Sir, Put Your Clothes Back On And Step Away From The Ledge
by Mitchell Maurer on Sep 21, 2009 12:22 PM CDT
in Green Bay Packers Analysis
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PrintAfter the second week of the season, Green Bay is tied with Chicago at 1-1 in the division. Minnesota predictably went up to 2-0 by beating the Lions, who seem destined to finish in 4th place, at least in 2009.
My point? This is exactly where everyone thought we would be. I'm surprised at the fashion in which Green Bay lost to Cincinnati, but I'm not shocked that the much-improved Bengals took the game. We are not a Super Bowl contender yet because we have to handle business during the regular season first. That means winning home games, beating beatable opponents, putting forth maximum efforts against high level teams, and most importantly, taking the division away from the rest of the NFC North. By losing to the Bengals, the Packers have shown that they're not quite ready for title contention. They could definitely beat the Rams next week and the Vikings after that, leaving them at 3-1 and a division lead, but even if they go 5-1 or 6-0 against NFC North teams, it won't mean much if they finish at 9-7.
I have been saying this for weeks now. I have been dropping words of warning left and right, about not to overlook opponents, not to be overconfident, and to not act like we've accomplished anything before the quarter mark of 2009. I've been accused of being negative, not having faith in the team, and not having a pulse as a fan. You can call me whatever you want, but I will never be delusional or fair-weathered. I think this team is capable of doing great things, but I doubt they're ready to truly show it yet. That's why you won't hear me talking Super Bowl after week 1 and top-5 draft pick after week 2.
That's why the title is what it is. People are losing their minds because the Packers lost to a team that wasn't as good as they were. But that's not what happened. What really happened was the Packers lost to a team that is much improved from the last few years of incredible suckitude, took advantage of weaknesses in Green Bay's roster, and out-pushed, out-ran, and out-played Green Bay on Sunday.
Since I didn't get a chance to actually see the game, I'm only going to hit on a few points. If you want a more in-depth review, check out Brandon's articles.
- Youngest team in the league = penalties galore. No amount of coaching is going to be able to remove mistakes stemming from inexperience. Unless of course its Al Harris' aggressiveness or Jarrett Bush's complete ineptitude, which are different issues entirely.
- Aaron Rodgers still doesn't have a turnover, which is remarkable. He's been sacked 10 times, hit several more, and he's only coughed up the football once, and it was recovered by Green Bay. Just imagine what he could do with some protection. If it were me under center, I'd have night terrors by now.
- O-Line depth is a huge problem, and the blame lies mainly with GM Ted Thompson. Multi-position backups are fine to have, but you can't have them starting and/or playing at critical positions. Daryn Colledge is a prime example. He played LT in college and made the transition to LG in the pros, where he started on Sunday. But when Clifton went down, you simply MUST have a backup for him instead of relying on Scott Wells to take Colledge's spot while Colledge slides over to the outside. It's a bad strategy and it showed yesterday.
Here's why this is Thompson's problem: the guy drafts by ability rather than position. I like that approach to a certain extent, but you're eventually going to have to find someone who actually, you know, plays the position you're looking to upgrade at. Seriously, go back and look at how many players Thompson has brought in and compare the position they played in college to what they're asked to play in Green Bay. With some (Daryn Colledge from LT to LG, Korey Hall from LB to FB), it works. But with others (Breno Giacomini from TE to T, Jason Spitz from G to C), it doesn't work as well. - Want another Thompson criticism? Keeping 3 fullbacks when RB and S depth is an issue, and the special teams still aren't able to do their jobs. The coverage units were subpar yesterday, but the biggest thing is that, without Atari Bigby or Nick Collins, the pass defense is in major trouble. And who's left that can play safety? Aaron Rouse (backup), Derrick Martin (converted CB/backup), Charles Woodson (starting CB, failed safety in 2008), and Jarrett Bush (horrible).
I swear to God, if I see that Jarrett Bush steps on the field while Aaron Rouse or Derrick Martin is available the sideline, I will flip out. - Receiver depth means nothing if your guys can't catch the football. Seriously, somebody needs to check this out. There were at least three dropped balls yesterday, and I'd bet there were at least three more I didn't hear about.
- Ryan Grant still not performing? Maybe if the playcalling were improved and the run game not abandoned in the second half, things might be different. He started out the game strong, but had 11 of his 14 carries before halftime. What gives?
Meanwhile, Cedric Benson had 29 carries for 141 yards, including 8 rushes of 6 yards or more. Ouch. - B.J. Raji can make or break the defensive line. His deactivation for the game was HUGE. It may be a baseless claim with no proof whatsoever, but I firmly believe that if Raji was in the game, Benson's yardage would have been cut down by half, and all those long gains would have been short-circuited quickly.
I do not understand what kept him from playing. Was his ankle injury that bad? If so, why was he practicing all week? Do the coaches think that a rotation of Jenkins-Jolly-Pickett-Montgomery is enough?
Again, having not watched the game, I can't really give any better impressions than that. Let 'er rip in the comments section.
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how the fuck is that a packer haiku?
where is there anything related to the packers, other than an nfl mention? if youre going to whore your site, dont falsify your advertising.
Because I still draw breath, and will be a sox fan for as long as I do. - larry
Actually, if you long beyond your anger after a loss........
It makes perfect sense. He’s trying to explain in his own unique way that there’s so much talent in the NFL now that a win at home by the Packers against a perceived “lesser” team can no longer just be assumed.
See? Isn’t it better when you can understand it?
"Remember kids......... petty and cheap shot-ish doesn't make you a true fan, it just makes you petty and cheap shot-ish."
by Themanthemyththelegend on Sep 21, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you always this condescending?
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 21, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions
have you read any of his other posts before?
Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb
its not anger.
and i hold by my comment above
Because I still draw breath, and will be a sox fan for as long as I do. - larry
good job for not watching!
I think most of the trouble thus far for the offense comes down too two things, the play calling and the OL. You hit it on the head with the running game. Grant had a few good runs and a few poor runs but they completely abandoned the running game thus poor play calling. The OL needs to open some holes for grant to hit too.
The passing game… yes the recievers are dropping some balls that are very catchable. However is it the timing? the WRs getting it faster than they expect? Rodgers is having trouble back their due to the pressure. He has to to get balls out faster yet he seems to be overthrowing many of his balls. Not just overthrowing them by being deep but he is lacking a touch on his ball. I noticed yesterday he was gunning balls that needed a bit of a touch on them. He also seemed to be looking at one WR. You can probably blame that on the OL too, since he doesnt have the time to go through all his reads. But I remember a 3rd down and he threw it deep to DD who was double covered when Jordy was wide open at the first down marker! And i think more proof of him not looking at all his reads is there were only what 3 balls towards Jennings the whole game.
I don't think you can chaulk them all up to timing
Maybe one or two, yes. But you have passes like the one to Jennings yesterday that hit him in the hands and he flat out didn’t catch it. That ended the first drive of the game.
We need a better O-line
until that happens this team won’t do anything. Making the offense a bit simpler wouldn’t hurt either.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
What I think if you care
The sacks were a result of the fach that your receivers were covered pretty well most of the game. Rogers had to check down because his 1st and 3nd WRs were not good options. I think we have one of the best backfields on football. Hall and Joseph are fast and talented and young. Our safetys will rock you. Our LBs are very fast and tough and our Dline os big and agressive. Frankly I expect our D to rate in the top 10 or with a little luck near the top 5. If you think your team got beat by a bad team I can understand that, after all everyone calls us the Bungles for a reason. Hell we almost bungled the game yesterday. Another 15 seconds on the clock and it could have been another win for you and a loss for us. We have a lot of work to do but we will get better every game – win or lose barring injury of course.. You have a good team who had a bad day against a team that had a good enough day performance wise to overcome errors. Carson practically handed you two TDs. Carson is not season ready yet but now he has a D that can keep him in games. If we can get our O back into 05-07 form we will be very tough to beat. We are not the Bungles anymore.
" My enemy said "Love your enemy". I obeyed and loved myself." Gibran
It's mostly on the offensive line
Every position group played terrible yesterday except for the corners (even though Tramon Williams gave up a few too many). Offense, Defense, Special Teams. They all sucked.
You definitely have to give credit to the Bengals. They’re a solid team, but the Packers would’ve lost to just about any team in the league yesterday. The offensive line is the only group to suck both last week and this week.
by FavreSucks on Sep 21, 2009 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
One word:
Drops. Our pass catchers seem to be failing at their primary task. That troubles me almost as much as the lack of pass protection.
"Brandon Jennings needs a nickname before he gives himself one. Oh wait, Young Money, he already did."
by Mitchell Maurer on Sep 21, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sorry but the drops yesterday weren't really an issue after the first series.
Jennings and Finley both had drops early on but after that there were about 2 more in 50 plays from scrimmage, one of which came from Grant who’s going to drop one pass out of every 5 he’s thrown because he’s just not very good out of the backfield.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 21, 2009 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, but the effect of those drops
Jennings: Punt
Grant: TO, TD on the resulting drive.
The drops were almost more killer than the play of the O-Line.
I couldn't disagree more, but whatever.
To me the Jennings drop was worse than Grant’s because it cost them the first down on the first series (plus it probably would have gone for 15 more yards). If you don’t want Grant to drop balls you better cut him. His hands have been awful from day 1. Blaming him for it is like blaming a blind man for not being able to see.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 21, 2009 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Grant's drop/fumble was the Pack's first series of the second half
The Packers had just stopped the Bengals on the first series and had momentum building.
I never said that Grant’s was more costly, just pointing out that the drops WERE an issue because of when they occurred and the result. Both ended drives of importance (possessions which set the tone for the respective half). You never want to see drops, but a drop on first down, or even second and manageable, aren’t killers. The drop on third down, and the fumble completely ruining any and all momentum for the Packers. That’s why they’re an issue.
And as for cutting Grant, you play with the hand you’re dealt. As long as he’s the #1 RB on the depth chart, he’s my (and our) man. At this point you work on it in practice and hope he improves. That’s all you can hope for at this point.
I'm not talking about his fumble.
Fumbles obviously are more crippling than virtually any dropped pass and I’m not trying to minimize it’s impact. It was huge as turnovers almost always are.
I’m talking about the dropped outlet pass (ruled incomplete) that occurred a drive or two before the fumble. You can hope for Grant’s pass catching to improve if you like, but I’m not holding out any hope. It’s just not what he’s good at and the Packers know it. If they’re going to ask him to do something that lies outside of his comfort zone I’m not going to get on him for failing. If they want outlet passes to the RB to be a significant part of their offense they should get someone other than Grant to do it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 21, 2009 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Two words.
Grant is dookie right now. He needs to get better or they need to give someone else carries or bring another back in.
Second the o-line needs to get tough. They play scared. They need to get into a fight or something. Get a bloody nose.
I'm not pleased with Grant
But he has shown some burst from time to time. They need to stay committed to the run. I’d like to think Jackson will help once he comes backbut who knows. Without any help on the Oline not sure what difference that will make
Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb
I've never been a fan
I felt he was overrated from day one. I was glad when TT wasn’t giving him his money, then he DID. I think he came in and there were a lot of factors that came into play. The longer the season goes on, the better the new linemen were getting…later in the season, teams that play outdoors are forced to run more because of the elements…terrible efforts by the guys before him. I think he is just at best an average back…but one that in the right system (read Denver under Shanahan) could flourish. Our line isn’t good enough for an average back. Sure Adrian Peterson, Barry Sanders, etc could still be productive with this line, but not someone like Grant. We either need serious upgrades in the line or in the backfield.
I must say
Ryan Grant has a little to do with Greenbays running attack, but by no means is he bad. Just like any other team in the NFL, when your offensive line has issues it makes whoever is touching the ball in the backfield look bad. Aaron Rodgers getting sacked 5 times against the Bungles and 5 times against the bears is unexceptable. Either the O-line gets it in gear or we’re looking at a repeat of last season.
And further more if the running game isnt productive in the first half, why waste your time with it in the second half? Let me tell you why. First off it mixes up and confuses the defense, and secondly you always have a chance to pull off a big run. It happens all to often in football. I must say shame-shame to Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson.
by ARod4President on Sep 21, 2009 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
Although Grant is far from great, it would be hard for many backs to get through with that joke of a line. Look at AP, he is by far the best back in the league but don’t overlook the fact he has a very solid line in front of him with one of the best guards in Hutchinson and a solid run blocker in McKinnie.
by Charlie Kelly on Sep 21, 2009 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Offensive Line
If Rodgers wasn’t looking for Jordy Nelson or his 3rd or 4th options, it’s because of his “happy feet” from being sacked 10 times in 2 games.
I think the offensive staff kind of , sort of lost any faith in the running game after missing on 2 consecutive late in the 2nd quareter (2 and 2 and 3rd and 2)
For me, it all begins and ends in the trenches…. when Clifton went out, it was basically lights out.
And that was Grant's/The Offense's problem last year
2nd and short, 3rd and short, Grant couldn’t get it done.
The musical chairs: Round two
Blow up the Oline! Throw Wells in at left tackle! Plug Harrell in at left guard, see what happens!
hahaha ok seriously, this is what I want to see next game
Colledge, Spitz, Wells, Sitton, Giacomni
oh and call up Meredith from the practice squad and activate Lang
Is this what I want? No, but its the best we can put out and next year, I expect at least one major tackle signing to join the middle three of Colledge, Spitz, and Sitton and fill the other spot via trade/draft/signing
On that fly to right-center
I kinda expected JD to plow into Rios with an ATV.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
by Sox Machine on Aug 17, 2009 7:35 PM PDT reply recommended Unrec 3
I'm I the only one
who thought the line backers in the middle were pretty awful yesterday?
"That's not a weird stat. Rickie is a run-scorer," Yost said. "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter," Yost told reporters. "See, you guys have no concept. He's a run-scorer. So there's nothing weird about it. That's what he does."
Missed Tackles...
That really gets to me more than anything else…
Offensive Line
I thought the O-Line was opening some pretty nice holes early on, it looked to me like Grant was walking to the line and he was being arm tackled left and right on first contact. Either way, poor results is why we abandoned the run, which we really shouldn’t have, but I didn’t really feel like it was an O-line issue so much as it was our RB not hitting the holes with any sort of speed or power.
Multiple issues
The O-line will play better. They also have to finish off blocks and not let Rodgers get flattened after he throws the ball. This will happen but should not happen six times a game. If Clifton’s ankle isn’t falling off, he should play too. Wrap it up and strap it up Chad. The best blockers should be playing and it is time for Barbre to find his manhood and put in some good performances.
Grant was showing some decent explosion prior to last week. It is as much his fault as the lines in the last two games. Watch those Petersen films Ryan.
Lastly, give credit to the Bengals. The sun does not shine on the same dogs behind each week but maybe it finally is for the Bengals. They put in a really good performance
So... Clifton's major shortcoming is his mobility...
and you want him to play on a bad ankle? To go along with the rest of his lower body that is crippled by past injuries? He has great hands technique, good footwork, and good strength in the upper body… but if the man cannot move, he is not one of the “best blockers.” He can be effective in pass protection when his ankle heals, but run blocking requires burst, mobility, and flexibility that he just doesn’t have anymore. He can’t stretch the line when he leads the frontside, and he has major problems on the backside.
Colledge has potential at LT. He could be an upgrade in run blocking over Clifton. It’s really up to him right now.
by RobertArthur on Sep 22, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Clifton hasn’t been a good run-blocker…ever. When healthy he is a dominant pass blocker but he has always lacked the explosiveness to be a dominant run blocker
"I agree but dont agree"
by juggernaut400 on Sep 22, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually, I don't think 2 picks and all the penalties they had does amount to a good performance for the Bengals.
Just because it was better than ours doesn’t make it good.
I was impressed by their O-line, however, and their corners.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 22, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Their oline has FIVE new face…FIVE. How do they put together a performance like that against our team only to see ours fall apart. yikes.
Wow.
I didn’t know that.
I didn’t think I could get more depressed about that game.
Thanksfor proving me wrong. ;)
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 22, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions
3 Key Plays
3 big plays in the first 3 quarters completely changed this game.
1) Early in the second, GB has scored 14 straight pts, had a defensive stop, and Grant ran for 8 yds on first down. GB runs again on second down for no gain, 3rd and 2. Whoever called the play for 3rd down should be declared brain dead. A run for the 3rd play in a roll that was completely suffed? Talk about predictible. On this play a nice rollout with the opotion for Rodger to hit a short route or take it himself would have had a much higher probablility of success. This amazingly bad play call killed a drive, and on the punt, Cinc. returned it into the red zone and scored 7.
2) 3rd and 35 and the defense lets Cinc. convert? This play alone made GB deserve to lose. enough said about this one.
3) In the 3rd Grant fulmbles after a short reception.
Had GB performed better on these three plays, I think they had a great chance to take control of the game and come out on top. 2 week, 2 very disappointing performances. Hope we can imporve next week and be ready for the Vikings. GO PACK!!!
As I discussed in the game thread
3rd and 34 was a fluke. The biggest “crime” was going for a strip instead of tackling the guy, but even then, I don’t fault the D for going for the strip. Ball catapults forward 15 yards, opposite the direction of the converging defense, but allowing the offense to pursue the ball in stride.
Run that play 99 more times, and the Bengals don’t convert on any of them. Was it a game changer? Yes (especially in combination with the next play, the flea flicker). But I find it hard to fault the performance of the defense, who were clearly playing in a “prevent the Bengals from getting 35 yards” mode, for giving up 25 yards and then a fluky fumble. It is one of those plays that you simply have to forget.
I don't buy the "young teams commit lots of penalties regardless of coaching" line.
The NFL does an excellent job of burying it’s penalty statistics so it’s hard to prove otherwise. Looking at the Packers statistics alone, they’ve been the youngest team in the league for 4 consecutive seasons now (2006-2009), all under McCarthy. I know that Thompson jams young players at McCarthy so he has only limited control over the age of his roster, but the reality is that under McCarthy the average accepted penalties committed by the Packers per season has gone from 5.5 in 2006 to nearly 7 in 2008.
Thus far in 2009, the Packers had 6 accepted penalties in week 1 and 11 in week 2. Youth aside, the numbers are getting worse instead of better and if you go position by position, the only place where we’re getting significant snaps from players with less than 3 years in the league (and most under McCarthy) are LB (Matthews), 3rd and 4th WR, 2nd TE and at various positions on the OL. It’s not like we’re starting a half dozen rookies or second year guys on both sides of the ball. Hopefully the Cincy game will be an abberation in more ways than one, but regardless of youth, teams don’t stay in at or near the top of the league in number of penalties for 2+ years unless the coaches aren’t making it a point of emphasis or are unaware how to get their players to pay attention to detail.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 21, 2009 8:37 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Part of the problem with penalties in the past was our defensive approach. You have to accept that you are going to have at least one or two a game called on your corners when you are playing the aggressive bump at the line approach. Its been status quo on that D for YEARS. BUT now that is gone and the number of penalties like that have dropped. The problem is that everyone else is picking up where they were…its sloppy and unacceptable!!
I know it's still early but..
Hopefully this will result in the firing of McCarthy. I’m fine with Thompson but McCarthy needs to go. His offense is overly complicated and worthless, he brings no fire or attitude to the team other than complacency. This team hasn’t had a good coach since Holmgren and we need someone like him who will demand nothing less from his players than greatness. Maybe I’m jumping the gun here but I’ve seen very little from McCarthy so far that leads me to believe he can be a Championship coach. Maybe Holmgren or Cowher will be looking to get out of retirement next season.
Well, in McCarthy's defense
I offer the exhibit A: Season, The 2007. The Packers were one idiot gunslinger throw away from a NFC Championship.
I agree that he’s made questionable calls, but what offensive coordinator hasn’t? The fact remains, no offensive play will work if the front five aren’t doing their jobs well.
Hey people lets do this…lets leave out ALL references to Favre from now on. We are in the second season without him. He’s gone. He’s moved on. We’ve moved (well the team has). Whats done is done. Lets not rip on him or praise him, just leave him out of all posts that have to do with the current packer team.
I don't disagree
But was pointing out that McCarthy can be a championship coach, because he’s had teams one mistake away from being the SB
Another Thompson criticism...
Where’s the Great White(and Orange) hype, Harrell?!?! We go to the 3/4 and this guy from Tennessee that we paid millions too can’t get his wide ass out of the training room!! BRING BACK MARK TAUCHER FOR GOD’S SAKE!! Barbre can’t stop these guys, if we played the Raven’s(maybe we do this season) Ray Lewis would take Aaron’s head off.
I do think if we get BJ back in, the run defense will strengthen. Charles Woodson should NOT be our leading tackler on the defense!!
some good some bad...
I agree that ideally you don’t want a corner as your leading tackler…this should be a MLB or something. Woodson is ALL over the field though, not just covering a WR. its not shocking that he is leading the team so far…he’s been playing out of his mind.
Harrell is hurt…he’s always hurt. He’s a bust. Lets put it to a rest. Yeah TT screwed up there…NO ONE denies that. Enough on Harrell…he’s dead to me.
Taucher is not ready for football…won’t be for at least a month or so. If he played now he’d be injured all over again in a game. He’s not an option, please move on.
Raji should be a nice addition to the team when hes ready to go. I’ll reserve too much of my excitement until I see him do something but the talent sure is there. He could be our Kevin Williams if he gets on the field…hopefully he’s not Justin Harrell part 2!
In responce
Always nice to see someone without coaching experience say who should or should not play in a game and what play to call. Second, you said it yourself, the Pack got outplayed, so why the rub on Grant, he never did get much blocking but, when he did he took advcantage of it.
I have to believe it what a good thing the Pack lost sunday, ALOT of players ego’s needed some adjustment. Preseason set em up for a fall, good thing it happened early in the season because I believe they will continue to get better as the season progresses. Remember it’s a long (but not long enough) season and the THIRD GAME hasn’t begun.
New Bengals???
Has anyone really looked closely at the Bengals team this year??? They are one play away from being 2-0 and also one play away from being 0-2 (the same could be said of the Packers). I was at the game on Sunday and I think we will see at seasons end that this Bengals team is going to be much better then everyone thinks. Remember, this is the NFL and going from last to first and back again is a very narrow window. If the Packers continue to show problems in the O-line and D-line it will be a long season, but this loss to a good Bengals team may turn out to be not so surprising by seasons end.
Its possible.
They are better than they were last year. People forget Palmer was out all year…imagine how terrible we would have been sans Rodgers or in the past sans Favre. The ARE better than what people think based off last year, but they still aren’t THAT good.
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