Mike McCarthy: What Went Wrong Against the Bengals
All the following quotes are from Mike McCarthy's Monday press conference. Although I'll skip the part about the injuries to LT Chad Clifton, S Nick Collins, and S Aaron Rouse. We'll know more about all three on Wednesday when they are listed on the injury list.
Q: How do you explain the issues up front with protection?
A: ...As we talked about as a staff today, we could have had nine-man protections on a couple of those where we flat-out just get beat, one individual gets beat fundamentally, and it causes a sack and a quarterback hit that we need to eliminate from our play. I'm not going to go overboard here, but four of those sacks in the last two weeks are totally uncalled for. They're unacceptable to get beat the way that we did and hit the quarterback. That's just something we have to correct on the field...
Back in 2008, the Packers were bad in pass protection. Clifton allowed a lot of sacks, but that could be excused because he battled a lot of injuries. LG Daryn Colledge also surrendered too many sacks, but his problems might have been a result of Clifton's struggles. Colledge was battling an ankle sprain, so he deserves some credit for playing through it, but if he wasn't ready to play, then the coaches and medical staff shouldn't let him play. The key part of the quote is that McCarthy said they could have gotten beat if they "had nine-man protections on a couple of those" sacks. He's not calling out any players, but the individual players are not getting the job done.
Q: Could you talk about your decision to keep Raji out again and what his prospects are?
A: ... We just didn't feel he was 100 percent...
Q: What about the defense's inability to stop the run. What's the issue there?
A: It all fits into gap control and staying in your gaps. Tackling was an issue throughout the game yesterday...
Run defense was the achilles heel of the 2008 team, and it's showing it's ugly head again in 2009. 141 yards and almost 4.9 yards/carry was unacceptable against a running back who struggles to average over 4 yards/carry. I've been reading about blown gap responsiblity for months. This is not a one game problem; it was an all 2008 problem. But I'll let this one go for at least one more week. The defensive front seven was the same group last Sunday that struggled against the run for all of 2008, except LB Clay Matthews was playing. He should help. And NT B.J. Raji should be an improvement over NT Ryan Pickett, which should help the run defense. This is a danger area, something to watch closely in the future, but it might need a couple more weeks to adapt to Dom Capers's new 3-4 defense and await the addition of Raji.
One more thing on gap control; it looked like a problem on special teams too. If he wasn't to blame, I apologize in advance, but it looked like LB Jeremy Thompson blew his gap assignment on punt coverage and allowed a giant hole for WR Quan Cosby to return it to the Packers' 6 yard line.
Q: Are you seeing the hits Rodgers is taking affect the way he's playing?
A: ...You don't want him looking over his left shoulder and things like that. I don't see any of that going on, but Aaron has done a good job playing with his feet...
Maybe he should be looking over his shoulder. I thought he looked nervous against the Bears, but against the Bengals, he probably stayed in the pocket longer than he should've. His answer was a little odd; the hits aren't bothering Rodgers, but he's doing a good job running for his life! I'm sure he just meant it as a compliment; Rodgers's 4th quarter scrambles set up the final FG drive.
Q: Your receivers work on the jugs machine all the time. Are you surprised by the number of drops in the first two weeks?
A: ...We start the game with two dropped balls and then we go out on defense and let him run the ball down the field. That's not the way you start games at home...
Yep.
Q: On Bush's second false start, were you ready to yell at him there and you just had to calm him down?
A: On the false start? Yeah, pre-snap penalties, there is no excuse, whether it's an offensive tackle or a gunner. It's all the same. This is the National Football League...
I'm just going to stop here. It feels like more went wrong in this game then went right. If it weren't for the two huge INTs by CB Charles Woodson, the Bengals might have won that game 31-10, or 45-10. It might have been a blowout, but instead they were 10 yards away from forcing the game into OT.
They've got a lot to prove. If the offensive line can't pass protect, and the defensive front seven can't stop the run, then they'll be lucky to win 6 games again this season. Turning it around next week against St. Louis will be a start.
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"What went wrong" Haiku
First they took the field
Then Bengals kicked off to Pack
All downhill from there
www.PackerHaiku.com
Clark Osborn - PackerHaiku.com | FavreHaiku.com | BadgerHaiku.com
Is this just a hobby of yours, or is this your full-time occupation
because it seems you have one of these things for every post. StRaNgE.
Green and Gold / Black, and White
The cost of change
Tom Pelissero has a nice analysis of the breakdown in our run defense. It’s in the middle of this article:
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090921/PKR01/90921204/1058
Seems that Packers failed to adjust to overloaded lines. This would be the learning curve with the 3-4 so many talked about before the season.
The poor tackling is separate issue.
by 50 years and Counting on Sep 22, 2009 7:57 AM CDT reply actions
Great link
I didn’t even notcie during the game that they had brought in an extra olineman. I think our biggest struggle really was just with tackling. 9 missed tackles? With 4 of them being behind the line of scrimmage. Pickett had 2 chances, Harris had 1, and practically our whole team had a chance on that 3rd and 2.
by packallday555 on Sep 23, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Listened to Mcarthy's press conference yesterday,
and he didn’t seem overly worried about the injuries to Collins and Clifton. I hope he’s correct
Green and Gold / Black, and White
I like McCarthy, but I don't think he knows what the word "unacceptable" means...
If a player is routinely making mental errors, you need to eventually reach the conclusion that these cannot be “corrected” or “cleaned up” by anything less than a roster move. If something is “unacceptable,” then quit accepting it.
The McCarthy approach tends to believe in the power of coaching; that every mistake a player makes can be prevented through teaching and persuasion. I applaud his confidence in his staff and his high opinion of the players. However, that plan needs some stick to go along with the carrot.
McCarthy does not make roster moves
And I certainly would not advocate giving him the power to do so. Yes, he can talk to, yell at, demand whatever from TT, but in the end, he deals with what he’s got.
Good response.
Its McCarthy’s job to coach. He takes what he is given and works with it. If he has three sucky guys at a position, its his job to realize which one sucks the least and work with him as much as you can to eliminate the sucktitude.
What is he supposed to say there? Yeah our guys frickin blow I wish I could get someone else in here. That does nothing but KILL the confidence of the guys in there and for what? There isn’t someone sitting out there that is better (most likely). Its highly unlikely that we’ll pull a trade off so there is really no good to come from throwing a player under the bus publically in week 2.
Well, obviously...
…McCarthy does not make roster decisions by himself. He does, however, have an office that is very close to the General Manager’s and they discuss the roster together when appropriate. TT has explained that process many times. The head coach, as well as the entire coaching staff, has valuable input into all roster decisions. If McCarthy felt strongly about a player, those ideas would be given very strong consideration.
And just as obviously, I don’t expect any head coach to say, “our guys fricken blow” and start throwing players “under the bus.” I simply suggest that a player — or any employee — needs to understand that the word “unacceptable” means that their employer will eventually stop accepting it. There are players on the current roster that have been making the same mental errors for 3 seasons. The team seems to have an infinite amount of patience for it, yet still seems disappointed when they keep happening. After a while, it undermines the authority of the coaching staff.
If it isn’t obvious, I’m mainly talking about Jarrett Bush. He seems like a great guy, and I’m sure his teammates like him. I’m sure the coaching staff likes him. However, he keeps making the same mistakes. He’s on the lowest 10% of the roster order, and he has a small contract. The harsh reality is that there are street free agents or practice squad guys who could replace him right now. Yet, the Packers keep trying to fix him with coaching and team loyalty. Where are they going to draw the line? Is there even a line?
I think the team’s commitment to loyalty is admirable. I think their choice to think the best of every player is admirable. They can do those things, and still deal with the ultimate consequences of failure. I just haven’t seen them do it.
by RobertArthur on Sep 22, 2009 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
you think Thompson has loyalty?
otherwise agree
On that fly to right-center
I kinda expected JD to plow into Rios with an ATV.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
by Sox Machine on Aug 17, 2009 7:35 PM PDT reply recommended Unrec 3
They keep bringing in guys, draft picks, even low level free agents…yet Bush stays. I don’t think its loyalty I think its lack of competition. He’s very low on the totem pole. I think he probably gets a boost because they feel he can play two positions (CB and S). Hopefully someone will unseat him soon though.
Amen
Finally someone who feels the same way I do about Bush. The guy is horrible. There is no way in hell, he is a better player then Anthony Smith.
by packallday555 on Sep 23, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I like McCarthy as well but...
I agree with you in that he overestimates the power of coaching. I think football is 50/50. I think the coaching and their schemes are half of the puzzle and having good players is an equal half of the puzzle. McCarthy thinks a little bit more practice, a little bit more coaching, and a little bit more experience will make everyone they draft a good player but that’s just not the case.
You need a handful of good players on each side of the ball who would stand out as being good even on the worst teams with the worst coaching. McCarthy can’t transform everyone on offense to be a Pro Bowler and likewise Capers can’t do that for the defense. They have a good solid team overall but they need an impact offensive lineman, an impact running back and a nasty ILB who can stand up FB’s and Centers which Barnett and Hawk cannot do.
McCarthy is overrated
The Packers are not the team everyone thinks they are. They have a poor defense and an average offense. There is lots of young talent, but the key word is young, No OL depth and a thin defensive front 7 that no team will have problems against will sink them by week 10,. The best thing they could do is to realize that McCarthy is not the coach that can take them to the next level.
Whoa
Don’t know whether your a Pack fan or not but I hope your not. Poor defense? They have had a vey good game and a poor game defensively, I don’t know if we can say their poor already. Like someone pointed out above we had trouble against their overload blocking, which was noticeable as it seemed on every one of there runs we had guys penetrating all around where they were going to run too. It definitely helped that Cincy is accustom to playing against 3-4’s at least 6 times a year, because all the blitzes that worked so wonderfully against the Bears, only worked about half of the time against Cincy. It also didn’t help that Collins and Bigby were out because Capers got very conservative and as we all know from last year that’s not what we need.
The offense is average because of our oline. If they could block anybody we would probably be top 5 in the league. I really hope the line just needs to gel together, and make some adjustments because our offense is our strongest point easily.
by packallday555 on Sep 22, 2009 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
We can relax...
or we can ask “what’s going on?” The Packers didn’t have a “very good game” defensively against the Bears. Jay Cutler blew up ala early vintage Brett Favre. Three of his four INTs were thrown right to Packer defenders. Those three INTs weren’t high pressure situations either. One of them gave the Pack the ball on the Bears one yard line. Without the resulting TD the Green and Gold loses that game and is 0 – 2. What about the turnover deep in Bears territory because the Center thought he had a delay of game penalty on the Pack? Sure we can say that luck works both ways. The Pack had the ball on the 10 at the end of the game Sunday, and 15 more seconds, yaddah yaddah yaddah. It’s not very often that an onside kick works when everyone is expecting it, The Packers shouldn’t have to rely on luck to win home games.
What’s going on?
I have never been a fan of the 3 - 4 defense
It seems to me there is a reason the majority of teams don’t play it. In the Packer’s case the D-lone is suspect (IMHO). The LBs are stronger, but Kampman is better closer to the line of scrimmage than he is in space. Hawk and Barnett are undersized for the middle, especially considering that Pickett and Raji are not dominant at the NT position. A great 3 – 4 needs to be anchored in the middle. Matthews looks pretty good, but he is young. Poppinga is alright.
The Pack can expect more overload blocking. It has long been the answer to running against the 3 – 4 defense so it won’t go away next week. All the defensive blitzes will be game planned, much like the Bengals did on Sunday. They will continue to work more like they did in the Bengals game than they did in the Bears game unless new schemes and packages are installed.
On offense Spitz and Colledge each slide over a position. So that means 3/5 of the positions will be manned by new guys. How is the O-line is supposed to get better and stop allowing sacks?
That brings us back to coaching. Let’s see what McCarthy and Capers come up with against the Rams. This should be an easy win, and a chance to prepare for the Vikings. The results on Sunday will reveal a lot about the coaches.
Right
And Raji looked dominant in preseason when he did play the NT position. Yes, I know it was preseason but he was still playing against starters. In seriously no more then 4-5 minutes against Tennessee I think Raji had 4 tackles, 1 for a loss, and a sack. He looked dominant and likely will end up being dominant. Also Belarus, you don’t give Pickett enough credit. He had some good penetration against the Bengals, getting into the backfield multiple times, but either missing a tackle, or being to slow to run Benson down.
by packallday555 on Sep 24, 2009 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Personally, I don't agree with the move to the 3-4 either
The defense looked fine most of 2007 but fell apart in 2008, I don’t think Sanders was a very good defensive coordinator but I think most of 08’s failure was due to a lack of personnel especially on the front four. They lost both Jenkins and Corey Williams which took away the pass rush they had in 2007. And I feel like having that weak front four made the linebackers look worse due to offensive line men getting upfield and blocking them. What bothers me most about the 3-4 is how they’ve taken one of their best players and moved him to a spot where he looks stiff and uncomfortable. Now eventually will Kampman become as good of an LB as a DE? Maybe, but he’s not getting any younger and personally I like the idea of a front four consisting of Jenkins, Picket, Raji, and Kampman. I think we would have something similar to what they have in Minnesota only with a better secondary.
Also, you took about the success of the 3-4 and yes the Steelers who are arguably the best defense run a 3-4 but the Ravens have switched to a 4-3 and seven of last years top ten defenses ran a 4-3. I don’t think one is really better than the other, it all comes down to personnel and I think the Packers fit the 4-3 better.
by Charlie Kelly on Sep 24, 2009 6:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Hybrid is the way to go
Capers ran a couple of immensely successful 3-4, 4-3 hybrids as a DC and I think that’s what he should do for the Packers. I like three types of defenses in this league. The Blitzburgh 3-4 that’s all about getting to the QB and mucking up running lanes, the former Ravens and Patriots 3-4 that is about being sound in the front 7 and stuffing the run, and the 4-3’s formerly run by Jim Johnson with the Eagles that blitz the QB into submission.
The reason Sanders/Bates scheme sucked was because the QB would have all day to throw unless the front 4 got to him. This defense worked fine if you had a great d-line like the Packers in 07’ and played against average or bad teams but it never worked against great offensive teams or great QB’s. You have to get to the QB in this league to be successful and the 4-3 scheme by itself can’t do that unless you have a great d-line or complicated blitz packages like the Eagles. The 3-4 at least has the ability to create chaos even without the necessary players on occasion. The Packers didn’t have that.
Now hybrid is where it’s at because I think the Packers have a great front 4 like you mentioned with a line of Kampman, Raji, Pickett, and Jenkins, but they also have a bunch of LB’s so being in the 3-4 in situations where the run or pass is an equal possiblity would benefit them. Guys like Kampman, Barnett, and Hawk are better in a 4-3 but guys like Chillar, Matthews, and Bishop are better in a 3-4 and Jenkins, Raji, and Pickett can be successful in both. They have a perfect group of players to mix between 4-3 and 3-4 based on the team they’re playing.
Against the Bears the 3-4 worked perfectly even though they used a lot of nickel again. Against the Vikings I would use a base 4-3 with Kamp, Pick, Raji, and Jenkins as the d-line, and Hawk, Barnett, and Bishop at LB to stop Peterson. That front 4 would stifle the Vikings o-line and at LB Hawk would maintain gap control and Barnett and Bishop would flow to the ball. I think a hybrid would fit this team absolutely perfectly.
Isn’t the defense a part of Cutler blowing up? You think he just self destructed because he didn’t feel like playing well? The defense was GREAT in that game. They were swarming all over the field. Gang tackling, taking great angles, making very athletic plays…if you don’t think the D played well against the bears, you didn’t watch the game.
All of the interceptions had someone coming right at him pressuring him. I am sorry you watched a different game. You can try to be doom and gloom but if the offense does ANYTHING against the bears in that game we blow them out. It goes both ways…stop trying to paint a worse picture than it is. If yo uwant to focus on a bad defensive look no further than last week. It was like a totally different team. No tackling, no athletic plays, etc.
You make good points
Maybe I am being too critical of the defense. My main gripe is with the coaching and a very real distaste for the 3 – 4 defense.
You're 3-4 hate is ridiculous
The best two defenses in the league (Steelers and Ravens) have been 3-4 defenses and the team of the decade (the Patriots) also run a 3-4. Your dislike for the 3-4 has no merit.
This post is why people don’t understand your rhetoric. You’ve been bashing the 3-4 defense when the teams that have run it the last few years have had the best defenses. How do you conclude that it’s a bad defense than?
See my response below
Kansas City, Jacksonville, Cleveland. The league is littered with poor and mediocre 3 – 4s.
So, in conclusion class:
There are good 3-4’s, average 3-4’s, and bad 3-4’s. Therefore, just like every thing else in football, it’s how you use the tool which makes it useful or not.
All of those teams
Just recently changed to the 3-4 and all had pretty poor talent defensively, which is not the case for us. Don’t you think there is a reason teams continue to change to the 3-4 defense?
by packallday555 on Sep 24, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions
If I'm not mistaken
The Ravens recently switched back to a base 4-3, and there is a rumor the Patriots are switching back to the 4-3 as well (Possibly why they traded Seymour)
by Charlie Kelly on Sep 23, 2009 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for the comment troll
Nothing to see here gang, no rubber necking please.
Honestly, that's your best?
So you are happy with the results? Let’s see. The Bengals scored 31 points on the Pack… the Bengals… 31! The Bears lost because of 4 turnovers and a dumb Center. The Packers could easily have been 0 – 2 in two home games. You are no Packer fan if you are satisfied with the results of weeks 1 & 2. McCarthy needs to move along – and you need to quit living in denial.
Do you copy and paste...
the same comments over and over in every thread because you can’t think off the top of your head? You’ve put the same comments word for word in every thread. When you say the Packers defense sucks and Pickett and Raji (who hasn’t even played yet) suck then no one will take you seriously. The defense had one bad game and the front 7 is the opposite of thin, they are deep. They can’t even play all the guys they wanna play because they have too many LB’s.
Every thread?
I posted the original comments on two threads. So what? You are over reacting because you don’t like what I am saying. Danwood posted the same dismissive insults on my comments at both threads. Those comments called me a child and were insulting but I don’t see you criticizing him/her for it. I’ll give you credit for at least saying why you disagree with what I said, and I’ll respond respectfully.
I never said the Packers defense sucks. I said it is poor. Do you really believe the Pack can give up 23 points and 335 yards per game and be called strong? Home games nonetheless. The front 7 is not deep, especially on the D-Line. They’d better hope there aren’t any injuries. Even in the LB corp there is a significant drop off after the starting 4. As I said, Matthews looks good, and I believe he’ll play well, but he is young. He hasn’t proven himself yet. Barnett and Hawk are fine LBs, but not really well suited for plugging the run in the middle of a 3 – 4 when the NT position is only average. The point I made about the NT position is that neither Pickett nor Raji are dominant enough at the position to make the middle of the Packers 3 – 4 solid especially against the run. The comment had nothing to do with playing time – just position depth.
I have an opinion different than yours, but it’s no less valid than yours.
There were the only two comments you had posted on here
And the rest were on the Vikings site. Sure aren’t making a good name for yourself.
Let’s go through my trollish checklist:
1. Just joined the site today? Check
2. Minimal number of posts, all with the same content? Check
3. Hopeless bashing of the team this site is about, without any sort of data behind statements or constructive comments of how to mitigate problems? Check
4. More posts on the rivals site? Check
If you wanted to be taken seriously on this site, simply posting “teh team sux0rs, teh d0nt st@nd a ch@nc3” in a couple of threads isn’t going to do it.
Shout down?
I did just join this site yesterday. I love football, so posting at multiple sites is something I enjoy doing. That shouldn’t be a surprise. You obviously have done the same. I have different user names at some other sites too. I can assure you that I have posted many times before at many different sites, but not here. I actually like the Packers, the Bears, and the Vikings. My posts about the Packers are born out of outrage more than dislike. To borrow MM’s phrase, I don’t think the coaching is “acceptable”, and that incudes running a 3 – 4 defensive scheme.
You say I don’t use data, but I don’t see data posted by you to refute my statements. In fact, I don’t see data in many of the posts at this site or other sites, but you don’t question them. Posting is all about expressing opinions. I accept yours. I have never said the Packers suck, but you have tried to put those words in my mouth. Everything I have posted here has been respectful. I have gone into detail about the reasons why I have my opinions.
The biggest difference between our posts is that I post about the Packers, but you post about me. Your posts are figuratively speaking an attempt to shout me down. Why do my posts make you feel threatened so much?
Clearly
to me it seems you’re a Vikings fan first, which is why you’re here bashing on the Packers “weak” d-line and trumpeting opponents victories. Lets ask this question first and foremost, Mr Troll;
IF and its a big ole IF, but IF Aaron Rodgers doesn’t have a sieve for an o-line, where would the packers be? I’m betting 2-0 instead of being “lucky to be 1-1”
Five sacks doesn’t happen, it shouldn’t happen, its unacceptable. But if the Bengals don’t sack Rodgers, I’m 99 percent sure they lose. What happened in the pre-season (small sample size, admittedly) when Aaron could be allowed to make reads and plays? They were unstoppable on offense. The other team hitting the QB is what is making us lose, the defense is not what I’m worried about. It was their second game as a 3-4 unit and they went against a team that was prepared for it. Hopefully, Capers is a bit more aggressive instead of only blitzing on four drop-backs.
BTW Trollarus, you claiming to be a fan of the Vikings, the Bears, and the Packers sounds like a turtle-head pokin’ out, to put it in the words of a fat Scottish man.
I'm a football fan
I live in Minnesota, and cheer for the Vikings. But I have always liked the Packers and the Bears. There have even been some Lions teams during the Sanders years that I liked. I guess that makes me unique, or wierd. So be it.
I just gave you the data to prove you're a troll
And that’s a better response than a troll deserves
how can we us data
to refute statements made with nothing if not faulty data.
You’re right, Raji is not dominant. Poor guy can’t even get on the field. Fool.
Yeah once again you make no sense. You say Raji can’t hold down the NT spot and he didn’t even play in either of the first two games. How can you make that statement?
We will see how good Raji will be once he’s playing. I guarantee you in a couple of years Raji will be better than both of the Williamses. You talk to scouts, coaches, executives, Raji’s college and NFL teammates and they all say the guy is a 340lb. version of Warren Sapp. That’s terrible company right there.
Why do I repeat?
The point I made about the NT position is that neither Pickett nor Raji are dominant enough at the position to make the middle of the Packers 3 – 4 solid especially against the run. The comment had nothing to do with playing time – just position depth.
I said that in a post above, but that comment has been ignored and re-interpretted. Maybe Raji will be better than the Williamses in a couple of years. Who knows? But he isn’t ready now. That’s my point.
I also have said this weekend will prove a lot. If the Packers go on the road and win by a couple of TDs, MM will have gone a long way towards redeeming himself. Personally I hope they do. I want the NFC North to regain the luster that it lost over the past several years. I am tired of hearing about the South and the East divisions being the cream of the NFC crop. I would love to watch the North have truly meaningful divisional games in November and December again.
Once Again
The reason it’s hard to talk to you is because it feels like some of the comments you make come out of thin air and when other posters make good points it seems like they bounce off of your head.
You say I’m misinterpreting your comments but I’m not. You’ve said three times now that Pickett and Raji can’t hold down the NT position effectively. You also just stated that Raji isn’t ready now. How do you know this? The guy hasn’t played yet so your observation is baseless. In the two pre-season games that he played a lot he absolutely blew up the offensive lineman. Against Tennessee he made their left guard Eugene Amano, look like a little girl repeatedly.
How can you make an accurate claim that Raji isn’t better than Pat Williams as we speak? I’m not saying he is or isn’t because there’s nothing to base that opinion on so how can you?
History
In the history of the NFL, how often have rookie nose tackles been great in their first year? It’s a rugged position that’s hard to pace yourself for. It wears players down. Let’s see whether you are right or I am when he comes back.
Really, there is no basis for either of your arguments
Raji hasn’t played a down in a regular season so there is no way to know whether he’ll be a bust, an average player, or a superstar. Also, I don’t see how he’s trolling, he’s not just spouting out nonsense, he’s backed up what he has said. The Packers defense hasn’t looked that great. In the Bears game, they did but that was against a turnover prone QB who forces bad throws, who also has a set of very average receivers.
Personally, I think it’s too early to judge the defense. Hopefully, Capers will notice any issues and work on them before the next game.
by Charlie Kelly on Sep 23, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions
If he hasn't played a down
Then you can’t say he’s not dominate at the position. Which is why Belarus’ argument is non-existent at best and intentionally inflammatory.
There’s nothing to say about Raji’s regular season play, because there has been none. You can talk about why he’s been held out, how he has looked in practice, he college and preseason resume. But that’s not what Belarus is doing. He’s throwing flaming crap out there for the sake of throwing crap out there.
See, I’ll play his game. T-Jack is the best quarterback on the Vikings because he had a better QB rating, more yards per attempt, and fewer sacks than Brett Favre. Therefore, T-Jack should start against the 49ers and Favre should clean his jockstrap.
See how easy that was? Yeah, it’s called trolling.
Great Point
That’s all I’m trying to get at with Belarus. He makes statements that he can’t back up with any actual track record and he states things that are just false. Raji hasn’t played a regular season down. No one knows what Raji can do except Belarus I guess. He says the 3-4 sucks. The top 2 defenses in the league the past few years have been 3-4 defenses. The guy makes no sense.
All I'm saying in regards to Raji is that nobody knows what he'll be like
so it doesn’t make sense to criticize Belarus about saying he won’t be dominant. You can talk about college or preseason but many players flop after excelling in college and our offense looked unstoppable in the preseason.
by Charlie Kelly on Sep 23, 2009 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Then why not just say all players who haven't played a pro down suck?
There’s nothing you can do to refute the argument, so you’re just inciting arguments for the sake of inciting arguements.
0 out of 0 is not 0, it’s undefined. Which means it could be anything.
See, here I go:
John David Booty will be the wost professional QB ever. He has a noodle arm. He can’t read defenses and couldn’t tella blitz if his mother whispered one in his ear. He can’t even hand off the ball correctly, ever hand off he puts it in the guys’ helmet. Anyone who would draft him in their fantasy league deserves to have their wallet taken from them.
Go ahead, refute that.
I never said Raji was bad or good.
I’m saying it’s pointless to judge any player before they play a pro down. I never even said Raji was good or bad, I just said the argument about him between Belarus and you was pointless.
by Charlie Kelly on Sep 23, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Which is the definition of trolling
He started an argument for which there was no merit.
You're Right
It is too early to tell what this defense will become which is why I think it’s hilarious that people like Belarus are calling this a poor defense. With that said, Capers has a history of making previously run 4-3 teams very good 3-4 teams so I have hope.
You say though that there is no basis for either of our arguments. I didn’t definitively state Raji would be great (even though I think he will) but Belarus definitively stated that Picket and Raji can’t get the job done. All I was saying was Raji could be better than the Williamses but we don’t know that yet cause we haven’t seen him play. It’s all up in the air right now so how can Belarus make concrete statements?
When you tell Belarus he's wrong on Raji being a bust
Basically you’re saying he won’t be, that’s all I’m trying to say.
by Charlie Kelly on Sep 23, 2009 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree
I said Belarus is wrong to say that Raji won’t be effective because he hasn’t played yet. You’re saying we have no basis for either of our arguments.
I said he’s wrong because he doesn’t know. He nor I are right or wrong about what we think he will become but he’s wrong because he’s definitively stating that he won’t be effective.
The difference is in the statement
Belarus said “are not”. Not “probably won’t be,” or “past performance indicates he won’t be”. He said “are not.” That’s declaratory. That requires evidence, for which he has none. So his statement and argument fails.
So Belarus IS wrong because there is no evidence to prove one way or another. That does not mean he will be a star, or even serviceable. It means that Belarus is wrong to state, at this time, that Raji is a bust.
“they did but that was against a turnover prone QB who forces bad throws, who also has a set of very average receivers.”
In what way is he TO prone? He was about 2:1 in TD:INT last year. Also the Bears WR corps isn’t average and they have proved that so far. Hester looks much improved. Knox had a big play against us, and was great against the Steelers. Bennett has been a solid possession guy so far. And Olsen, Clark, and Davis is probably the best TE corps in the league. Give the defense some credit, they did a great job. Only allowing the Bears 13 points.
by packallday555 on Sep 24, 2009 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions
How is he turnover prone?
Because he has 65 turnovers (41 INTs and 24 fumbles) compared to 57 TDs. And the Bears receiving core is very average. Hester only scored because Nick Collins was asleep that play and the ball fell right into his lap. And if I’m not mistaken many of the Bears receivers ran bad routes that helped Cutler’s interceptions especially that last one by Harris. The Bears receivers are young and quick and they could be a great group some day but right now they look average to me.
by Charlie Kelly on Sep 24, 2009 6:10 AM CDT up reply actions
So let's establish this line of thinking right here
If the Pack don’t get a pick, then they sucked because they didn’t get an INT from a “turnover prone” player
If they DO get picks, then they still suck because the guy was prone to throwing picks anyway so it obviously took no skill to pick him off.
Exactly
I try to look at things on both sides of the equation and I think you do to Danwood. Everyone talks about Cutlers INT’s like he throws 4 every game. The Packers D has gotten no credit from anyone for having 6 INT’s in two games against two good QB’s. Why is there a double standard?
I flagged ALL your posts as trollish. I am sorry but nothing you’ve said has had any truth and you keep repeating the same thing over and over. Go somewhere else if you don’t like the team.
Good
And I hope the site admin reads all of them. I am following the rules I agreed to when I signed up for the site. "Say what you are thinking in a respectful way. " I have never stepped outside that guideline. Apparently for some of you, saying what I am thinking is only acceptable if it doesn’t question the green and gold. That’s sad.
last time i check outside its not the frozen tundra yet...
you keep putting an emphasis on the home games! If it was December and 0 degrees I would say yeah we have an advantage. But it has been nice weather for both games. So the only thing to worry about is the noise. And a little FYI Lambeau is NOT a dome. Yeah it gets loud there but nothing any player is not used to now.
But to no I am not satisfied with the team thus far. But does that mean they are poor? No! Cause no one should be satisfied until your given the Lombardi trophy. And you keep arguing that Pickett and Raji are not dominant enough! Well Raji has not even played in the regular season yet! When he gets in there he should help the ILBs out more.
Home field is supposed to be an advantage
And Lambeau has always been a tough place for a road tem to play. In the past it hasn’t mattered what time of year the game was played. It’s tough to win on the road, and Lambeau is especially tough.
Is the pissing contest over?
can we finally get on with our normal lives? Well, as normal as they can be described as.
"Brandon Jennings needs a nickname before he gives himself one. Oh wait, Young Money, he already did."
by Mitchell Maurer on Sep 23, 2009 3:44 PM CDT reply actions
One more reply
The reason there’s polarization to your posts is because you say uninformed things. Just in this comment section you have said you hate the 3-4 defense (the most effective defense in the league this past decade), Pickett and Raji can’t hold down the NT position effectively, and Raji isn’t ready to be a player yet even though you don’t even have a sample size to go off of except the two pre-season games that he absolutely dominated.
You then bring up one game against the Bengals to prove that the Packers defense sucks. The Broncos beat up the Browns worse than your Vikings did and they beat the Bengals who the Packers lost to so the Broncos must be better than both the Vikings and the Packers after a whole two games.
My opinions are most definitely informed
There are more teams running the 4 – 3 defense than the 3 – 4 defense in the NFL. The 3 – 4 was first played in the 1940s at Oklahoma. It’s been around for a long time. If it is the most effective defense I’d think the majority of NFL teams would be using it by now. For every effective 3 – 4 defense out there I can name a couple of 3 – 4s that are miserable. For example, Baltimore and Pittsburgh are great defenses because of their personnel. Kansas City Jacksonville, and Cleveland are lousy defenses because of their personnel. All of them are 3 – 4 schemes. The New York Giants, the Bears, and the Packers in the past all proved that the 4 – 3 can be a very prominent defense too. In the 4-3, you’re really depending on the defensive linemen, and in the 3-4, you’re depending on the linebackers. Rex Ryan says having the right personnel is the primary factor in the success of the schemes, so most coaches choose to mold their defenses around the talent. He said "It’s always players over scheme. Always. Whatever fits your team, that’s what you use."
Well I see a lot of teams trying to copy cat Baltimore and Pittsburgh but they don’t have the right personnel. I think that’s the case with the Packers this year. Kampman is the hybrid; the guy that can play both D-line and LB. He’s good at rushing the QB but I don’t see him or Barnett being great in space against the pass. So the Bengals kind of knew where the 4th rusher was going to come from. If you have to rush 5 a lot of pressure goes to the secondary especially over the middle. Safeties who can read a play quickly and accurately are absolutely required. The Pack’s safeties are good when healthy, but hurting right now. The NT position is extremely important to a 3 – 4. That’s not the Packers strength right now either.
Will the Packers turn into a premium 3 – 4? Maybe, but it will take time. What does that mean for this year?
We will agree to disagree
You break out the history of the 3-4 to make yourself seem knowledgeable? You quote Rex Ryan who ran a 3-4 with the Ravens and now he’s running the same thing with the Jets. You say the Packers don’t have the players to fit the scheme yet everyone but Kampman and Barnett seem to fit the 3-4 perfectly. Jenkins looks great at DE. They had one bad game against the Bengals and now their defense is in ruins. You say the safeties are good when healthy. Doesn’t that apply for every team? If any team in the league loses their two starting safeties they’re in trouble.
You say because of Kampmans DE history that the Bengals know where the 4th guy was coming from, but if you knew your facts, in the first game Capers sent so many different combinations your head would spin and in the second game he hardly blitzed at all. And the continual disagreement is that Pickett and Raji can’t play NT. I can’t promise you but I definitely believe that by the end of the season you will be wrong on that one also.
I realize we have different opinions and I don’t need to grill you because we do but so many of your opinions of the Packers seem so uninformed I just had to comment. I’ve never seen a person on here that I’ve disagreed with so much except maybe sando.
P.S. Belarus
Dom Capers, who I think you would even admit has a great resume overall as a DC, coached Keith Traylor in Miami, where if you remember he was a pretty good player, and he compared Pickett to Traylor but he said Pickett actually has quicker feet. There also was an article last season that had a bunch of NFC scouts giving their opinions on the NFC North and I remember at least one of them saying that Pickett was a better overall player than Pat Williams at this stage in their careers.
And finally, statistically the top defenses in the league have been 3-4’s so you say for every good 3-4 defense there are bad one’s like Cleveland. Well for every good 4-3 like the Giants there are bad one’s like Detroit as well so what is your point? Everyone knows coaching and players make a defense good but if you have good safeties and good LB’s wouldn’t a 3-4 be better than a 4-3 for that team? Every offense will also tell you that it is harder to decipher whose coming from where in a 3-4 than a 4-3 which leads to 3-4 teams being able to consistently blitz more effectively. You are right though, there are dominant 3-4 and 4-3 defenses out there so why rip the 3-4?
Wow +100
Really couldn’t have said it better myself.
by packallday555 on Sep 24, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Why not rip the 3 - 4
One more reply since you want to continue debating me even after I logged out. But first, I certainly do not intend to be inflammatory with this statement.
As measured by points allowed or yards per game, 5 of the top 7 defenses in 2008 were 4 – 3 schemes. I just don’t like the 3 – 4 defense. I don’t necessarily agree that the blitz is harder to read in a 3 – 4. In either defense when all LBs come up to the line of scrimmage the OL won’t know which DL and LBs are coming and which are dropping back. The idea that the 3 – 4 defense is stronger in any aspect of the game only holds water in the overall speed on the field. The good 3 – 4s depend on having LBs like Ray Lewis or James Harrison and safeties like Troy Polamalu or Ed Reed on the field. I don’t see that talent on most 3 – 4s and those team defenses migrate to average or below pretty quickly.
I think MOST 3 – 4s after Baltimore and Pitt give up too much against the run. Do you agree that the San Diego Chargers have historically had a pretty good 3 – 4? In 2007 AP and the Vikings gouged their defense for 378 yards rushing. The Bengals aren’t the only team that knows how to block against a 3 – 4. The defense has been around long enough that most teams know how to block it. The difference in success against a 3 – 4 also depends on the personnel attacking it.
If nothing else, I hope my posts added something interesting to your site this week. Just wait until next week! ;)
I really do understand what you're saying Belarus
But you put too much emphasis in single game stats and overall rankings. The reason 5 of the top 7 defenses in 2008 were 4-3 defenses was because at least 80% of the teams in the league played a 4-3 defense last season. How many switched to it this season? Who were the top 2 defenses though? Pittsburgh and Baltimore.
If you read one of my posts above you will see that I don’t dislike the 4-3, I just dislike the way a lot of 4-3 coaches run it. The whole goal is to put pressure on the QB which is why Jim Johnson was so good.
Lastly, you state that you don’t think the blitz is harder to read from a 3-4. Well here’s where I think you over step your grounds sometimes and I don’t intend to be inflammatory either. Regardless of your opinion, it is a fact that the 3-4 is harder to decipher against the blitz. I just finished playing college and any college coach and NFL coach will tell you that the 3-4 is harder to decipher because anyone can come from anywhere. Cutler said as much last week against the Packers. That really isn’t up for debate.
Okay
I know KC and GB switched over this year, right? But by my count, and I could be wrong something like 14 teams played 3 – 4 last year and 18 played 4 – 3. So the percentages are closer than 80 – 20.
I also played college and have some coaching experience. It doesn’t make me smart, it just is what it is. But that may explain why I am rough on coaches. If we can figure out who isn’t good in space, we know where 70% + of the blitzes are coming from… 3 – 4 or 4 – 3. If you try and go wide behind the line against a 3 – 4 you are probably dead meat. So run wide sparingly. Instead run quick hitters at the holes and you can make blitzers miss. If you guess wrong on the blitzers you get stuffed ala Ray Lewis and poor Darren Sproles. That happens, but having a good idea of where the blitzes will probably come from is a key. Once through the hole, runners with vision and cutback ability will excel because there is a ton of room. The Bengals did this successfully with Cedric Benson all day on Sunday, and Cedric is a nice RB but not a great RB.
College isn’t the pros. I wish it was because maybe I could have had a long career. Sadly, my talents guaranteed that was not within my realm of possibility. My point is that it doesn’t take much to confuse a college offense. Hell, the cheerleaders distracted me. 3 – 4 defensive schemes are great in college. I don’t think they work as well in the pros unless you have extraordinary personnel. Troy Polamalo has lost more talent growing older than I ever had. And he is still lights out. I think the talk of the Ravens using some 4 – 3 sets has something to do with aging superstars. It’s all about personnel.
You’re not such a bad guy favresucks, although I disagree with your handle. Next week I’ll tell you about all of the Vikings weaknesses. I believe in spreading the love. Maybe better yet, you tell me. Guess what? IMHO they start with Chilly, although he may be starting to come into a groove as he gains experience.
MHO of the Vikings...
I think everything is up in the air right now in the NFC North. The Vikings are 2-0 but they didn’t play exceptionally well against quite possibly two of the worst three teams in the league (the other being the Rams).
I personally think the Bears are a slightly above average team and they’re overhyped. I try not to use what ifs, but the Packers would have beat them by double digits if the ref didn’t blow the illegal contact call and Rodgers didn’t miss two wide open TD’s because of first game nerves. They beat a Steelers team that looks bad right now only because Jeff Reed missed two moderate 4th quarter field goals (although the Bears could’ve scored a TD to win it but who knows).
The Lions are still terrible. I see their ceiling at 3 wins.
The Packers (like the Vikings) are too hard to read right now. Their defense whooped up on the Bears minus two long throws, then they came out and thought they would beat the Bengals by just showing up. I think if their offensive line improves (a big if) they’re a really good team.
If I’m rating the North like a grade report for how I think the teams will be (not how they are after two games) when were more than a couple of games in and I don’t take into account some non-season ending injuries, I would give the Vikings a 90% (A-), the Packers a 87-88% (B,B+), the Bears an 80% (B-), and the Lions a 60% (D-).
All this will change after this week and next week when the Vikings actually play two good opponents and the Packers actually play two road games against a bad team and a good team. The Bears play an injury ravaged Seattle team and the Lions so I don’t know how much will be able to tell about them in the coming weeks.
" Kampman is the hybrid; the guy that can play both D-line and LB. He’s good at rushing the QB but I don’t see him or Barnett being great in space against the pass. So the Bengals kind of knew where the 4th rusher was going to come from. If you have to rush 5 a lot of pressure goes to the secondary especially over the middle. Safeties who can read a play quickly and accurately are absolutely required. The Pack’s safeties are good when healthy, but hurting right now. The NT position is extremely important to a 3 – 4. That’s not the Packers strength right now either."
Kampman has actually looked great so far, not just rushing the passer but in coverage as well. Matthews has looked to be the prototypical 3-4 OLB thus far. Keep in mind Barnett did only play in one preseason game and is still trying to get to the level he was at before the injury (which was pro-bowl caliber). Yes, it hurt that the Bengals knew where our pass rush was coming from but like I have said before their accustomed to playing it, and that’s where our transition period comes into play.
I get what your saying about the 3-4 defense compared to the 4-3 and for the most part I agree. But the bottom line is, we have the personnel to play this system. Matthews and Kampman are both good OLB’s. Hawk, Chillar, and Barnett have looked good in the system thus far. Woodson and Williams excel in the new system, as well as Bigby and Collins (based off of what we’ve seen thus far), and even Harris who everyone was doubting has looked good in it. With Raji playing, the line will be fresher, and as a result probably more effective. Based off of preseason and how training camp went for Raji, he is going to be a beast. Jenkins is a very talented guy, who really could be a pro bowl player if he can stay healthy. Jolly has been a pleasant surprise thus far, and Pickett has been a little above average.
by packallday555 on Sep 24, 2009 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
That's enough for now
I honestly wish the Packers good luck except when they play the Vikes. I’ll come back to post again, but I have more than said my piece for a while.

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