On The Packers Offensive Struggles
by Brandon on Oct 12, 2010 9:11 AM CDT
in Green Bay Packers Analysis
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PrintFrom Mike McCarthy's Monday press conference:
We were very productive on offense as far as moving the ball down the field. Our biggest issues were third down and dropping the football. I think that definitely would have changed our point total if we had been more productive in those two areas.
Looking back at my earlier recap, I realized I didn't talk about the drops or the 3rd downs. I was expecting the Packers to score 3 TDs, which is what they've been averaging on offense this season. The second drive of the game ended with a TD, but then they had the failed 3rd and goal at the start of the 2nd quarter that could have been their 2nd TD. They also had that late 3rd quarter drive when WR Donald Driver dropped a catchable pass on 3rd and 1 from the Redskins 29 yard line. They had to settle for a missed FG attempt by K Mason Crosby. If the offense had scored a TD on those two opportunities, something they had been doing earlier this season, they would have been right above their previous point average of just over 25 points per game. The players had to make a play in those situations, and it just didn't happen last week.
And it was really frustrating watching them get to within 3rd and 1 or 2 yards to go, and failing to convert. I counted that it happened 4 times during the game, and overall they were 2 for 13 on 3rd down. It hadn't been a problem going into this game, and neither had dropped passes, but both completely threw the offense out of any momentum they might have been building.
I'm also not sure what happened to WR James Jones, who was open all day on short passes early, but then vanished later. Apparently the Redskins adjusted, and decided they needed to pay more attention to him.
Right now, it looks like one forgettable game, and none of these issues are true problems. The real problems remain the lousy special teams and all the injuries. I'm not hoping for a miracle on special teams, they've been lousy nearly every year under McCarthy, but hopefully the surgeries go well for TE Jermichael Finley and LB Nick Barnett, and they can return later this year.
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Seriously. I’m starting to question just how good Jennings really is. I don’t know if he’s really a true go to guy or not.
by packallday555 on Oct 12, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I’ve wondered it for a while but every year I fall for the hopes of what he could be and end up disappointed., He was a GREAT #2 but ever since moving into the 1 spot he seems to struggle to get open. He still makes nice catches and when he gets open is successful but I just don’t think he’s making separation.
Yeah, I don’t know for sure. I kind think some of his struggles have to do with our lack of creativity with him but obviously I don’t know for sure. It seems like all we have him do is run deep routes, which don’t work often due to teams playing cover 2 against us, or bracketing him.
I watched the Cowboys game and was really impressed with Austin but more so with Garrett, and how he lined Austin up all over the field.
by packallday555 on Oct 12, 2010 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought it was more of a pick your poison.
They become more concerned of Jennings leading to DD and Finley receptions.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Oct 12, 2010 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m sure that’s part of it too but if he’s really as good as he’s been advertised to be (and has been at certain times), then he should still be able to pretty consistently “get his” so to speak.
I don’t know, it seems like anytime he’s in single coverage he’s making a big play or catch, which leads me to believe he’s getting doubled up a lot of the time. But the thing is, with Driver and Finley too, we should be able to free him from those doubles. I just think we need to start getting more creative offensively.
by packallday555 on Oct 13, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
At least Jennings doesn't get vocal about it.
I guess we’ll see more slants.
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Oct 13, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Alvin Harper
Alvin Harper was the no. 2 WR for the Cowboys during their Aikman glory years. The no. 1 was Michael Irvin. Everybody thought that Harper was actually better – he was the deep threat. He became a free agent and signed with the Bucs, with the intentioin of being the no. 1 there, but it never panned out. The consensus was that he simply was not a no. 1 WR – he was best suited to being a complimentary guy, but not the focus of the passing game.
So I take it you think Jennings is somewhat similar to Alvin Harper? It’d make sense. Jennings was pretty quiet up until the end of the season last year, and has been pretty quiet so far this season. I’d love to see us use him more like we used to use him with slants, and quick timing routes but stubborn ole’ McCarthy will probably just keep sending him deep the majority of the time.
by packallday555 on Oct 13, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
i've
been saying that since i been on this blog. jennings isn’t a true #1………and he is grossly overpaid at 9 million per season.
Amazing how two missed field goals
make everything seem bigger.
its really not about two missed FGs…they were both LONG field goals, its not like they were chip shots. There are a lot of things that would still be concerning whether we won the game or not. Some of us were talking about them before this game…
Correct, but ...
It is true that both FGs were long ones, and the percentage for any kicker goes down when it approaches 50 yards. However, at NFL level a top kicker shouldn’t miss two long FGs like that. The misses are excusable, but barely.
Yeah, I am not trying to take Crosby off the hook, he needs to make at least one of those two. I just think there is a LOT of blame to go around.
Dropped catches
Shoddy play calling
4th and 1 decision
Missed FGs
Finley going down
Matthews going down
SO yeah, lots of excuses but ultimately we didn’t play well enough to win the game in most regards.
Special Teams
In low scoring games, like the ones we’ll be involved in against the Dolphins, Jets, 49ers, and Bears (at home), special teams will play an even bigger factor. 3 points and field position can determine the game. That problem needs to be fixed.
Actually, this was a pretty stupid thing to say.
Sorry – please ignore… TT doesn’t hire the special teams coach, MM does.
by Jurp on Oct 12, 2010 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
Right now, it looks like one forgettable game, and none of these issues are true problems.
3rd down conversion has been an issue all season long. We’re in the bottom 2/3rds this year at 39%; last year we were #3 at 47%. Drops have been an issue going back to last season.
I disagree too.
This wasn’t just a forgettable game…this is the direction we are falling to right now. Now injuries play into it, but ultimately its the defense that is ravaged by injury and yet they are the unit that is still playing better. This offense is NOT clicking…it really hasn’t yet aside from the Buffalo game. I don’t know if its the players or the play calling so I assume its some combination.
And even the Buffalo game, the offense took the second quarter off
We have yet to play a complete game this year.
Is this ultimately a coaching issue?
Should we be getting on MM’s case?
Seems to me
I don’t know if players have started believing the hype, or what. But when a talented team plays consistently bad, then you have to think that maybe coaching is a problem.
by MikeDB on Oct 12, 2010 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
OR
maybe this team isn’t as talented as some might think. just like the cowboys, yep they are the most talented team to never get out of the 2nd round of the playoffs.
Did anybody see Trent Dilfer lay into this team when he went over the Packers 4th qrt stats? A bit surprising none the less.
Why is nobody bringing this up?
Jordy Nelson seemed to have scored before the referees spotted the ball at the one yard line. McCarthy did not challenge the call, we tried three more times to punce the ball from the one yard line and came up empty.
That was a major turning point of the game. Had McCarthy used the challenge then, we wouldn’t be talking about a bitter defeat right now. Even if he lost the challenge, the timeout would have been wise to call better plays from the one yard line.
by Rodgers_for_MVP on Oct 12, 2010 11:27 AM CDT reply actions
Foot was on the line
He stepped out of bounds, clear even by the TV replays. If anything, the ball should have been at the two yard line (where the ball was when his foot went out) not the 1 yard line. They gave Jordy his extension even though he hadn’t extended the ball yet when he stepped on the line.
by Ryanweiss13 on Oct 12, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
No Peyton
I think that one of the problems we are having is that with virtually no attempt to run the ball, we are asking Rodgers to carry the team. He comes up to the line and tries to do a Peyton Manning by making major play call changes, and to be honest, he doesn’t do it as well. Rodgers is a good QB, but I don’t think he is quite in the category of a QB that can carry his team on his own shoulders.
Exactly. I think that’s our biggest problem. We’re putting too much on Rodgers shoulders shoulders. It seems like the only time we even do run is when Rodgers audibles to one. I think we’ve got run the ball at least 20 times so we can develop some sort of balance. Especially since Jackson actually looked quite good last game.
by packallday555 on Oct 12, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
are we forgetting
that rodgers suggested that they go to a more spread offense to use all the weapons, which means put more responsibility on his shoulders. then he and mccarthy had a discussion about his comments. rodgers got what he wanted and is coming up short. this is what happens when you let the players dictate what direction the team is going. ala favre.
Yeah, that’s true. McCarthy should have scrapped the spread the ball out plan as soon as our running game seemed to be rather successful but he didn’t. In game adjustments definitely aren’t one of the coaching staff’s strengths.
by packallday555 on Oct 13, 2010 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions
You’re right, we need a running game. But take away Jackson’s 71 yarder, and he’s still only average.
I stand corrected on the stats
Thanks for the info – 5 ypc is nothing to sneeze at. So why didn’t we run more?
He still averaged over 4 ypc when you take away that 71 yarder. He actually looked good this past Sunday. Finding the holes, and showing some power breaking some tackles. There was no reason to abandon the running game on Sunday. Just made no sense.
by packallday555 on Oct 13, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
and Kuhn got 3-4 carries
I’ve come to really like the way Kuhn runs. He’s an old-fashioned pound the middle back, like Taylor, Csonka, Riggins or Bettis. I don’t think that he is as good as them, but if he had 15 carries a game, he’d get 60-70 yards. Combining another 10+ carries with Jackson, who is more likely break a 15+ run, or a 15+ catch and run, and defenses would have to respect the run.
Using them wisely, and for around 25 carries a game, we’d get similar production to what we were able to do with Grant. We’d be back to a 40-60 ratio of run to pass, and I’m certain get the offense back in gear.
by MikeDB on Oct 13, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Other comparisons
I don’t think anybody is going to confuse Kuhn with Csonka or Bettis. He’s more like Terdell Middleton and Eric Torkelson (look them up). He’s okay, but he’s not a feature back.
Curiously, Dorsey Levens and Naje Davenport both were drafted as blocking backs but becamse better as feature ball carriers.
Our struggles are a direct result of failing to COMMIT to the run
Do we have a top notch running game? No… but to completely abandon the run is killing us. I know this is a pass happy league now, but you don’t win games dropping back 50 times a game and I know it’s cliche but give a back who gets 150 yds/game instead of a qb who gets me 400. We need to at least pretend to have a run game for several reasons
1. Showing a commitment and willing to run the ball keeps the defense honest. They have to play the run to an extent and it opens up short and medium passes. Also the pass rush has to play the run instead of just going straight for the QB giving Aaron an extra second to look down-field and find his open guy
2. We suck on short yardage situations this year as pointed out above. This is because we almost always pass on 3rd and 2 or 3rd and 3. Running here every now and then increases our 3rd down conversions
3. Failure to convert on 3rd down as noted above leads to a lot of 3 and outs (is it only me or does it seem that we either have like 8 play drives or 3 and outs?) When we run 3 plays and punt we lose major field position. This is why when we do string together good drives we end up settling for a lot of field goals instead of TD, we’ve killed our field position and have to go 70-80 yards for a TD instead of 50-60.
There are a lot of other reasons as well like play-calling, (why does our POWER back not see the ball once in 3rd and inches and 4th and inches) dropped passes, a shaky O-line, but I think failure to commit to the run is our biggest issue right now. How do you make other teams respect your run game when you don’t even respect it? The worst part about this was that the run game showed signs of life Sunday. Even if you remove the 71 yarder we’re still pulling 4+ yds/carry. Why go away from that?
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 12, 2010 12:40 PM CDT reply actions
Good Analysis
Let’s take it a step further. Commitment to the run? No. Commitment to winning football? No. It seems that commitment is a good place to start with this team.
Good analysis
Here’s one more point – without a running game, the play action pass is just a waste of time, since no one on the Ds biting on it.
I was absolutely shocked
at the number of drops in the game. It wasn’t raining was it?
I’m pretty sure in the two series before halftime, the Packers dropped 6 consecutive passes – all of which hit the receiver in both hands (probably 5 of which should’ve been caught).
Driver and Jones were the main culprits if I recall correctly.
That kind of stuff absolutely kills drives – we hang on to a few of those balls and put the game away early, but instead we left just enough doubt for the Skins to be able to creep back in.
It needs to get fixed.
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 12, 2010 12:45 PM CDT reply actions
Yeah, it’s unacceptable. We know the run game isn’t going to give Rodgers much help (largely because of McCarthy imo). We know the offensive line isn’t going to give Rodgers much help. Normally the receivers do but in a game where they don’t, we’re going to be hard pressed to do anything at all on offense.
by packallday555 on Oct 12, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
Here were the two series – I wish they showed who was targeted on yahoo:
Green Bay – 4:36
1st-10, GB30 4:36 A. Rodgers incomplete pass to the left
2nd-10, GB30 4:32 A. Rodgers incomplete pass to the left
3rd-10, GB30 4:26 A. Rodgers incomplete pass down the middle
4th-10, GB30 4:11 T. Masthay punt, no return. Washington committed 10 yard penalty. Green Bay committed 5 yard penalty
Green Bay – 0:13
1st-10, GB37 0:13 A. Rodgers incomplete pass to the left
2nd-10, GB37 0:07 A. Rodgers incomplete pass down the middle
3rd-10, GB37 0:03 A. Rodgers incomplete pass down the middle
End of First Half.
You look at this and think “wow Rodgers isn’t getting it done” – but I’m pretty sure all 6 of these passes hit the receivers in both hands. Maybe someone who DVR’ed the game or who has better stat-recovery skills can show the offenders, but it was abysmal.
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 12, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Here we go - ESPN to the rescue
1st and 10 at GB 30 A.Rodgers pass incomplete short left to D.Driver.
2nd and 10 at GB 30 (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass incomplete deep left to J.Jones.
3rd and 10 at GB 30 (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass incomplete short middle to J.Jones.
1st and 10 at GB 37 A.Rodgers pass incomplete short left to J.Jones.
2nd and 10 at GB 37 (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass incomplete short middle to J.Nelson.
3rd and 10 at GB 37 (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass incomplete short middle to D.Driver.
3 by Jones, 2 by Driver, one by Jordy Nelson.
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 12, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
shoot you beat me to it!
Just cause they are incomplete doesn’t mean they were drops though. I don’t remember this exactly series but if nothing else, it shows how important a running game is. Three straight drives ended in three plays due to us dropping passes or making poor passes. 5 of the 6 plays were short passes which means they were meant to be substitutes for our running game and they failed.
In my mind
honestly the only reason I care about the running game is to stop opponents from playing that super-deep cover-2 which is taking Jennings completely out of the game.
And at the same time the fact that teams are playing that super deep cover-2 means that’s even less guys to block or run over in the running game – it should be successful.
But yeah if my memory serves they were all dropped (I was freaking out about it at the bar) – would need a DVR to check though.
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 12, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
It’s not the offensive line. Remember last year? This line is heads and shoulders above that atrocity, yet Rodgers still moved the ball. Further, Bulaga is a much better run blocker than Tausher. They have moved the ball on the ground, but they don’t do it enough that any defense adjusts to it. Where are the screens, the traps, the draws? This team is mentally defeated.
I think it's called playcalling
And possibly shows that we need a new coach. I’d throw in a new GM, too.
IN DEFENSE OF THE DEVIL
Thompson is easy to hate. But last weekend the rubber hit the road. On defense, Barnett, Burnett, Shields, Pickett, Chillar, Martin, then Mathews, all gone. The benchies took over. No Chicken Little, the sky didn’t fall down. Actually, for the most part, they did a very credible job. The defense held the Skin’s to 13 points with NO HELP from the offense. Friends, how many teams could have not had the sky fall down? Maybe, the guy know what he’s doing. Of course, he did hire McCarthy. Ooops.
Yeah, I agree. The back-up’s came in and actually played pretty darn well. Bishop looked much better than I thought he was, and even Pat Lee looked ok. Peprah made some nice first down saving tackles but had two pretty crucial mistakes. Still though, with more practice time, I don’t think it’s out of the question to think they’ll all play a bit better.
by packallday555 on Oct 13, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
unfortunately
the better offenses on the schedule are looming in the next few weeks, with which we do not match-up with well even without the injuries…….imo
Both TT and MM have done a good job. I think that MM needs to hire an Offensive Coordinator who takes a greater responsibility for running the offense and play-calling. Of course, it need to be someone with a similar philosophy. Maybe Philbin could do it, but then he needs to step out of McCarthy’s shadow.
I am totally fine with that resolution, but SOMETHING needs to change IMO. I like some of the things that MM has done, I think they are developing players very nicely but as a gametime coach and decision maker I think he really lacks. It would be nice to have someone share some of those responsibilities.
4th Q Stats
Trent Dilfer on ESPN Radio yesterday said that he looked at the Pack’s 17 4th Q offensive drives this year and found that we’ve only scored 1 TD! 1/17 is almost as bad as our 3rd down efficiency…
ATROCIOUS PLAY CALLING
We have not seen this team operate on all cylinders yet. Why? This team can’t finish. Why?
McCarthy rarely uses any of the devices to slow down the rush. Why? Rodgers is becoming less effective with each passing (pun intended) week. Why? The offense doesn’t show up in the 2nd half. Why? Nothing gets fixed. Why?
The injuries are primarily on the defensive side, yet the offense, we’ve all seen, disappears. Why? If a team doesn’t have talent, it’s easy to understand a loss. When you see a team with talent shoot itself every week it is impossible to understand. This team is NOT on the level needed to play winning football. I’m laying every bit of this on Coach Mike McCarthy.
by marcopo on Oct 12, 2010 7:12 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
Actually, I think we're lucky to be 3-2
The way I look at it, we probably should’ve lost to Detroit (thank you Lions for living down to your reputation!) and Philly. The D and Matthews won those games for us. As marcopo posted earlier, the offense especially does seem to be getting worse each week – now with the injuries, can we even beat the Dolphins? Will the Cowboys game be the trigger for Dallas to go on a run? Will we be playing the ’Queens for third place in the Division?
Well, if a team this talented finishes below .500 HEADS HAVE TO ROLL!
Well
6 inches to the right on a field goal and we beat the Redskins. A play away from beating the Bears too.
This is just who we are, I think the luck has been pretty evenly spread (except for the unprecedented number of injuries).
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 12, 2010 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions
shoulda, woulda, coulda's
There are moments in every game that impact the outcome. Had the Packer’s played 60 minutes of the football that they are capable of, it wouldn’t have come down to a field goal. Further, we have seen that lackluster offensive performance in one shade or another since game one. The offense actually played better last year when they had no offensive line. Yet, it’s week six and the same problems persist. The only “injury excuse” on offense is Finley. Bulaga has been an upgrade over Tausher.
Yeah
I’m not making excuses – just saying the “we should’ve lost to Detroit and Philly” is just as …senseless as “we should’ve beat Chicago and the Redskins”. What happened in each game is what should’ve happened given how the players on the field played.
I wanna blame the playcalling, but I’ve just seen too many damn drops by the receivers in the past few weeks to not blame…the actual players on offense.
Bleh.
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 13, 2010 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Rodger's injury and turning it around
If a concussion to your star QB can ever be a blessing in surprise, perhaps it can lead to an emphasis on the running game over the next couple of games. Then we (and McCarthy) can find out if we’ve really got a worthwhile running game. If so, then maybe we can get back to keeping the defense guessing.
Problem is
I really don’t think the safeties will be 30 yards off the line all the time vs. Matt Flynn.
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 13, 2010 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Only two ways to operate on offense
1) The team by using different strategies finds a weak spot in the defense and runs or passes the ball against the weak spot. You can exploit a sub-par player, or you can create weak spot by manipulating the play, fooling the defense, like simply passing deep on 3rd and 1 with everyone in the box, etc.
2) You can just outman and overpower the defense simply with your own strength and/or speed. This is what the Steelers have been doing the first 4 games.
McCarthy is all about the first one, and almost ignore the second. With Finley there was a feeling that we could just pass it to him at will and overcome the defense through his ability, but we don’t do it on the run. And we need to. Not like the Steelers had to without Roethlisberger, but the O-line has to step up and knock people out of the way.
Is it just me
or is anyone else morbidly curious how Matt Flynn would play vs. another team’s 1s for 60 minutes?
:(
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 13, 2010 12:34 AM CDT reply actions
Rodgers evidently is not showing any concussion symptoms (confirming what Flynn said on Monday) and the team is optimistic he will play on Sunday: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/39649890/ns/sports-player_news/
Meanwhile, has anyone else seen the DeAngelo Williams to GB rumors? I doubt these are any more likely than the Lynch move, to be honest, but maybe something has changed in TT’s mind.
I don't believe those rumors
After last weekend I have absolute confidence that TT does nothing with the RB situation.
It doesn't matter if he does anything
We could have a backfield of Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, and The Fridge for 3rd downs (all in their primes of course) and it wouldn’t matter because we show NO (ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, NADDA) commitment to the run
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 13, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
You’d hope having an above average back would change that though.
by packallday555 on Oct 13, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
I would like to hope
But I highly doubt it does. MM sets up the run w/ the pass, instead of the pass w/ the run. Then our passing game never gets going and since we’ve never established the pass, there’s no way we can run it (MM Philosophy not mine lol)
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 13, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Where are you seeing these rumors?
Wouldn’t that be a big move haha. Of course, we all know it won’t happen.
by packallday555 on Oct 13, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Where are you seeing these rumors?
http://netdugout.com/blog/2010/10/rcmbs28/deangelo-williams-to-green-bay/
http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/chicago-bears-forum/7988-nfc-north-packers-talking-deangelo-williams.html
http://www.rantsports.com/redzonetalk/20101004-green-bay-packers-to-trade-for-deangelo-williams/
http://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/green_bay_packers_to_trade_for_deangelo_williams/3348243
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540652
et al.
Adam Shefter at ESPN says it ain’t happening, but there’s a lot of talk that something might be in the works.
So if Jones does become part of the deal
does that mean Nelson and Swain become our 3rd and 4th wideouts? Or is there someone else that’ll come up instead of Swain?
They want power. We want respect...
by SenorChuckles on Oct 13, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Three can be enough
Most teams are really only 3-deep in receivers. Certainly there are 4th and 5th WRs on the roster, but they are mostly special team players or projects. The Colts, Saints, etc are a few exceptions.
If we traded Jones this year, there will be WRs in the draft next year.
If Finley is going to be out the rest of the year per new reports
I would really prefer the Packers stay 4 deep at WR.
Towlieppan: "You wanna throw high?"
At this point
I don’t really trust Jones. I just don’t. Fumbles and dropped passes – if he doesn’t get it now…and we can turn him into DeAngelo Williams – do that in a second.
by Archibaldcrane on Oct 13, 2010 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
What about DD
He’s fumbled and dropped more passes than Jones in the past 2 years, but I bet you still trust Driver don’t you? Try again!
You've been Stroh'd!!!
by Strohman on Oct 14, 2010 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Other backs?
I wonder if Steve Slaton could be gotten for a 3rd round pick, considering he has dropped to #3 at Houston.
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