Packer Notes: Lynch To Seattle, Moss To Vikings
- I'll start with the news that the Green Bay Packers missed out on RB Marshawn Lynch, who was shipped off to Seattle for a 4th round pick plus a conditional draft pick. But did the Packers really miss out on anything? I liked Lynch coming out of college, but he's been a very bland pro. His best pro season was 2008 when he averaged only 4.1 yards/carry but still made it to the Pro Bowl. That's his best season. And according to Football Outsiders, in 2008, he was ranked as the 24th best running back, right behind Detroit's RB Kevin Smith, and he was even ranked behind Smith as a receiver. Since then, he's been beaten out for playing time by RB Fred Jackson.
While Lynch is certainly better then current No. 3 RB Dimitri Nance, it isn't obvious that he's an upgrade over either FB John Kuhn or RB Brandon Jackson. Having depth is nice, but if he can't obviously make them any better, I don't see this as a lost opportunity. The key to running out the clock last week against the Lions was the great blocking by C Scott Wells and FB Korey Hall. They didn't need Lynch to make that happen.
And don't even get me started on whether Lynch would help them establish the run early in the game.
- As you're probably reading this, WR Randy Moss to the Vikings is probably a done deal. It's a nice win-now move for the Vikings, to get Moss while he's still got some No. 1 WR juice left in him, and the Vikings have a serious need for a No. 1 WR. Whereas Lynch wouldn't provide much of an upgrade for the Packers, Moss is a big upgrade over WR Bernard Berrian or any of the other non-Percy Harvin WRs. The bad news for the Vikings is that it will cost them a 1st round pick to acquire a 33 year old receiver, but it's a win-now trade. And you've got to appreciate the unintentional humor of Brad Childress who said "I don't know anything about it. I'm watching film."
And I don't know what the Patriots are thinking here. Yes, it's a contract issue distraction, but removing Moss from the Patriots completely changes their offense, which is currently ranked as the best in the NFL by Football Outsiders.
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Lynch
Okay…you don’t have to be high on Lynch and you don’t have to want him but to come out and say that “it isn’t obvious that he’s an upgrade over either FB John Kuhn or RB Brandon Jackson” is pretty ridiculous. Remember the team Lynch is on…their Oline makes ours look like a pro bowl roster. Lynch is a CLEAR upgrade. Now maybe you don’t want to give up picks or maybe you want to see what Nance can do or what Kuhn can do witha full load or even wait for Starks…that is fine but saying Lynch isn’t an ungrade over our sorry situation at RB is pretty poor writing.
Well, in Brandon's defense
I think this is what he said: “The key to running out the clock last week against the Lions was the great blocking by C Scott Wells and FB Korey Hall”.
This is a point that everyone who is so high on trading for Lynch, et al., never seem to bring up, ie, that our o-line has been horrendous at run-blocking this year.
I agree that Lynch is an upgrade over BJax and Kuhn on paper, but I also agree with Brandon that it’s not clear that he would be a step-up behind the Pack’s crappy run-blocking. If this unit can start blocking like they did to close out the Lions game, I think Jackson, Kuhn, and Nance will easily be enough to collectively rush for 65-75 yards a game, which is all the really need with this passing game.
Overall, if you want to hit the panic button, it’s the secondary that worries me, but that’s for another thread….
The key to running out the clock last week
was playing Detroit the worst run def in the league. The team we couldn’t run against the rest of the game. I knew people were going to look at that drive and say its fixed when it’s not at all. We ran the ball for 1 drive against the WORST ref defense. That’s what’s supposed to happen an entire game not 1 drive.
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 6, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Fine
but how does anything you just said take away from Brandon (and my) opinion that the real issue with the running game is the failure in the trenches, not so much with the guys carrying the rock (although they’re nothing to write home about either…)
run blocking
I recall hearing many moons ago that run blocking is for the younger guys. the older guys have a harder time getting that bend. If Clifton and Tauscher keep stinking it up, the Bulaga and Lang era needs to start sooner rather than later.
You’re never going to get a scientifically controlled experiment in the NFL. Yet, Lynch had a respectable average this year. I don’t think anyone’s going to suggest Buffalo has even a mediocre line. Yet, put a good back behind a good a mediocre line and all of a sudden you’re thinking the line wasn’t that bad. Put a bad back behind a mediocre line and you get about 3 yards per carry – or less. I think that’s exactly the situation we have here.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
But
Kuhn is averaging more yards per carry than Lynch. Our overall team average is 3.9. (BJax = 3.0 45 on carries, Kuhn = 4.7 on 26 carries, Rodgers = 4.6 on 15 carries, and Grant = 5.6 on 8 carries).
I think the point is to not freak out.
not freaking out
to me it’s simply that we had an excellent opportunity to improve our team and we failed to do so. That’s disappointing.
My point is that the line is not great, but not awful. There are holes. there. Kuhn does a better job of finding them than Jackson. Jackson hits them slowly and tentatively as well. I’d like to see what someone like Lynch could do. My best guess is you’ll think “hey, the line is a lot better than I thought.” That’s all.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Brandon...your looking really stupid right now
I have to agree with TrevorR…this is definitely POOR writing! You should retire! And don’t come out of retirement like favre. Wow…you might not like lynch, put he is a proven commodity in this league. He went to the pro bowl in 08. What has brandon jackson done?! Brandon Jackson has proven that he is probably a career 3rd down back and John Kuhn is a situational running back/fullback. Giving up a third round pick for lynch made too much sense. He still has a year and 1/2 left on his rookie contract (which doesn’t pay him that much) and in my opinion he is a more complete running back than Ryan grant. He can catch the ball out the backfield, run in between the tackles, and to the outside. The only thing that was a knock on this guy is his character. One more mistake and he’ll be gone for a year. It was definitely worth the risk tho because we have two backups in Jackson and Kuhn and two unknowns with nance and Starks. I hope James Starks become the next Ryan grant but he hasn’t played in live contact since the international bowl game his junior year.
by PACK3RS on Oct 6, 2010 12:06 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
This is why I'm not
real thrilled with letting twelve year olds comment on this site.
"Tragedy is what happens to me. Comedy is what happens to you." -Mel Brooks
by jobe on Oct 6, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Crazy idea: Packers should go for Felix Jones.
He’s young, he’s not going to get a ton of playing time in Dallas’s 3 back system, and I think they’re looking to get rid of him. Why not offer our 4th and 6th round selections for Felix Jones? We’d at least have a viable running threat and he seems to be a fairly good option out of the backfield.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Jerry jones...
will NEVER EVER let him go…maybe we have a chance at Choice but remember that Jerry took Felix instead of Mendenhall and Chris Johnson (the next two picks in the draft). This is his little pet project and his pride would NEVER let him trade Jones.
Pride cometh before a fall...
Felix needs to produce this year or he’s going to be a free agent. There’s no way on earth the Cowboys will keep a subpar running back in front of Tashard Choice.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
How is expressing an opinion you don't agree with evidence of "definitely POOR writing"?
If Brandon had spoken his contrary view to you personally, would that be poor talking?
by 400metres on Oct 8, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Moss
Obviously this is a GREAT move for the Vikings…it the problem really was just them missing a WR1, then its problem solved. Its a great move for the team, and a bad one for GB. Minny instantly becomes a pretty scary team again.
Regarding New England, I watched this last game…pretty interesting to see what they are doing with their TEs. They were throwing out 3 TE sets and Brady has a real eye for one of them and the other is a TD vulture. I think they’ll be able to keep things moving, the only question is if they can still stretch the field enough to leave the underneath stuff open. I have a hunch they’ll be using a lot the routes we use with Finley sending him up the middle of the field. They’ll be okay, its a bit of a hit but he was out the door next year anyway…
well,
“…the only question is if they can still stretch the field enough to leave underneath stuff open.” Bingo. The reason Moss only has 9 or 10 catches this year is that he draws doubles, a lot of attention, leaving things upon for the likes of Hernandez.
What are the Patriots thinking!! Maybe they want Moss to play against the Jets this monday night so that their big rival for the division race loses! grins
Exactly what I was thinking
This is the type of thing we see in baseball with teams under 500. Do the Patriots really think Welker is a true number one? And who goes at #2? Edelmen? Expect Welker’s stats to drop heavily. Tom Brady may be great, but he still needs people to throw to.
"A ringing single for David Eckstein who, in my view, is the perfect size for an American male." -Bob Costas
w/o Moss to stretch the field.
Every reciever on the NE roster is going to find it alot harder to get open! THat includes Welker… They were great together cuz they complimented each other soo well. Take Moss out of the equation and there are no safeties over the top to prevent Moss from beating them deep! NE offense is going to dramatically changed by not having Moss on the field!
AT the same time Minn, now has a legit #1 WR to open the field. They are giving up a 3rd rd pick to get Moss for just the rest of this season though. Moss and Rice are very similar players… Tall, deep threats. This tells me that Minn isn’t sure that Rice will be back this season! With Rice, I don’t think Minn makes this move! Moss is still a FA after the season too… He wants a big payday again. And Minn has to decide on Rice or Moss! I don’t know that they can co-exist!
For all we know
New England’s Brandon Tate flourishes as the number one in NE and goes off for 1,400 receiving yards, leaving Moss in the dust. Welker can get open anywhere. Tate has been hurt the last few years but has 2 KR TDs in 4 games (Cincy and Miami).
It’s all just hypothetical. Ignore ESPN, they ARE sensationalism and likely never have the complete story.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't see Tate drawing any double/triple teams!
Welker now gets bracket coverage… he’ll still get catches but its going to be alot harder! Don’t know a thing about Tate, really… But he isn’t going to take over a game or Moss’s role in the offense, even if he has a couple of great games! He just doesn’t strike me as a guy that needs that kinda attetion!
Brandon Tate
was a number one receiver in college before his injury (which knocked him out of the first round entirely and bumped him into the 3rd round of the draft, where Kraft swooped him up). He’s an explosive player (when healthy). He just hasn’t had a full season at full strength yet; I believe he spent last year on IR after he blew his ACL AND MCL against Miami in college the year before.
What I saw of him in Miami was that he found the open areas in coverage and gave Brady a good option when he was on the field.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Whoops!
“in Miami” should be “against Miami this Monday”…
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't see anything about a first round pick for Moss
Word has it it’s a 3rd rounder.
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)
yep, looks like a third rounder....
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)
This move...
Maybe BB knows something other people don’t, but I can’t recall when I’ve been angrier that the Patriots made a trade. The fact that the Patriots actually play the Vikings makes this look even more…foolish? I can’t find the right words for it.
Moss now goes to an offensive system that doesn’t even look like the one he was in previously in New England. While his jersey sales are going to spike massively in Minnesota, he has to gel with Farve in 3 weeks or less or this trade is not going to help the Vikings pull out of their 1-2 nosedive fast enough.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Moss-Lynch
This will take the Vikings to the top and the Pack to mediocracy. It will not take long for 2 vets like them to get it together. Rodgers can’t do it by himself.
Pack Rule
Mediocrity?
As much as I got crap for suggesting to hit the panic button I don’t think it’s going to go that far. The Vikings need more than one receiver to be a world beater…especially if Shancoe spends any significant time out.
They are tougher, no doubt…but I don’t think this sinks the Packers down that far either.
by PackApologist on Oct 6, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think its a matter of us sinking to mediocrity
Looking at this team the past few weeks, we were already there. This is an 8-8 tops team w/ the O-line the way it is, no consistent running game, an inability to get off the field on 3rd downs, and a tough schedule.
The point is, this move propels the vikings to a 9-7 or 10-6 team which wins this division. Moss gives Favre that big target he needs where he can just throw the ball and have his receiver make a play to extend drives and score in the red-zone. Plus what do we do when Rice gets back and we’re looking at dealing w/ Moss, Rice, Shancoe, and Harvin in the slot as well as having to respect their run game w/ AD?
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 6, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Brandon, whoa...
Hold on there man. If Kuhn were traded, would we get a 4th AND 5th for him? DOn’t think so… How about Brandon Jackson? Maybe, MAYBE one fourth round pick, at MOST.
Lynch is a former Pro Bowler, still young and very talented. Great hounds out the backfield. And like was stated above, ran behind a real bad line. He clearly has another gear compared to our guys. It would have been an upgrade.
Heck I’m not even sure a package of Kuhn and Jackson PUT TOGETHER gets us a fourth and fifth!
The Moss move...
call me crazy, but I love it! Nothing sweeter than beating Favre and Moss at the same time. It’s going to make it even sweeter.
And it adds to the dramatics.
Let the games begin.
Makes that december game vs. Patriots a little easier
"A ringing single for David Eckstein who, in my view, is the perfect size for an American male." -Bob Costas
I'd rather have a harder game against NE than two harder games against MN
by PackApologist on Oct 6, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh I agree
"A ringing single for David Eckstein who, in my view, is the perfect size for an American male." -Bob Costas
That's assuming
we can beat them at this point
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 6, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
wha'?
Lynch not an upgrade from Jackson or kuhn? That’s totally delusional TT thinking. You musta drank the TT kool-aid.
Moss to the Viqueens? Now if they’d only get Haynesworth they’d have every a-hole in the NFL. He’s gonna clash with Bert over who’s the biggest diva on the team.
Don't forget Mike Vick
If you want every A-Hole in the NFL you gotta also sign Ben Rapelisberger.
"A ringing single for David Eckstein who, in my view, is the perfect size for an American male." -Bob Costas
DN says it's a done deal
Everyone better watch out when they cross the street in MSP now…
Nance
How does anyone even know what we have in this guy, he’s only rushed twice for us… We know what we have with Kuhn and Jackson, I say give this guy the rock and see what he can do.
maybe he’s just not ready. He’s a rookie (or essentially one) on a new team with a different running system. He’s never even played a snap in pros before we played him for a couple so I am guessing there is a bit of a learning curve.
Agreed
Not saying he should know the entire playbook, but shouldn’t he be able to grasp a couple plays after a few weeks of practice?
My guess is they’d like to bring him in when we’re up enough, we just haven’t been there in the last couple of games.
I’d just like to see the guy before agreeing or disagreeing that someone else is a better option. How do we know Lynch is a better option?
Problem is
Not many teams activate 3 Running backs a game. Nance was inactive last week (if I remember right). Injuries have been the issue right now. We keep a guy like Nance inactive so we can dress another secondary, or another d-lineman.
"A ringing single for David Eckstein who, in my view, is the perfect size for an American male." -Bob Costas
Bah come on now
A third round pick for Randy Moss is a good deal. Yes he’s 33 and his numbers have been dropping at NE. However, he’s also tall as hell and still has a solid vert and great speed. We’ve been needing a receiver who can go up and fight for the ball to keep the interceptions low and finally we got one. Personally, I don’t think Moss is going to shoot us to the superbowl but it’s a good solid move that will take some pressure off of Berrian as well.
Now when Rice gets back and we have Moss, Rice, Shiancoe and Harvin on routes and AD running the ball. Well I think that will be something special.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Yeah...
for a third rounder, it’s worth it. Even if he doesn’t catch a bunch of balls, he draws so much attention that it’ll open things up in the middle for Shiancoe, for example. And I think Harvin is better from the slot, no? That should help him as well.
I like this trade. I want the chance to beat Favre and Moss at the same time. I say bring it on.
Bingo...
…that’s why I’m not convinced this is going to seal the deal for them. How effective will Favre be with happy feet getting pounded left and right?
That’s why they play games. We’ll see.
Acquiring Randy Moss
doesn’t magically heal Favre’s arm. Also, Hutchinson was not dominating last year and McKinnie’s not really a shutdown guy, and the right side is definitely worse than the left side, so regardless of who the Vikings line up wide, Favre’s still going to get hit alot.
"Tragedy is what happens to me. Comedy is what happens to you." -Mel Brooks
by jobe on Oct 6, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Oh yeah, the offensive line is in decline for sure but now all Favre has to do is throw the ball up in the air and there’s a good chance Moss is coming down with it.
by packallday555 on Oct 6, 2010 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not that simple
You can’t connect with Moss deep if your not getting adequate protection. If you can’t go deep with Randy, he’s more or less an expensive luxury. If you do go deep with Randy, your also exposing Favre to alot more chances to get hit.
"Tragedy is what happens to me. Comedy is what happens to you." -Mel Brooks
Clear to me...
That this is just another in a long line of desperation move by the vikes to save a season, a HC, a GM and a team in Minnesota! This has as much to do w/ a new stadium as it does trying to win… And IMO, you can’t operate in that world for very long! This is the last year, and IMO, last year was still by far the best shot at winning it all.
And smart by New England
Moss was not going to resign with the Patriots. Why not get something for him.
"A ringing single for David Eckstein who, in my view, is the perfect size for an American male." -Bob Costas
INteresting you bring up a porous o line
Since yours seems to be in the same situation if not worse. However I’m not here to trade jabs. I think the biggest issue with this isn’t the deep ball. It’s the fact that we don’t have to play Harvin on the outside anymore. He just didn’t have the height to play a good outside receiver but he has teh speed and quickness to be very dangerous in the slot. Putting Harvin back in the slot is a solid move in my mind. Getting Moss out there will for a while at least demand double coverage on him instead of Berrian. This has to improve Berrians game (it can’t get any worse right now)
Our O line while not the best in the NFL isn’t as bad as you make it out to be by far. I would say currently we have one of the better O lines in the NFC north. Now this is comparing to the Bears, the Pack and the Lions all who have terrible lines, but at least we havn’t given up 10 sacks in a game or three sacks in a first quarter…
The biggest thing it gives us though is a guy who will fight for a ball. Randy has and will jump of and contest for a ball, and honestly Favre needs someone like that badly right now. Oh and it will help stop people from stacking eight in the box against AD.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I honestly think these 2 moves
have single-handedly given the Division to the vikings. Moss gives Brett his safety net receiver. That guy he can throw the ball up to and hope they make a play. Plus, imagine the threat of facing Sidney Rice, Randy Moss, Percy Harvin in the slot, and Visanthe Shancoe (butchered spelling I know) with AD in the backfield. Tavaris Jackson could win with that team.
The lack of going for Lynch (for a 4th and 5th max) is very disheartening. No one respects our run. Hell, we don’t even respect our run so how can we expect the opposition to? Having a run game opens up receivers for Aaron, it makes the pass rush have to play the run and not just go for the QB. I know I know we ran against Detroit when they were expecting it… IT WAS DETROIT the WORST run def in the league and our run game was non-existent until that drive.
I’m a huge TT fan and usually one of first people to jump to defense when my friends and family bash him, but he completely missed the ball on this one and we just lost the division because of it and possibly the playoffs (I see wildcards from the South and East)
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 6, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think anyone ever doubled Berrian anyway!
Too easy to jam at the LOS, take out of his route that way. Not too mention his hands and route running have always been suspect! Double Berrian? Not a chance I would ever bother!
I think our offensive line is actually pretty similar to yours. Two tackles who have struggled to give there Qb time, and an interior linemen (Colledge in our case and Herrea in yours) who is almost worthless.
Totally agree about Harvin. It’s clear he’s just not very good on the outside. Put him back in the slot, and he’ll produce. He could end up being similar to what Welker is for New England (not as good in my opinion though).
by packallday555 on Oct 6, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't know...
Rice and Moss are about the same player to me… I don’t know, but this tells me that Rice isn’t going to be able to play this season! Otherwise its REALLY grasping at straws. Makes total sense if Rice can’t play this year, but little if Rice is able to return at full strength! And your paying a 3rd for Moss for this season only! I don’t see him being there when Favre retires after this year. Is he really going to want to catch passes from TJack? Not hardly… This is just the latest in a series of desperation moves to win a SB at all costs, next year be damned!!!
I understand that a new contract was not part of the deal for Moss. Correct, or no?
If that’s true, Moss gets to be the saviour, not tied to the Vikes and eligible for another signing bonus if he pulls it out. The Pats get another draft pick out of a player that they weren’t going to sign for next year, anway. The Vikes get a player they need to turn their season around and don’t have to deal with him next year when Rice is healthy and Favre is gone. Sounds like a win win win all the way around. TT – are you paying attention here?
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
TT doesn't rent players for half a season...
He builds team that are capable of sustained success! So no Thompson wouldn’t do a trade like this, and I’m fine w/ that.
Who?
If you mean Rison we got him for NOTHING! Other than that I can’t think of Wolf acquiring a player in a trade for half a season. Its one thing to get Rison for half a season for absolutely NOTHING and quite another to give up a 3rd for that player! And Jackson was traded for believing he would play more than just one year in Green and Gold! He was still only 30 when he retired and could have been very effective for 3-5 more years. He just wanted to move on after winning his SB ring!
sustained success
can be achieved a number of different ways. I think TT does a great job via the draft. He’s even done some nice things in FA with Woodson, Pickett, etc. Where I think he’s lacking is in acquiring players like Moss and Lynch that have been in the league for a while. The ‘major’ FA signings don’t tend to work all that well. I’m not suggesting overpaying, either.
HOWEVER, just because a guy like Lynch or Moss can be had in the middle of the season doesn’t mean that they can’t fit into our long range plans and success. If they’re right for our system, and to me, that’s where the real argument lies, then I’d take a veteran whos had success over a rookie that’s learning pretty much any day.
Look what Seattle did after TT came here. They had a pretty solid roster, but the new gm filled some key holes and they went to the super bowl. I see the same thing happening here and it’s quite frustrating.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t have had a problem w/ getting Lynch and said I would do a 3rd but no more! Also said that I didn’t think Thompson would do it! And Lynch could help in the long term… But is he a necessary piece? No, I don’t think so… IMO, STarks may provide as much of a lift as Lynch!
Its not like Thompson hasn’t tried to make the deals either… He did try to trade for Moss, but that didn’t work out and a recent fan post discussed why. He did try to trade for Gonzo, but KC upped the ante at the last minute and Thompson balked!
Maybe its the same, but I think he sticks to what he believes they are worth gambling on and won’t go for more than that! Is that good or bad? Don’t know but it is Thompson’s MO…
I think it’s Groucho Marx that said “if you don’t like my opinion, I have others”
What I envision when you say “it’s not like Thompson hasn’t tried to make deals” is a bunch of guys in a bar TRYING to get some action. They all go to George Webbs and say “I was this close to that hot blonde” and they all console themselves with the fact that she’s probably a lesbian. It’s like Yoda said – there is no try, only do.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you do the deal w/o regard to what you think their value is?
Sorry but that isn’t flying w/ me… Have to put value on everything and pay for value, but don’t overpay! But hey thats just me I guess!
didn't say that
to be that close that many times….sorry, but something is amiss.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Overpay?
who said ANYTHING about overpayment? If I take your argument at face value, which you’ve done with mine, I would suggest that you’re saying that either Seattle “overpaid” or that TT has somehow set the definition of what “reasonable compensation” is. Clearly most pundits feel Seattle got a bargain. What would it have cost to outbid them even by a little bit? Probably not all that much. If you’re in for a penny, seal the deal and get it done. That’s all I’m trying to say.
and to use your statement – I don’t care what else you have to say on the matter.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Worth it to seattle
But to give up a 3rd from Thompson? Not as easily… Remember he got JMike in the 3rd, James Jones, and a few others in that round… thats starting to get a little risky. Considering how well Thompson has done in that round! Just sayin…
In your opinion something may happen?
I’ve gotta get on the next flight to Vegas!!
Towlieppan: "You wanna throw high?"
Moss has more speed than Rice.
Rice is a possesion receiver like Fitzgerald. Moss is a speed guy with a lot of height and verticle. They are similar but Randy has the speed to run an out and make a slower CB flag behind.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I don't get why Moss would want this
To leave one of the better run organizations in football where he played with arguably the top QB and coach for a one year shot with a QB who suddenly looks his age and a coach who isn’t even good enough to control his team. Say the Vikings don’t win it all, Favre retires, and TarVar or some rookie is the starting QB, does Moss start whining again? This guy has already whined his way off of three teams.
It wasn’t his choice. BUT it gives him a chance to look like a savior again which mean straight cash money homey!
This move...
could backfire for the Vikings. Remember, Brady threw it to him 10 times against the Jets and Moss caught 2 passes (another was intercepted, Cromartie deserved PI but was never called). Farve could make things worse by trying to fit it to him in triple coverage. Moss isn’t as fast as he once was, but he’s still dangerous, and teams know that. But Farve doesn’t have any problems lobbing passes into double coverage.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
There's only one "star" on the Patriots
And it’s Brady. Everyone else is varying degrees of second fiddle. Moss was king second fiddle until Welker came and stole his spotlight. And then Gronkowski came along this year and became a third. Moss keeps being moved down on that list, to no fault of his own, he’s doing his job.
But if you’re an egotistical guy like Moss, just doing your job doesn’t give you the attention you crave. The Vikings, however, have no second fiddle right now, and Moss can be that guy.
Doubt that...
I have no idea why you’d do this sort of deal when you face the team you’re trading a playing to later in the season. The Patriots have about a billion top selections (the Raiders, their own, and a 2nd rounder from the Panthers as well as their own 2nd round selection). Essentially they traded Randy Moss for the 30th pick in the 3rd round. They’d be better off trading him for the 1st pick of the 4th round IMO.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Pats
Did this cuz they have no interest is Moss after this season! They werent going to re-sign him, so they traded him and got what they could for him! Just like Richard Seymour last season!
yep
and that’s exactly what we should have done with Kampman the other year – get something out of it.
Monkeys for nothing and your chimps for free.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Ted Thompson
He ain’t no Sultan of Swinging Trades either.
Yeah thats a good point, but
Kampman brought soo much to the organization besides just what he did on the field! Great team player, leader, mentor, awesome community guys… All the things Moss isn’t! We’ll still get some compensation for Kampman. Maybe a 3rd rd compensatory pick if he plays really well! Hows he doing in Jax? In hindsight its easy to say he should have been traded, but it was a good attempt to try him at OLB and the right way to handle such a classy player and person!
Kampman is a great person. NO argument there.
It’s just that it was clear he was a fish out of water. The experiment failed. I think we all knew it last year. No point in trying to force a round peg in a square hole. It would have been best for both Kampman and the organization.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Just sayin
But I think the trade deadline was past by the time it became obvious Kampman wouldn’t work and he also tore his knee about about the same time! You probably have a different opinion and I’m not interested in argueing it w/ you.
You probably have a different opinion and I’m not interested in argueing it w/ you. listening to you
Fixed
Towlieppan: "You wanna throw high?"
by GoGregGo on Oct 6, 2010 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just as a reminder.
Compensatory picks are awarded based on the amount of the contract the player signed and his performance.
If Kampman performs very well he still signed for an amount that would maximize his compensatory pick at the 4th round.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
How do you know his contract maximized the pick in the fourth round?
The formula they use to determine that isn’t made public
Towlieppan: "You wanna throw high?"
From what I've read and know on the subject.
The Packers can easily get a 3rd if Kampman plays well. He doen’t even have to be a Pro Bowler! He got a top $$$ contract, that alone prolly makes it a 4th… Good production and it goes up!
Buh?
Essentially they traded Randy Moss for the 30th pick in the 3rd round. They’d be better off trading him for the 1st pick of the 4th round IMO.
How exactly is trading him for any pick in the 4th round better than trading him for any pick in the 3rd round?
Towlieppan: "You wanna throw high?"
By that time,
the available talent in the top of the 4th round is essentially the same as the bottom of the 3rd round. There’s just a shiny little number as far as draft status; it doesn’t make a player any better or any worse.
Just my opinion.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, the talent is about equal
but how is a slightly later pick better than a slightly earlier pick?
Towlieppan: "You wanna throw high?"
Well...
How about a comparison of Greg Jennings to Sinorice Moss or Chad Jackson? Both Moss and Jackson were taken before Jennings, and Chad Jackson so far has been a giant bust. Sinorice Moss is getting massively dogged for failing to crack the starting lineup in NY and has been overtaken by three recent Giant draft selections (Steve Smith, Mario Manningham, and Hakeem Nicks).
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Or...
Dwayne Jarrett to Steve Smith of New York? Jarrett was drafted to be the number 2 alongside Steve Smith of Carolina, but he was just released after his second DUI in as many years and recorded 4 receptions for 35 yards in 3 seasons.
Steve Smith of the Giants, on the other hand, exploded for 107 receptions and 7 TDs last year.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
And I'm sure if I had the mind to
I could match every “This player drafted slightly after this player had a better career” with a “This player drafted slightly ahead of this player had a better career”. That’s not an argument for taking a fourth round pick instead of a third round pick.
Let’s consider this hypothetical to try to demonstrate my point. Say instead of trading Moss to the Vikings for a third rounder, they traded him to the 49ers for their 4th rounder (I’m not saying SF has an desire to do so, I picked them based on probable draft position). So instead of having, say, the 25-30 pick of the third round they get the 1-5 pick of the fourth round.
Now the Pats have done their homework (no stretch there), and they really like Player X towards the end of the third to beginning of the fourth round. Unbeknown to them, the Superbowl champion team also wants him in that same area. With a third round pick the Pats get the player they want, with a fourth round pick they don’t.
We can sit here all day and give examples of similar draft positions and vastly different careers, but the bottom line is any third round pick is more valuable than any fourth round pick when you aren’t talking about specific players attached to those picks, which is exactly what is being traded for.
Towlieppan: "You wanna throw high?"
You're making my point with Stroh for me
to be so close with Lynch, Moss, Gonzalez, etc…..so, thanks.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
You're welcome?
I’m not sure how I’m helping you, but I’ll take credit, I guess.
Towlieppan: "You wanna throw high?"
he was saying that Seattle has nothing to play for (despite the division they play in and we’re only 4 games into the season) and that their 4th rounder is higher and therefore better than our 4th round pick. So, you come in and say “eh….doesn’t really matter that much” that’s all I’m talking about.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice to know you don't mind opening your mouth when you know nothing about what your talking about
The Pats were not going to resign Moss, they basically came out and said it when they resigned Brady. Brady even said it when in his acceptance speech for the most money made ever he said that the team came first and even though some people who he liked very much would not be with them next year the sport is a business..
So no Moss did not pull a hissy fit or whatever. He may honestly just not want to play at a place he doesn’t thing appreciates him. This does fall into what I have seen of Moss in the past and while not the most impressive attribute I can understand it.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Does Moss have to approve the trade? (legit question – not being sarcastic). If no, then he has no say in where he plays – and your point is even more soundly made.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
He doesn't approve of the trade however he has to approve of the contract
So if he doesn’t approve of the contract then he either stays at NE or they toss him. However, the contract I don’t think has even been finalized and Randy stated he’d be practicing with the Vikings. So you read into that what you want.
Personally I’m taking this all with a giant truck load of salt as rumor and innuendo in the NFL is almost as bad as a womans book club…
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
not sure I follow that
the contract from NE follows him. He’s already approved that one. It’s what he’s currently playing under regardless of the team paying him. He will be a FA at the end of the season unless he signs a new one with the Vikings – which I understand he did not.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Once again, we have to read about Minnesota going out on the open market...
and spending money to make their team better and win NOW. While we sit on our hands and talk about how it’s a better policy to “build through the draft”.
Yup, let’s wait for next year’s draft to get a decent running back. that’s the prudent thing to do, of course….(he said sarcastically)
Exactly
I wouldn’t have minded see Lynch in GB, but I’m not falling all over myself w/ praise for the guy either! Thats Trevor’s job!! LOL He would have helped late in the season, but I’m not upset the deal didn’t happen either! For now Kuhn needs to get more carries and he can be serviceable. As usual this tells me that Thompson is sold on Starks being a good option this season. Something I tend to agree with! Its Thompson’s MO to give his draft picks the chance to sink or swim, This is no different!
Lynch
was one personal conduct violation away from a Ron Artest-length suspension by Goodell. Maybe Caroll’s team is the right place for him.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Homer-ism
Usually this site is pretty fair when discussing our beloved Packers, but saying that Lynch wouldn’t be an upgrade but Moss is easily the best Vikes receiver is blatant homer-ism.
Lynch is a decade younger than Moss. Moss is QUITTING on the team of the decade while Lynch has been stuck on the WORST team of the decade. Minnie’s receivers are better than our running backs. C’mon man.
Agreed, some shoddy reporting by Brandon here today...
Trade for Moss was a 3rd rounder, not a 1st rounder.
And anybody who’s not deluding themselves knows Lynch would be a tremendous upgrade over the current stable of backs.
Please, man. I can get green-and-gold colored homerism elsewhere, we come here for the educated football talk. You just took it down a notch with this blather….
If you think you can do a better job
go ahead and start another Packers blog.
"Tragedy is what happens to me. Comedy is what happens to you." -Mel Brooks
by jobe on Oct 6, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't say "tremendous" upgrade...
…but Greg Bedard over WSJ has essentially taken the same position as Brandon. So even if it’s minority point of view, don’t down play as just “blather.”
Trashing the admins is a great way to get banned, I understand.
Maybe Stampede Blue would understand your opinions.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I think this guy is just a Vikings troll
"Tragedy is what happens to me. Comedy is what happens to you." -Mel Brooks
Here's what everyone is missing...
If Brandon Jackson gets 50 yards a game, and Kuhn gets 25 yards a game, is that bad???
Think about it, that’s 75 yards per game. 75 yards x 16 games= 1,200 yards! That’s roughly equal to Grant’s production!
combined they got 72 yards last game. If the line continues to improve runblocking, and as Jackson and Kuhn get more reps, we will hit that 75.
I bet that’s what TT saw…he sees 75 × 16 = 1,200. And it’s doable with Bjack and Kuhn!
REC ME IF i MAKE SENSE!
THE POINT
The issue isn’t whether Jackson and or Kuhn is bad. The issue is whether having Lynch improves the Packers. It would be a significant upgrade having Lynch. End of issue.
The issue is ...
precisely whether Kuhn + Jackson are good enough! Everyone is assuming we can’t win with the guys we have (last time I checked we are mostly 3-1 with them)…
check out Bedard’s blog on where he compares favorably our RBs with the eight teams in the last 4 super bowls. We give up a third and a 6th for a guy we don’t need (and won’t learn the playbook by week 8 or 9)
I rather keep our chips and maybe make a move to shore up are fast depleting secondary and/or linebackers.
But...
if these guys fall flat on their faces, then you have every right to say “told you say”. Especially if Lynch rips it up in Seattle…
Here's hoping
Moss helps the Vikes win as many super bowls as he helped the Pats win.
by drezdn on Oct 6, 2010 11:19 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Lynch Thompson
There is no question Lynch would considerable upgrade the Packer ground game. There is no question the Packers are attempting a Superbowl run. Lynch is a known quantity as opposed to a draft choice. Thompson’s job is to improve the Packers by ALL means at his disposal. If teams teams have no respect for the run game it will and has made things harder for the passing game. I have defended Thompson often, but his intransigence is hurting the team.
Trade with Seahawks...
With Lynch in Seattle now, what about trying to get a trade going with them for say possibly Forsett?
I'm going to agree with Brandon
except on the Moss trade.
I think the Pats gain with this trade if they get a good draft pick. Odds are that Moss wouldn’t have stayed and the Pats have to think about longevity. It’ll hurt them in the short run, but an inconsistent Moss wasn’t going to bring them to the SB anyway.
I’m not sold on the Vikes problems being totally a receivers issue. It’s a team issue. Moss will force some extra coverages that will help open up things for Harvin, but it’s all for naught if he’s not in synch with Favre.
With regard to the RB situation, I’m going to keep saying this: give the backfield mroe opportunities to make plays and they will. John Kuhn looks to be shaping up. If he and Jackson can get more touches, changing the O-lines role from a primarily blocking role to a pushing one at least a few more downs per quarter, we’ll see some progress.
"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser." - Vince Lombardi
While I do agree that Moss will not instantly make us better
I do think he’ll make our team better for the duration. Also, other than our WR’s and our shakey QB what team issues do you see with Minnesota? I only ask because our running game is strong, or defense is stout and our special teams well they are about average. So the only thing we’re missing is the passing. Our QB is having issues with his receivers, he doesn’t have anyone who will really fight for the ball, the slot guy is stuck out on the sidelines where his size and agility don’t help at all. While Berrian is getting double teamed and he’s just not good enough to get past that. I’m thinking even if Moss doesn’t know how to run the playbook we still put him out there just to pull defenders to him. I’m pretty sure he still knows how to run an out or a hitch and Favres arm can still hurl the long ball when needed.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
coaching
I think that’s the primary thing holding you back. Lots of those problems you mention could be solved with some creative coaching and play calling.
Granted MM was outcoached by Lovie Smith (I think I need to wash my hands after typing that), so it’s not exactly like we’re above reproach here, either.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
coaching
The Bear game wasn’t lost by coaching. It was lost by lousey execution and stupid player mistakes.
I would have let them score so we get the ball back with time on the clock so I can give my star QB a chance to win the game. That’s coaching.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
tolerating stupid mistakes IS coaching. Under MM I think it’s fair to say that the Packers have had a discipline problem with stupid presnap penalites. That is coaching. And discipline is a slipper slope. If Collins had self discipline, he wouldn’t have gotten that personal foul. If he had self discipline, he wouldn’t have flipped off that fan. Discipline starts with the coaching staff.
by gern blanston on Oct 6, 2010 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Front OL...
Its been rather unimpressive. Loadholt thus far is showing growing pains, and Bryant McKinnie has been a massive disappointment (literally) on passing downs.
Those are possibly the most important areas of the offense, Right and Left Tackle, and their performance is crucial to a good passing attack.
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Loadholt has been brutal this year
McKinney has not been stellar but I wouldn’t call him Clifton just yet… :D I woudl hope that our coaching staff could fix this but it doesn’t seem like they see the same problem.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Sadly...
It looks like the Vikings would be better off tanking and grabbing big Gabe Carimi out of Wisconsin next season. Any draft deals with terrible teams that we know of?
I'm just glad Scott Tolzien didn't go all Drew Tate on Nick Toon and whack him upside the head...
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Oct 6, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Who cares about the Vikings?
Don’t the Vikings have blogs where their woes can be discussed. The Packers have there own problems.
By the way Kuhn did a workmans job at the end of the Detroit game
He may be your man.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Not sold on him
we ran against detroit… The WORST run def in the league. He hasn’t shown anything outside of that drive that would make me think he’s our go to guy
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 6, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Eh, he ran against Detroit true
But you really as a ball club never get into a running rhythm. Instead you bang your head on a wall once or twice then pass. Then try it one more time and pass. If you want to run you have to commit to it for a while and I just don’t see MM doing that with Rodgers in the back field.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I would agree w/ that 100%
unfortunately, I think part of our inability to commit to run for more then a few plays is only partially because we have an all-star QB. I also think its a large part that we lack the talent to have a solid run game. We have a mediocre back atm and a mediocre line. With that setup we’re forced to play the pass and abandon the run
by Goldenarmadillo4 on Oct 6, 2010 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Seattle ecstatic over Lynch pickup
As a Packer fan in Seattle it kills me that the Seahawks, with former Packer John Schneider as GM, can pull Lynch from Buffalo, but the Packers are stuck in cement and can’t do a thing. If the running game does not improve the Packers will have to pay a much higher price for a lot less down the road.
you'd swear
…we were 0-4 with all the bitching and wringing of hands here. You know you’re through the looking glass when the (self-admitted) Vikings troll on the boards sounds like the most reasonable voice. Calm the @#$% down, people. Sheesh.
Lynch would have probably been a marginal upgrade over Jackson and Kuhn. He’s not a very good fit for the Packers’ running scheme, and he wasn’t exactly lighting the world on fire – Fred Jackson was a upgrade over him for the Bills. Still, he’s probably still capable of playing the workhorse role and putting up nearly 4 yards/carry. So if he was free or super cheap, then we grab him. But Seattle outbid us, and TT isn’t going to overpay for a marginal upgrade on a short term rental. It didn’t happen, and it probably doesn’t matter a whole heckuva lot. Get over it already.
Moss to the Vikings will be an interesting match. I can see Favre being way too keyed in to establishing his own version of the Randy Ratio, which should probably yield more INTs. On the other hand, Moss down field probably means more breakaway opportunities for Peterson. I say it’s a wash. I do think this signals serious doubts in Minny about Rice coming back this year in any reliable form this year.
The Vikings remain the odds-on co-favorite for the division with the Packers, but the Bears are a threat as well. I don’t think the Moss trade or the Packers’ non-acquisition of Lynch changes anything.
by swilldog on Oct 6, 2010 2:41 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
GENERALLY
I’ve said the same thing many times that Packer fans have a “Chicken Little” complex. But, IMO, what Thompson has done (or not done) is unforgivable given his charge. His philosophy of build from within is wonderful. Fine, we get that. But he/we have a team on the cusp of contending. We have a weakness at RB, which every DC in the NFL knows. A good one is available and the man passes. Lynch is a know quantity who could help this team NOW. Thompson’s intransigence has also demoralized the team a la Woodson’s comments.
Exactly. At some point he needs to realize this. He’s done a great job of building a strong core through the draft. We’re on the cusp now but still have some weaknesses. So go out, and fix them if the opportunity presents itself.
by packallday555 on Oct 7, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
amen
Lynch is a microcosm of where his philosophy falls short. It’s like i said previously – Seattle had a great roster when TT was there. TT comes here, the new guy fills some key holes and boom, they’re in the super bowl. I think we are in exactly that same boat.
by gern blanston on Oct 7, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Hey Brandon!
A lot of these guys are really calling you out. Why don’t you come on and defend yourself? I’d like to hear what the reasoning for your stand is (not saying I agree or disagree, but I’d like to hear what you have to say).

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