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Season Reviews: Allen Barbre

While our 2009 wasn't as successful as it was for other teams, we saw enough to expect more success in 2010 and beyond.  There's a lot to like about the Green Bay Packers going forward, unless of course you're cheering for the other team.  But which players fit in the best?  Which don't?  Which ones are keepers, and which ones need to be driven out of town?  It's time to look at who did well (and who didn't),  and ultimately what their role will be going forward.

It's the end of 2008, and Green Bay's starting tackle tears his ACL.  There's no telling whether or not he'll be back in time for 2009, a crossroads made all the more complex by his status as an unrestricted free agent.  There are a few options for the team.  Number one is to find a rookie replacement in the draft.  This was a popular stance, given the abundance of talent at OT, especially in the first round.  The second was to find a replacement in free agency, which could have worked as easily as it could have imploded.  The final option was the most understated, the most logical, and the most dangerous, all at the same time.

Bench-tales_medium



Star-divide

Going into training camp, the Packers had two choices to replace the then-departed Mark Tauscher: Breno Giacomini and Allen Barbre.  Tauscher was like a New York strip steak where you knew exactly what you were gonna get.  But with the local steakhouse shut down (temporarily), you've got to eat somewhere else, and you end up at an Indian restaurant choosing between paneer masala and saag korma. 

For the record, both dishes are exquisite and delicious if you go to the right place.  But to the lay person, unless you've studied them both up close, you've got no idea whatsoever as to which is better for you.  And we tried to explore it, but it's like trying to determine which dish is a better fit by just glancing at the menu. 

Considering the relative dearth of knowledge regarding these two players' readiness as starters, the 2009 preseason sealed the deal for Allen Barbre.  After all, he got the starter reps, and the Green Bay starters set the world aflame during the preseason.  And then the season started and defenses actually tried to get after Rodgers and Barbre turned into a human turnstile. 

So what happened?  Mainly, the offense was forced to choose between helping Barbre on the right side and helping Chad Clifton on the left, who had more than his fair share of failures in pass protection.  Barbre was left alone to learn on the job, seemingly indefinitely.  Then, of course, Mark Tauscher was resigned, worked his way back into playing shape, and Green Bay went on a second-half run to end the season at 11-5. 

But at what cost?  After all, Barbre had shown some development over the course of the season.  Yes, he was the scapegoat for the offense that was a league-leader in sacks allowed.  Yes, the likes of Adewale Ogunleye, Ray Edwards, and Antwan Odom ran roughshod over his stumbling bumbling sorry-excuse-for-a-tackle hide from time to time.  But he showed glimpses of dominating run blocking and surprisingly potent pass protection every so often. 

Maybe 2009 is what he needed.  Maybe he needed to win out against Giacomini (can we talk about how bad 2009 would have been were Breno the starter?) and be thrown into the fire and left there until Tauscher healed his knee fully.  Maybe he can use this past season as motivation to improve his game to the point where he can be a viable option and not just a contingency plan. 

As always, players like Barbre need the offseason like fish need water.  Physical tools?  Definitely.  Valuable experience?  Absolutely.  Confidence?  I'm sure he'd tell you he's confident, but you and I aren't quick to agree.  Integrating his mind and body seamlessly?  There's the ticket.

All of the intangibles are things that reveal themselves in due time.  However, learning how to recognize defensive schemes, how to attack oncoming defenders, how to keep proper technique, and which assignments go with what calls are all things that can be improved between now and September.  Will he do it and lobby for the position of Mark Tauscher's replacement a second time?  Or will he fall to the wayside as the team seeks to not repeat the same mistake twice?

Poll
Where will Barbre go in 2010 and beyond?
Uphill: 2009 was a learning experience; he showed he can play and will improve.
189 votes
About the same: A first-year starter, but his strengths and weaknesses cancel each other out.
169 votes
Downhill: 2009 was as good as we can expect, he'll never see the field unless there's a tragedy.
195 votes

553 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 110 comments |

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Could The Packers Make A Trade?

Mar 2010 by Brandon - 13 comments

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The guy maybe has upside at LG because like you pointed out he was actually a pretty good run blocker. I don’t think he’ll ever be a good RT though. I watched him just allow his guy to simply run by him without even touching him to many times, and when he did manage to somewhat stay in front of his guy all it took was one move to beat him.

Giancomini interests me a little bit. I read a pretty interesting article, and while McGinn questions how good he really could be because of not getting any playing time when both Tauscher and Barbre were out, McGinn makes it sound as though he has good potential. Here’s the link: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/79701042.html

by packallday555 on Feb 8, 2010 10:14 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

Show Colledge the door, move Barbre to LG, insert Lang at RT, resign Clifton for one more year at LT, and draft your next LT this year and groom him for a season behind Clifton.

by keithprime on Feb 8, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep, that would be pretty much perfect. Colledge is pretty much horrible, and just needs to go. If Barbre doesn’t work out at LG, then move Spitz back to LG, keep Wells at C, and Lang at RT.

by packallday555 on Feb 8, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with you

Allen Barbre is our strongest and most athletic offensive lineman. With that said, I think he fits the mold of a Guard better. He was a good run blocker, which makes him an ideal fit for our Left Guard vacancy as Darryn Colledge is likely to be released (hopefully).

I’d prefer to put TJ Lang at RT and draft our franchise LT in the upcoming draft. Let Clifton and Tauscher test the Free Agent Market.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 8, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Sounds like a great strategy to me!

by TrevorR on Feb 8, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Indian Food?

Look, being a writer myself I understand the desire to try to use some creativity. But to compare a tackle to some curry-encrusted pickled meat-dish is a little much, don’t you think?

I think you get to the right point, but follow the wrong path. Barbre has shown enough talent, possibly, to become a below-average right tackle in the NFL. He did not have the benefit of a RB chipping or a TE staying in to help nearly as much as he should have, NOT because of the need to help Clifton, but rather because of the need to help the LG, Colledge, who assuredly does NOT have the talent to become even a below-average NFL guard.

Could Barbre play guard? Possibly, but I think Lang is better suited to play there. After Tauscher and Clifton, both of whom are on the down sides of their solid careers, there really aren’t any legitimate tackles on the roster. I think Barbre may be the best choice at RT presently on the roster, if Tauscher can’t go another year, but he truly is a Turkish dish of tepsi boreli.

by ktenreb on Feb 8, 2010 1:21 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Look, being a writer myself I understand the desire to try to use some creativity. But to compare a tackle to some curry-encrusted pickled meat-dish is a little much, don’t you think?

In my defense, I wrote this article in the Sacramento airport at 8 PM while two-deep into some local pale ale. My “are you really gonna publish that?” filter was admittedly slow on the uptake, and I apologize.

And you make good points on the actual football talk as well.

"Brandon Jennings needs a nickname before he gives himself one. Oh wait, Young Money, he already did."

by Mitchell_M on Feb 8, 2010 5:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey ,I'd appreciate some help here.

Trying to take my fandom and understanding of the Packers to a deeper level this offseason. I’m seein here a theme for next season of Wells at C, Lang at RT, Babre moved to the interior line. Clifton at LT again, maybe for the short run?

How high is the OL draft priority this April? And what should the entire revised line look like today in y’alls opinion? Who do you currently have and value at these five spots?

by coltsfanawalt on Feb 8, 2010 3:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

This is what I want

Clifton – Beluga
Lang – Spitz
Sptiz – Wells
Sitton -Spitz
Tauscher – Giocammi

and Beluga takes over after four games (which will also be when Clifton pulls his hammy)
and we will probably draft more interior linemen to give some depth so Spitz wont backup everywhere

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Feb 8, 2010 9:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for your thoughts here and below.

“which will also be when Clifton pulls his hammy” Well played, sir!

by coltsfanawalt on Feb 9, 2010 1:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

to be honest, he may backup before Giocamni or in one of the guard spots

but I just dont like him

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Feb 9, 2010 11:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Beluga?

OUCH.

Did you by any chance mean Bulaga?

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Feb 9, 2010 9:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah I fail at spelling

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Feb 10, 2010 4:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's a stab at next year's O-line

LT — Clifton. No other candidates on the roster.
LG — Lange. His future is in the interior of the line, not as a tackle.
C — Spitz. Wells is reliable, but below average. Spitz is stronger and better.
RG — Sitton. He is a good guard. He may not become a pro bowler, but he will be solid.
RT — well . . . . Think Tausch can give us another year? If not, a free agent stopgap, or a rookie, might be the answer.

I believe that a tackle is a very high draft priority, along with a CB. Note that i said a “tackle,” and not an “offensive lineman,” and that I said a “CB” and not a “DB.” I think that Thompson needs to focus on bringing in players to play particular positions, not generalists that perhaps can play several.

by ktenreb on Feb 8, 2010 4:51 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

So if you get a first round OT,

who do you think he repalces? Tauscher or Clifton? Or does he wait in the wings for a season and learn the ropes? What do you prefer?

by coltsfanawalt on Feb 8, 2010 5:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Clifton

Tauscher is a rock and after what I saw at the end of this season I think he will make it through one more,
Clifton however, cant avoid the injury bug anymore, but he will start at first until the first rounder can take over after a few games then back up when healthy

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Feb 8, 2010 9:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be my guess too. Tauscher actually was pretty solid for us this year and his knee will likely feel even a little better next year. And if he does happen to get injured we can always move Lang out to RT, and shift Spitz to LG with Wells going in at C.

We need to draft a true LT, and preferrably one of the top 5 ones in the draft who would all likely be able to contribute sometime within the year.

by packallday555 on Feb 8, 2010 10:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that Thompson needs to focus on bringing in players to play particular positions, not generalists that perhaps can play several.

complete agreement with you here. hopefully TT does just that.

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 8, 2010 6:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think this is what I would most like to see. Lang would be best at LG but what he ends up playing will likely depend on what we do with Tauscher. I think Tauscher could give us another solid year, as his knee will likely feel even better next year but anything beyond that would be silly to expect. We have to have Clifton on the roster next year because like you pointed out we don’t have anybody else on the roster who can play this position. I’m with you on Spitz being put back at C as well. If we’re able to put Lang at LG, Spitz at C, and Sitton at RG we may actually have a solid interior line that would probably be able to open up some holes for Grant.

I believe that a tackle is a very high draft priority, along with a CB. Note that i said a "tackle," and not an "offensive lineman," and that I said a "CB" and not a "DB." I think that Thompson needs to focus on bringing in players to play particular positions, not generalists that perhaps can play several.

Amen to this! Seeing Thompson constantly take OL who “can play multiple positions” is getting old and very frustrating. Because while it can be nice to have guys that can play multiple spots, they usually can only play those spots at an average-below average level. We need to draft a couple of true OTs. The interior line actually seems like it’s pretty well in place for the future, and with that being said we don’t need to draft a couple of guys that are tweeners.

by packallday555 on Feb 8, 2010 10:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh my God.

That actually happened.

/shamed

"Brandon Jennings needs a nickname before he gives himself one. Oh wait, Young Money, he already did."

by Mitchell_M on Feb 8, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

offseason

The stupidbowl just ended and I am not sure I am worried anymore about what Ted Thompson is going to do to this team. I just don’t find it in me anymore to care. Until Mark Murphy, Ted Thompson and…EVERYBODY…is gone I have no interest anymore. I will watch Brett Favre. He is the only redeeming thing about football these days. The rest of the NFL is corrupt. There is too much racism in the NFL. The Rooney Rule is a joke. Players can take drugs and get away with it (Vikings/Saints and whoever else). If they didn’t take anything, then the NFL is trying to screw them over which is just as bad. The refs can’t seem to get much right even in important games (like championship games), doling out fines later for infractions that would have changed the game if called during the contest. Sometimes it almost seems as if the NFL is purposefully steering certain teams towards the superbowl. Why? For ratings? More money?

Talking about what Ted Thompson is going to do is laughable at this point. I just don’t care anymore. Once Favre retires, I will not watch the NFL. These players want more money. The NFL wants more money. The owners want more money. People are starving in the street. I would use certain language to all these NFL people, but I usually do not use that kind of language. I know Favre makes a lot of money too. In the end he probably isn’t much different than the rest. He is still part of the system. At least he seems innocent and plays the game with passion. He doesn’t cheat or lie, unlike everyone else. Favre is one man who will tell you exactly how he feels, even if it hurts his image. So what if he sheds a few tears? I’ll take that over lying to the fans and covering up scandals.

The future looks bright for this team? It does not. This team does not have a bright future. With the people in charge around here, these are not the Packers I grew up to admire. These are frauds wearing the same colors, deceivers and liars. Do you think they care about the fans? Of course not. They might care about image. They won the PR war when they booted Favre to NY. Thompson wanted Favre out for years. He made that clear the day he came in and destroyed the team in order to “rebuild” it. Amazing how short your memories are. The Packers were winners before that fool, Thompson, showed up. He DESTROYED the best O-line in football. He hasn’t been able to put a line together since. Now we are complaining about what we are going to do about it? Go ahead and love him for destroying your team.

Face it. Ted Thompson is the worst thing to happen to Green Bay in a long time.

Mike Sherman was a better GM. Mike Sherman was a better coach. He understood that an offense is built around the O-line. Without the men up front, the offense doesn’t function. Remember the days of Ahman Green behind that stout offensive line? Favre didn’t have to do much. Sadly, they fell short of the superbowl, despite winning the NFC North nearly every year and four years in a row before Ted Thompson disgraced the Packers with his presence. This is not to say that Mike Sherman was great. He was not. The sad truth was that Favre did not have a lot of talent much of his career in Green Bay. The final years were the worst because of Ted Thompson. What might have been a chance to win a couple Super Bowls, were instead ruined by Thompson’s desire to build his own legacy at the cost of a real champion. Ted Thompson will end up as a footnote in Packers history. Eventually, he will be released. The Packers will not flourish while Thompson is GM. Aaron Rodgers may be a good QB (thanks much in part to watching Favre for a few years). But he is NOT Brett Favre. Favre would still be an improvement over Aaron Rodgers. Instead, we get to watch the Packers lose to the upper level teams. This is not just about Favre. This is about truth. Thompson is a liar. He is not a smart person. He does not know what it takes to build a good football team (hint: offensive line). His draft choices have been sketchy at best, with a few good hits (Rodgers, Jennings, maybe Mathews). The rest of his draft choices haven’t been so good, and some have been pretty awful. I don’t need to remind you of how many times he missed on draft day.

The Packers will not reach that upper level. Until Ted Thompson and the rest of those pretenders are out, I simply don’t care anymore. I will always remain a Packers fan. I will be a true Packers fan, not a fair weather fan. I stand by the team, not the tricksters dressed up, running the show.

Just remember who you have to blame for why you are concerned about the offensive line.

by starmark on Feb 8, 2010 10:11 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

So get lost

As Vince Lombardi said, “No player is bigger than a team.” If you take the side of Favre, you are going against Green Bay’s biggest legend in Lombardi. You might as well just take a hike, because you won’t be missed. Adios!

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 8, 2010 10:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It is more than just Favre

I know it was a long post. There are plenty of reasons why I am losing my interest in football. Perhaps you missed the point. Maybe I simply needed to let off some steam. I will not apologize for it. Still, there are many legends in Green Bay. If Vince Lombardi is the biggest, greatest Packer, remembered and loved, but went on to another team, then why do we give anyone else such grief for going to another team? These double standards from other Packer fans are foolish.

by starmark on Feb 9, 2010 8:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude!

I am no Ted Thompson fan (my good friend GGGarner will vouch for that), but all is not gloom and doom. Yes, Aaron Rodgers has the personality of a cup of vanilla yogurt, but he is a solid quarterback who, after being allowed to watch and learn for three years, now is showing that he is a legitimate top-tier NFL quarterback. There are other positives as well.

But your point, perhaps influenced by a long, cold gray winter, is simply that you enjoyed watching Brett Favre play for the Packers. I’m with you there. I miss him. He provided entertainment that few in the history of the NFL have provided, and as a fan, I loved it.

The Packers NEED a Brett Favre. Thompson is at best an average GM, but in Green Bay that’s not good enough. To survive, the Packers have to have a larger-than-life personality. Lombardi supplied it himself during his time, but then there was nobody as the face of the team until Wolff signed Reggie White and then traded for Favre. Your sentiment — you are bored — is emblematic of the great decline that began when Lombardi left and darn near cost us the team. In my view, stoic, uncommunicative Ted does not have the personality to prosper in Green Bay, and worse, he will not allow anybody else around him to show such personality.

Do we need to rid ourselves of Ted Thompson? I think we do, but obviously it can’t happen now, since the team made the playoffs. I think next year will be key to Thompson’s long-term success. I think that, to a large extent, the Packers benefited by playing a host of truly bad football teams this year, and that their record is deceptive. Clearly there are positives, and I will watch and cheer for the team every time it plays. I just don’t think Thompson is in the right position and I don’t think he is the right choice for the Packers.

by ktenreb on Feb 9, 2010 10:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Do we need to rid ourselves of Ted Thompson? I think we do, but obviously it can’t happen now, since the team made the playoffs.

Blasted success getting in the way of progress!

I just don’t think Thompson is in the right position and I don’t think he is the right choice for the Packers.

Despite the joking above I can understand this position and your point about needing a larger-than-life personality. I don’t completely agree with it, but I understand it. I have no idea where you get the idea that “Aaron Rodgers has the personality of a cup of vanilla yogurt.” Just cause he doesn’t think he is bigger than the team doesn’t equal having no personality. Manning doesn’t have much personality either. Does that mean the Colts can’t win with him?

In my view, stoic, uncommunicative Ted does not have the personality to prosper in Green Bay, and worse, he will not allow anybody else around him to show such personality.

This I don’t get though. I agree that it’s no surprise that TT wasn’t in consideration for taking over the Tonight Show for Conan O’Brien, but he won’t allow anyone else around him to show such personality? What on earth are you talking about here? I disagree with your claim that TT can’t succeed in Green Bay because he isn’t a larger-than-life personality (I don’t remember Ron Wolf being the life of the party either) but I think the claim is backed by solid reasoning. Just a difference of opinion between us. But I’m curious as to what examples you have of TT doing his best to stifle anyone displaying the smallest amount of personality.

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Who is the face of the Packers?

It should be Rodgers, I suppose, but admit it, the guy is bland (and no, Peyton Manning is NOT bland, he plays a sort of dopey-whitebread character in his television commercials, but it’s an act). Favre had the larger-than-life personality, but otherwise on the team right now there is . . . .

I submit that it is by design. Flashy, showy, life-of-the-party types who know their various Indian cuisines just don’t work with Thompson. I’ve never met the guy and so can’t credibly suggest that as a mediocre player he resented players with more personality and talent and now is enjoying his Revenge of the Nerd; to do so would be irresponsible and so I won’t do it.

by ktenreb on Feb 9, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve never met the guy and so can’t credibly suggest that as a mediocre player he resented players with more personality and talent and now is enjoying his Revenge of the Nerd; to do so would be irresponsible and so I won’t do it

Yet thats exactly what you just did. I can do that too. I only met Brett Favre once for less than a minute and shook his hand so I can’t credibly suggest that he is the greatest human being who has ever graced the NFL; to do so would be irresponsible and so I won’t do it.

Let me ask you then, is Tom Brady bland? Do you have to have been in reckless motorcycle accidents and be (falsely) accused of sexual assault to be a larger-than-life personality like Big Ben (and I like the Steelers so that’s not a shot at Ben)?

I understand your argument about Green Bay being a unique market in the NFL that can’t rely o doing things just like everyone else if they want to succeed. The difference is the only way that I think this theory is relevant is regarding the recruitment of free agents from other teams. In my opinion this argument has carried water one time in NFL history, Reggie White signing with Green Bay. I can’t think of another free agent signing with anyone for a reason that wasn’t either a)money or b)immediate chance at a title. A superstar on the free agent market is so extremely rare nowadays. I doubt that TT was thinking about looking to add some Offensive Line depth but immediately had to rule out anyone who had the slightest shred of personality. I really think you’re grasping at straws here. We clearly have different views of TT. The difference between our stances as I see it is that I’m willing to admit some of TT’s flaws and mistakes while you are not willing to admit any of his accomplishments and dismiss them as pure luck where the Packers found a way to succeed in spite of TT.

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 12:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I'm odd

but I like Rodgers’ temperment. I like that about him and Peyton. They may be a bit different, but they are similar. Quiet, great on the field, not controversial in their persoalities, hated by some for reasons beyond me, etc.

I think Rodgers is refreshing. It’s nice to see a guy handle things the way he has through all the hoopla.

by coltsfanawalt on Feb 9, 2010 1:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Who is the bigger than life personality of the Saints? They managed to win the big game…maybe its now their D Coordinator or something. Its not Brees…he’s quiet kind of like Rodgers. We have guys that will take on that role when needed…sure we don’t have a Ray Lewis out there but the young team is still figuring out where they will excel. I think Collins and Matthews both could take on a role like that for the D. You could argue that someone like Driver might be the face of the offense.

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 2:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You can't compare Lombardi and Favre going to different teams

Yes, Vince went to Washington. A team not in Green Bay’s division, a team struggling. He wanted to test his luck. It was nothing over revenge, he was just up for a new challenge. Favre went to New York, I was fine with that. Supposedly, he just wanted to play for the love of the game, so I went along with that. Then, he suddenly forces his way to Minnesota to stick it to Green Bay. That’s simply childish by all means. He thought he could get Green Bay’s upper management to bend over and kiss his butt, when they refused, he sought revenge. Nothing like a 10 year old prima donna running around in Minnesota.

So, if you’re not upset over the Favre issue and his offseason strategy, I can sympathize. You simply do not agree with his approach in building this team. That doesn’t mean you turn your back on the team. You look at coaches like Mike Sherman, and owners like Al Davis and Dan Snyder and you see how the Free Agent Market can kill teams. Sherman couldn’t build our team through the draft, so he tried to do it through free agents. We all saw how that worked out. We had no cap space by the time 2005 came around, we were actually over the cap limit, not allowing us to resign our prized Guards of Wahle and Rivera.

I agree with the approach in building through the draft. However, yes, I would like TT to be more active in Free Agency. A little more, but not a lot. No owner, GM, or Head Coach is perfect though. There is always something we will complain about. You can’t let that interfere with your loyalty though. A true fan sticks with his team through the thick and thin.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 9, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I am totally with you on this…great post.

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ahhhhhh!!!
Its NOT a double standard. The circumstances around both of those were VERY different. First, how it happened…Lombardi didn’t quit and then come back expecting his job back. Second, where he went…Lombardi went to the Redskins, a team we don’t care about. Third, things that followed…Lombardi didn’t try to tell us how we should feel about him leaving, he didn’t compare his current team to his old teams, he didn’t stir up the media all the time. I can come up with a HUGE list of players that went onto other teams that I don’t hold resentment toward. Even Sharper and Longwell I don’t have ill will toward because of how they handled things. Favre was AS two faced as TT was. They both were ignorant asses about the situation. I know you love your Favre but if you can’t see the way he manipulates things, you really need to open your eyes up.

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 2:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

worry much?

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Feb 8, 2010 11:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He DESTROYED the best O-line in football. He hasn’t been able to put a line together since.

People get older dude, and when this happens their play also tends to decline. Our interior guys got old, and wanted to much money so we let them go. Spitz has been solid in his time with us, as well as Sitton. Lang also looks to be a solid guy. All 3 will probably be starters on our line for the next 5-10 years, and all will probably do a pretty good job.

Now he needs to find some OTs. Clifton and Tauscher were both mainstays at the T positions for us, and both of them going down in 2008 with serious knee injuries was devestating. Should TT have had some better replacements behind them? Yeah, probably but you can only carry so many OL and the reality is there isn’t even 32 starting caliber players at the LT and RT in the leauge.

I’ll admit I’m a bit skeptical as to whether or not he can find us two quality OTs but I think that’s mostly because he is always so into taking guys who can play multiple positions. He needs to toss that theory out the window, and take a few 6’ 5"+, 330 lb.+ guys who have good athleticism and long arms. It shouldn’t be that hard to do, especially considering that this year OT class is pretty deep but who knows.

If he does manage to find us two OTs who are at least average, our offense will be at least as good as it was the last 8 weeks of the season, and if he can find two good OTs our offense could be the best in the league.

On a side note, I think it’s funny to hear people complain about the o-lines Favre had from 2005-2007, and the “lack of talent put around him”. Favre never had anything less then a solid o-line with TT as GM, and in reality he probably had a top 5 o-line in front of him in 2007. I think it’s interesting to look at the years we had in 2006 and 2007. Many Favre lovers/ TT haters would have you believe that Favre had a bad o-line in front of him and not good talent around him. I think it’s kind of telling though that when one of our coaches finally convinced Favre to not play like a gunslinger/bonehead we had a great season and made an NFC Championship appearance. I can’t help but think had Favre played like he did in 2007 and 2009 that we would have likely had many more years similar to 2007. Just something to think about I suppose.

by packallday555 on Feb 8, 2010 11:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess the way I look at it is we need to look around the league and see how many ex packers are playing well right now. Longwell is clearly dominating still, I liked him a lot when he was here and was sad to see him go but we couldn’t afford him. Sharper was a similar story PLUS we had a replacement in place for him which has turned out well. Aside from Favre, who else is out there that we should be missing?

I agree with you on his philosophy so far with Olineman though…he needs to draft a few guys that are clear cut OTs. Big guys with long arms that have some speed and athleticism to keep up with the likes of Freeney and Allen and the others. I hope this is the year he does this…we have enough multi-position guys now. Lets get an anchor or two!

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 8:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The loss of Longwell and Sharper still irritate me

Yeah, this is where I have been very critical of TT. Who was this replacement in the waiting from Sharper though? We didn’t draft Nick Collins until 2006 and Atari Bigby didn’t come around until 2007. Since Longwell was let go, we have sucked badly at the Kicker position. When Sharper was let go, well, we had issues. Anybody remember Marquand Manuel?

On the other hand, there has been some good in letting go of some of our prized players. TT had enough of Favre’s attitude and traded him to NY (no need to go into further detail). We had our future in Aaron Rodgers still here. If we kept Favre, then Rodgers would be gone. Yeah, we’d really be asking for TT’s head if that’s what would have happened. Before that, there was Javon Walker. This was a very risky move as well. Walker was whining for more money, when denied, he got his wish in being traded. Who did we draft with the pick we received in the trade for Walker? Greg Jennings. Fair value if you ask me.

TT has struggled with the OL. There’s no question there and this will be a position(s) that will always be reflected on him. Now TT made the right decision in letting Wahle and Rivera go. We were in salary cap trouble, they were getting old, and they didn’t want to play in the zone blocking scheme (which I don’t like by the way). Guards are easier to replace than Tackles though, so TT went with that thought. Unfortunately, it has taken a while for our interior line to get it figured out. Now, we have issues with our Tackle position.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 9, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Walker was whining for more money, when denied, he got his wish in being traded. Who did we draft with the pick we received in the trade for Walker? Greg Jennings. Fair value if you ask me

Especially considering that Walker ended up being a bum and a head case. Win for TT there.

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The system caused Javon Walker

Walker had a good year or two and he wanted to cash in. He was concerned that he should make money while he was able to do so. He wound up shredding his knee and he was never the same afterwards. This is a win for Thompson if you credit him for foreseeing the injury.

by ktenreb on Feb 9, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a win for Thompson

because he didn’t capitulate to a guy who had one good full season and demanded more money. That’s part of the job as a GM, determining what players need to have their contracts redone and which ones just want more money.

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Collins was drafted in the 2005 draft which is the year Sharper left the team.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7227

Bigby also played his first game in the 2005 season after going undrafted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Bigby

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My bad...

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 9, 2010 4:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No problem man…just thought I would point that out.

by TrevorR on Feb 10, 2010 8:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

haha…sorry man your story doesn’t work right now. Lets see how that line looks right now:

Tauscher – Still on the team (didn’t ruin that spot huh?)
Wahle – He’s out of the league…done with football
Flanigan – What? Oh he’s out of football oh I guess he wouldn’t help now
Riviera – Oh man he’s out of football too…weird
Clifton – Oh he was still there too (hmm)

So tell me what he “RUINED”? Looks to me like he cut bait at JUST the right time to save TONS of money pushing those final overpaid years on other teams like the Cowboys and Texans.

What a pathetically whiney post. You tried to spice it up by mentioning all the crappy stuff going on in life outside of football but in the end it was just another whiney “I hate TT” post from you.

You, sorry, are NOT a true Packer fan. You are a fairweather one as you just illustrated. When you don’t like something you run away. You are loyal to a player, not a team. You try to find faults in places where they don’t exist! Keep looking under the rocks…good luck with that!

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 12:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I just don’t understand how some feel he ruined our o-line. Like I said in my response above, he has found 3 quality replacements for Wahle, Flanigan, and Rivera, and seeing as how Tauscher and Clifton were still on the team last year shouldn’t we at least give him a year or two to see what he does to replace them when they are gone?

Like I said above, starmark, like many others simply don’t like TT because he got rid of Favre. After listening to them talk about TT they would have you thinking he is the worst GM in the NFL or something. But if you go and look at our roster, you will see that TT has acquired 4-5 all-pro type guys, and has acquired many other guys who have made good contributions to the team. I don’t like that he never goes after anybody in FA and that he doesn’t make any big trades but beggars can’t be choosers. We have some young stars on offense and defense, particulary offense, and the future looks bright. I get some of you love Favre like I love my Mom or my girlfriend of 4 years but please just try to not let that cloud your judgement as much as it often does.

by packallday555 on Feb 9, 2010 12:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I’ve said that a few times…TT has made mistakes and stupid decisions at times. He’s certainly not a perfect GM but overall I like what he’s doing here. He inherited an old bloated (financially) team and rebuilt them. I suppose that makes him the evil guy becuase he was asked to rebuild the team but what I see is a guy who took us from being almost the oldest team to the youngest team in the league with only 2 poor seasons out of 5. Look how long its taken San Fran to get back to being relevant. They were AMAZING in the 80s and 90s and they haven’t been good since like 95 now. We could be in their shoes, but we aren’t. You can try to complain but damn I think we are pretty fortunate to have such a short turnaround and now we are set up for another long run at being a great team again with a great QB and lots of young quality playmakers

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 7:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly. When TT took over we had one of the oldest teams in the league, and while I might not agree with some of the moves he’s made since taking over he still has done a respectable job in building a young team that looks to have a bright future.

by packallday555 on Feb 9, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard this many times

Yet you are using the argument wrong. I’m not even looking at today. I was pointing at the time. People usually point to how they played right after they left. Injuries and poor play by Wahle and Rivera are the main excuses most fans use as the best reasons for letting them go. That and the money they would have swallowed up by staying on the roster. Yet injuries are unpredictable and continuity with the players around them usually leads to better play. That o-line together was dominant. If they stayed together, then it was likely that they would have stayed dominant for at least a little while longer. That might have been enough window to give the team a chance at a championship. As I said before, the team was WINNING BEFORE Ted Thompson came along. When Thompson broke up that line, the team started losing, bad (worst injuries I’ve ever seen, and Favre got the blame—with no one to block for them, I suppose injuries are more likely to happen). In 2007 they miraculously started winning again, but only because Favre started getting used to the young players and more or less taught them how to play. The HOF QB is a better coach than MM. It might be for that reason TT and MM wanted Favre out of there. Favre was too big for them.

History has shown this to be true. Favre MAKES receivers. He has never had a star receiver, except for Sterling Sharpe. The rest, Favre made. All those supposedly great Green Bay receivers that went on to other teams never had success again in their careers because they no longer had Favre to throw to them. Imagine if Favre had real talent, like let’s say a Marvin Harrison or…a Randy Moss? These receivers in Green Bay now are pretty good, Driver and Jennings. Driver is better of course. Jennings had one okay year. I doubt they will be a dominant force even with a good QB like Aaron Rodgers. That o-line is just too awful. TT doesn’t know how to put one together. He’s had plenty of time to prepare for the aging Tackles and their eventual departure. Don’t expect any great improvement over night. It’s not Thompson’s way.

As for my loyalty as a Packer fan, don’t question me. It’s the NFL I do not like. It’s the staff of the Packers I do not like. The Packers I remain loyal to. I may not wear cheese on my head or guzzle beer like an overweight college dropout, but that does not mean I did not grow up watching these packers. I watched them when they lost. I watched them when they won. I am not running away. I simply don’t care for the corruption in the NFL. I mean what I write. I stand by what I say. I find it hard to care anymore for a system that literally promotes racism in our own nation’s capital. We need to get rid of the Rooney Rule and find a better solution. I know where my loyalties are. I am a Packer fan. More importantly, I love all people. Spewing hatred towards anyone (and I’m glad no one here seems to have done that so far) in the name of sports or any reason is wrong.

There is something wrong with the Packers. There has been for some time. Yet I can forgive. I did not like it when Favre took over Don Majkowski. I disliked all the interceptions he threw early in his career. But when he started to be more accurate, I was won over. The Super Bowl victory was sweet. Winning became expected in Green Bay. Another Sunday, another win. I thought they’d win anyway. Only by three TDs? Must have been an off day.

So if Thompson pulls out the stops and starts to turn things around, then I might start to believe that he might be getting the hang of things. I simply do not believe he will. Yet people can change their behavior; they can learn. While I say I do not care anymore, I haven’t given up hope completely on the Packers staff. It is the NFL as a whole I am more concerned about.

by starmark on Feb 9, 2010 8:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In 2007 they miraculously started winning again, but only because Favre started getting used to the young players and more or less taught them how to play. The HOF QB is a better coach than MM. It might be for that reason TT and MM wanted Favre out of there. Favre was too big for them.

We miraculously started winning again in 2007 because Favre was finally playing under control out there. He wasn’t throwing the ball up into double teams, and trying to force passes in the some of the smallest windows you will ever see like he did for so much of his time here. Yeah, Favre probably knew how to run the offense better then MM just like he knew how to run the Vikings offense better then Childress and Bevell. Anytime you have a veteran guy who has been around for a long period of time that usually is going to be the case. Let’s give MM a little credit though, as he did open up the playbook a bit to Favre with the Big 5 and some other different shotgun formations.

I doubt they will be a dominant force even with a good QB like Aaron Rodgers. That o-line is just too awful. TT doesn’t know how to put one together. He’s had plenty of time to prepare for the aging Tackles and their eventual departure. Don’t expect any great improvement over night. It’s not Thompson’s way.

I think your off here. Jennings is definitely better then Driver, and he and Rodgers will likely be a pretty dominant force for years to come. Another guy to look at is Finley, who is only 22, and played like one of the best TEs in the league the last half of the season.
TT has had forever to get some decent backup OTs but why do it until you have to? Clifton and Tauscher both had some of their best years in 2007, so thinking they can give us 3-4 more years isn’t out of the question. Unfortunately both went down with serious injuries, and obviously those injuries are hard to come back from at their age.

by packallday555 on Feb 9, 2010 10:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Meant to say “so thinking they could give us 3-4 more years wasn’t out of the question.” Sorry about that.

by packallday555 on Feb 9, 2010 10:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That only matters if you ignore the fact that we had no money for them. We offered Rivera a contract (it was under his market value though), he just went for the money…and I don’t blame him. In the end it might have been a bad move!

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think we can compare Jennings to Driver

They are 2 very different WR’s with different roles. DD is our Go to Guy. He’s our target when we need a 1st Down. He’s fearless, has swagger, and has good hands.

Jennings has the speed to stretch the field. He is our big playmaker. Jennings is not who you go to often when you need a 1st Down. Jennings is your target when you are looking for a big play.

They both perform their roles very well, but it is darn near impossible to compare them because they are so different. Different in their roles, but they balance our offense. They are a very big reason why Favre had success in 2007 (along with his decision making) and Rodgers was able to develop.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 9, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If he had drafted OT's before

do you think he would have been accused of trying to run Tauscher and Clifton out of town so that he could get all of the glory for himself? Apparently his ego knows no bounds so who knows?

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 11:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably…

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think some of the TT haters would definitely say that! Hell, anytime he gets rid of any player brought in by Wolf it’s immediately seen as him trying to run Wolf’s guys out of town. The guys were all getting old, and he made some decisions to try and help our team and salary cap situation. Some of these guys need to get real.

by packallday555 on Feb 9, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

2005 was a rough year

Yeah, we struggled in 2005, but you have to look at the team and ask, “Why did we struggle?” Did we struggle because TT screwed the team or did we struggle because Brett Favre threw 29 interceptions or did we struggle because GB was devastated through injuries? Sure, it was nice to have all those winning seasons before hand, but lets face it, the team was declining. On top of that, are you saying you are willing to settle for mediocrity? Don’t you want a chance to be the best team? Winning the big game is what it’s all about, not about consistently making the playoffs. Settling for mediocrity is a Minnesota thing, not a Green Bay thing. Lets keep it at that.

Again, we couldn’t keep Wahle and Rivera due to the salary cap. They were also old and were declining. Keeping them would have only hindered our OL even more. An example: look at Dallas, their OL is turning into a train wreck now because they can’t get it figured out. It’s old, very old.

I can’t argue with the fact that Favre did make his receivers. That’s a true statement. Favre had swagger, I agree. Is that TT’s fault though? Is it TT’s fault Favre’s best receivers since Sterling Sharpe were Antion Freeman and Javon Walker before 2005? Come on man, TT is bringing in solid WR’s to this club, you can’t argue that. So because we didn’t go after Randy Moss we suddenly have a sad crew of WR’s? I don’t think so. Do we need to find a true Go to Guy to replace DD? Most definately, but next years draft can and will address that with 5 WR’s entering the draft at the height of 6’4 or 6’5.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 9, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

2005

2005 was the year to pay for Sherman’s decision to go “all in” for the previous couple of years. The team was in salary cap hell, by Sherman’s design because he thought (rightly, in my view) that his teams were a player or two away from a Super Bowl. It didn’t work and there was no financial flexibility. The team in 2005 sucked primarily because it had no guards (Rivera was too expensive, he couldn’t be re-signed, but Wahle was not a free agent, he was actually cut because he was too expensive), and Favre tried to do too much.

by ktenreb on Feb 9, 2010 11:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

complete agreement with you here

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Couldn’t agree more. So you admit then that losing those guys wasn’t really Thompson’s fault then? What else could he have done???

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 2:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He could have kept Wahle, and he should have brought in legitimate replacements to play guard. As it was, we were stuck with The Legend That Was Adrian Klemm, and some rookie stiff (7th round draft pick) named Will Whittaker. Both were awful.

by ktenreb on Feb 9, 2010 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ya know what though, honestly that 2004 team just wasn’t that good. Sure he could have pushed off what he did for maybe ONE more year and kept the line in tact, but for what? We were coming off a 10-6 season and a wild card loss AT HOME to the VIKINGS! That team was old and getting older. It wasn’t that good of a team. If they were coming off a 13-3 season or something maybe you do that, but it was time to move on. Their replacements were awful though, no denying that one!!!

by TrevorR on Feb 10, 2010 8:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Getting a chance is better than not getting any chance

Mike Sherman gave them a lot of chances, but failed to make the big show.

Okay, so now the Packers have made one post season trip without Favre. Will they do it again? I’m sure they will some day. Will it be soon? Hard to say. That defense can be awful one moment and good the next. They never should have switched to a 3-4.

As for the reasons why they struggled after TT showed up, as you asked, it has multiple answers. All of your answers are partly true probably because of one sad, but simple fact. There was poor offensive line play. TT failed to provide adequate linemen. This lead to poor blocking and a string of injuries like I have never seen. Favre was throwing to people I have never heard of. I might have been able to suit up for the Packers that year. I’m pretty fast (or was when I was younger and didn’t injure every moving part of my body). Although catching a pass from an NFL QB can break fingers I hear. In any case, history has proven that when his back is against the wall, Favre will try to do too much. That is why (with no one in the backfield to hand off to and no one to throw to) Favre threw a million and nine INTs, the most of his career in any one season.

The next year was better because Favre got a little bit more used to McCarthy and the team stayed healthy if I recall. In 2007…well you know the rest.

Yes the cap and the guards, I’ve heard it all before. Mike Sherman put us in a bad spot. Yet the strength of a team is the offensive line. If there are going to be players lost, then the o-line is one area that has to be safe-guarded more than any other. I know the QB position is important and gets all the headlines. The WRs are flashy. The RBs get a lot of glory. But if there is not a good o-line, then all those other players are going to suffer. This is TT’s greatest and most damning failure as a GM. He cannot put an o-line together. Maybe he cannot scout them or evaluate them. Maybe he undervalues them. Whatever the reason, TT and MM nearly got Aaron Rodgers killed this year. If Rodgers went down with a career ending injury, would you all still be in Thompson’s corner? If the Packers lead the league in sacks next year again, and still manage to squeak into the playoffs, will you be happy? I would not be happy that Rodgers is taking such a beating. He has a long career ahead of him. A potential star like him should not have to take such punishment like that. Maybe he holds the ball too long, I don’t know. Perhaps the later part of last season looked better because Rodgers was getting more comfortable and starting to let the ball go.

by starmark on Feb 9, 2010 6:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Again man, I agree with you that TT’s struggles with putting up a quality OL is disturbing. However, it is getting better. It’s taking longer than I would like it too, but that won’t mean I’m going to turn my back on him. Also, Sherman gave us a chance? We were rarely ever predicted to get past the Wild Card Round in our tenure with Sherman? With TT, we managed to get to the NFC Championship. I don’t see how Sherman gave us a better chance. Good teams build through the draft, but it is helpful to add in a key free agent every now and then. Unfortunately for Sherman, he wasn’t able to draft. TT can draft, just unfortunately with him, he doesn’t pull the trigger on free agents. Yes, that bothers me. However, we can’t argue TT’s track record yet. He has done alright in GB so far setting us up for a good future and has a good history with Seattle as well.

As for switching to the 3-4, that was a great decision. Sure, we got blown out a couple times last year. So are you saying we were never blown out with the 4-3? When we had the 4-3, we couldn’t stop the run, and we were constantly complaining because we couldn’t sack the QB, with the exception of Kampman making it once in a while. Now in the 3-4, we know we’ll stop the run, regardless of who we face. Now we continue to complain about not reaching the QB enough. Fair enough. However, a transition to a 3-4 is supposed to take 3 years at the minimum, not a half season. GB did very well in its transition to the 3-4. Sure, it came at the aid of bad teams, but I recall clearly how these bad teams were able to carve up our 4-3 defense ever since Reggie White retired. It was time for a change. That was a good call in which I am in full support of.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 10, 2010 12:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

However, a transition to a 3-4 is supposed to take 3 years at the minimum, not a half season. GB did very well in its transition to the 3-4.

This is something that hasn’t been talked about all that much. I can’t remember how many times I heard people tell me that our defense would be ranked worse then it was last year because prior to this team no team has statistically improved when transitioning to the 3-4 in their first year. The fact that we were able to make a great transition and have one of the best run defenses in the league is pretty impressive. Our defense could be scary 2-3 down the road.

by packallday555 on Feb 10, 2010 7:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sherman was terrible. He didn’t give us ANY chances as far as I am concerned…you can’t argue that he gave us chances and then argue that MM hasn’t. Its just a poor argument. The team was never great under Sherman, just good. Those Sherman lead teams would have failed MISERABLY if not for Favre. He was a terrible GM…poor at managing the cap…poor in the draft…and he wasn’t even a good speaker with the press.

You can’t make excuses about injuries for one year and not the next. How can injuries be an excuse for 2005 but then when its mentioned for 2008 (which had WAY more injuries) its not a valid excuse for the poor season?

I agree Oline is very important to the success of the team…look what this team did without a good Oline…that makes me even more excited. The line is going to improve and so is this team.I also agree that its NOT good to see Rodgers getting hit a lot. TT clearly needs to shift how he evaluates and grades Olineman. We’ve mentioned that in here. He goes after “football players” who can line up at multiple positions…the problem is that while they are okay at a few positions, none of them excel at any of them! That is a SERIOUS problem. Now we’ve got a bunch of guys that can BACK UP many positions, its time to find some true starters. We need to draft the Loadholt type of player that MN did where he’s just a monster who fits the exact mold of a tackle. I won’t argue you with you that TT’s most damning failure is in the Oline. I just disagree that his failure in that one area is reason to disregard him as a GM. If we let him go, teams would be scrambling to grab him in a heartbeat. He’s not a fan friendly guy but he’s turned around the oldest team in the league to the youngest in a few years and kept them competitive and even in the playoffs a few times. Pretty remarkable if you ask me.

by TrevorR on Feb 10, 2010 9:05 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

Good points.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 10, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree about 2008

The defense, especially, was banged up bad. That is why I think it was a mistake to pull the trigger on changing to a 3-4. We took out our best defensive player (Kampman) and are left with essentially the same backfield as last year. Of course Al Harris doesn’t play the press coverage he loves so much. then again, he was hurt this year. That might have helped in the playoff game to have him in there. I do not argue against the success the team has had against the run this year. Yet the competition was terrible as you suggested. Some good teams with good runners had their way with the Packers. The Bengals’ Cedric Benson ran for 141 yards against the Pack. The Rams’ Steven Jackson ran for 117 yards. And they gave up a silly 156 rushing yards to the high-flying Cards in the wild-card game. There were a few other near 100 performances. Adrian Peterson (arguably had a down year with their own o-line troubles, and with everyone focused at stopping him) had 97 yards against the Packers at Lambeau field. These are just the ones that stick out in my mind. There are probably others. I doubt the Packers are going to see the Browns, Seahawks and Bucs all next year. Luckily, they’ll still get to play the Lions and Bears. Imagine if the Packers had a tough schedule? Would they have made the playoffs? I’m not so sure. Playing teams like the Vikings or Cardinals or Saints all year would be almost a guaranteed losing season for the Packers. It remains obvious to me that the NFC elite are a step above the AFC top teams at this point. The Packers would have a shot at the Patriots, Steelers and Colts. But only barely. As we saw this year, the Steelers were a close game and that was one that got away. It also showed some of the flaws in the defense. With as bad as the Steelers are at pass protection, the Steelers still passed for over 470 yards.

Taking out Kampman in the new scheme was a terrible mistake. Would he still have been injured at his normal position as DE? We’ll never know. I wonder if the Packers will keep him or let him go somewhere else.

by starmark on Feb 10, 2010 4:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What about all the defenses failures before 2008 then?

When was the last time Green Bay had a defense ranked in the Top 15? Sure we had an easy schedule, but our defense was ranked #2 overall last time I checked.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 10, 2010 7:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I kind of agree with on not needing to switch to the 3-4, and initially I don’t know how much TT/MM wanted to. I think more then anything, they wanted to run a defense that was aggressive and brought pressure. The first two guys MM interviewed were Gregg Williams and Jim Haslett. Both those guys run 4-3 defenses, and run heavy pressure schemes. He also interviewed Nolan, who runs the 3-4 (Denver this year), and I think there was one other guy he interviewed as well. Obviously all of them declined and we got Capers.

And while it did hamper Kampman a bit, many other players excelled in it. Pickett and Jolly both turned into good DL, and it turned Woodson into the best defensive player in the game. So while I wouldn’t have minded us staying in the 4-3, I think it’s hard to argue against the 3-4 just because we did have some good success in it.

Our run defense did struggle early on against Benson and Jackson but that was the beginning of the year. We also shut down AP, Gore, Barber + co., Rice, and Mendenhall. The run defense was really disappointing against the Cardinals. We had so many blown assignments in both coverage and against the run. It still makes me mad to think about it.

by packallday555 on Feb 10, 2010 7:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure the switch to 3-4 might have been a move that was based on an injury prone year, but I don’t hate the move. I am a big fan of the 3-4 and I like that we are the only team that runs it in the NFC North, I think it will give us a nice advantage in future seasons. Your expectations for this year are unrealistic though.

Honestly the performance I saw from the defense this year exceeded what I thought would happen. As others have mentioned, transitioning to this is a process that takes years, while we struggled at times this year…we also looked really good at times. We dominated the poor teams which is nice to see…struggled against elite which shows we are just a team that is a work in progress. I expect this defense to play better next year with another year in this system.

SJax is an elite back. While we certainly didn’t shut him down, he didn’t go wild on us either…it was just over 4 yds per carry. I try to look a little deeper than the numbers. The Cardinals game was maddening…I still can’t figure THAT one out. Our defense didn’t show up even a little. Next year will be a real test, hopefully the team continues to progress!

I don’t think this season was a failure. The team made major strides and is set up for many good years ahead.

by TrevorR on Feb 10, 2010 9:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps you guys are right

Maybe I despair too quickly. I have been thinking, and this is a game after all. This is nothing to get too emotional over. Thanks for the encouraging words and rational thoughts. Next season could bring a whole new run to glory. Maybe it will end in disappointment again. No matter what happens, the fun should be in watching the team play. It doesn’t matter who is in charge. The players play the game, a representation of the fans. And the fans enjoy the sport. I’ll try not to be all doom and gloom as someone wrote. For now, I think I’ll have hope. Hope, not just for the Packers, but for…lots of things. We are making strides to get better. Maybe the process is slow, but we are hopefully improving. I believe we are improving. change doesn’t happen overnight. If we try to force it faster than it should go, maybe that makes things worse. I must believe that the NFL, and our society as a whole, is evolving into something better. Time is all we need. We’ll get there.

Just like the Packers will eventually get back to the Super Bowl again. Thank you once again. Most of your upbeat attitudes for the Packers has made me feel better.

by starmark on Feb 10, 2010 11:35 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

That might have been enough window to give the team a chance at a championship.

You mean like the chance they had in 2007? I heard TT went into the Giants huddle in OT and tipped off the Giants as to what plays were gonna be called so that the Packers could lose. He just couldn’t handle the idea of having success with Favre on the team.

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 11:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for clarifying on your stance on the team…that is NOT how it came across in your first post. I think if you read it again you’ll see why we all came to the conclusions we did.

The Rooney Rule IS a joke. I think it helped the situation some though but there might be a better system. Ultimately though these are individual organizations that are going to make their own decisions. You can’t say that the league is racist when almost every position is dominated by African Americans. There are many more black coaches now than there was before too so improvements have been made. Its going to take time for them to rise through the ranks too. Its slow process but I think it will come with time!

TT was brought in here to turn an old team into a young team. In 2004, the team was so bloated, we had to cut solid vets just to get under the cap (Santana Dotson, John Thierry and Bernardo Harris). 2005 comes along and we pressed against the cap yet again. We had guys like Sharper, Riveria, Wahle all wanting more money. Rivera was offered a deal but he ended up taking the big bucks with Dallas (including the largest signing bonus ever given to a guard). We didn’t have that kind of money we were BLOATED. Wahle received a HUGE deal with the Panthers too…again how were we supposed to sign him? Where was this money. Someone had to go…either a player gets released or we don’t resign the 30-something year old guards for the twilight of their careers. Again…his purpose for coming here was to churn the roster (make it younger) and get us out of cap hell. He has done that.

I brought up the success of hte players because your argument was implying that if we would have resigned those guys with the money we didn’t have that they would somehow still be playing for us and killing people right now! Its just not a good argument.

Look I don’t love TT. I think he’s cold…has no heart at times. I don’t like him as a person. I think he’s a pretty good GM though. I like most of his decisions though there have been some really poor ones at times but there have been many more good than bad. I don’t see your take on him as being accurate…that’s all.

by TrevorR on Feb 9, 2010 2:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

he was a free agent who signed with the Carolina Panthers

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No

He had two years left on his contract with the Packers. The contract was designed with a large raise in salary, such that either the Packers had to pay a substantial price, or cut him. They cut him because of the salary cap issues (and, I believe, because Thompson undervalues guards) and Wahle then signed with the Panthers as a free agent.

by ktenreb on Feb 9, 2010 5:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah you are right

That said, he was a Pro Bowler the year he signed with the Panthers then was injured and missed a couple of games the next year, was serviceable the following year before being released. But I completely agree that TT undervalues guards, to his detriment.

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 6:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wahle was technically under contract

Yet he wanted a new contract, not necessarily to be released. Supposedly, that was the agreement in his contract which was about to get huge if they did not come to another kind of arrangement. Here is a link to an article I found from packers.com:

http://www.packers.com/news/stories/2005/01/10/2/

You are both right, but are looking at things from a different viewpoint. Wahle did sign as a free agent with the Panthers. (and had his first pro bowl appearance that year if I remember). Yet he was cut by the Packers first because his contract was built in such a way that he either had to be resigned or released, effectively making him a free agent if the two sides could not come to an agreement on a contract.

by starmark on Feb 9, 2010 6:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lol haha

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Feb 9, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

There are a few folks around Colts-ville like this too. Nice to know that everyone gets some nuts to deal with.

The Packers are gonna be just fine. The OL was much improved later in the season. The defense was hurting in the postseason, but with a year of experience in the new system and better luck with injuries (injury luck has to improve, right?), this team is young and poised to take their division for years to come.

by coltsfanawalt on Feb 9, 2010 1:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

do you feel better after getting that off your chest?

ok, now join us back in the world of rational discussion please

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 11:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't blast him because you don't agree

He makes fair points. I think he’s too negative, but his positions are not unreasonable. Back off!

by ktenreb on Feb 9, 2010 11:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't blasting him for having a different opinion

That’s your turf and I won’t tread on it. I was referring to the complaining about the NFL being corrupt and racist. If that’s what he wants to believe that’s fine but I don’t see how that’s relevant to this discussion. I do believe that’s unreasonable so, to quote you, back off!

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No need to get upset

It is likely that I will not be around much longer. I’m not dying or anything. I’ll probably just take a break from watching football. For at least one or more of you, that will be no great loss in the least and probably a welcome one at the most. There is too much greed, and I don’t like what I see. Is this what we want our children to grow up watching? One of my sons likes Brett Favre a lot. I’ve encouraged him to follow the sport, but now I am not sure it is a sport worth following. My family has been Packers fans since we were young. One of my children was born the year the Packers won the Super Bowl. I remember feeding him while watching the playoffs. That was one of my greatest memories, my little son and the Packers in the Super Bowl. Now all my kids are teenagers, with the exception of one child who is 12.

You better believe I am going to be conscious of more than just the sport in sports. The corruption and lies that permeate the NFL is not good for the fans, our children and America. It is relevant to this discussion, because the Packers are part of the system of the NFL in a broad sense. Yet if you want to be specific, I can do that too. The only problem with that is if I be specific, then it will likely start a bigger fight of words than I desire. And I’m already growing tired of this old debate.

by starmark on Feb 9, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand

I think we are having two different discussions. Your points are valid and would make a great fanpost, imo. It just seemed out of left field on this thread. I apologize if I was rude.

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 6:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, you do have a point

I am off topic. I suppose in that sense, I cannot justify my original diatribe and following arguments. I did speak about the o-line, but that was a flimsy excuse to attack Ted Thompson and crew. Like I wrote in an earlier post, I suppose I needed to let off some steam. The superbowl just ended and the Packers were not in it. Favre was not in it. The NFL seems to…ah, but none of that matters right now. Thanks for the apology, but it was unnecessary. We all have a right to our opinions. I hope I have not offended anyone with my ranting. lol! We did get a Colts fan who called me nuts. That’s fun! Fans from other teams come in and take jabs at me. Good times. To be fair, it hurts when your favorite team loses the superbowl. I remember. :)

by starmark on Feb 9, 2010 6:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would encourage you to consider a fanpost for your thoughts sometime

I do think the discussion is worthwhile

Frye is honestly gotta be one of the top 10 3rd Stringers in all of the NFL right now--colbyb

by verno329 on Feb 9, 2010 8:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't.

But whatever.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 9, 2010 9:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I get your sentiment…I just posted about it below actually. The world is FILLED with greed. It might become the downfall of this great country. It IS depressing. Don’t take it out on the NFL though. Its in all the sports and the media, and everywhere really.

by TrevorR on Feb 10, 2010 9:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If you're tired of it (and I am too)...

… then stop bringing it up. Honestly, I won’t mind when Thompson is gone, not because he’s a bad GM, but because it will mean I can stop hearing about how the world is coming to an end from people who don’t like how he does things.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 9, 2010 9:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There is too much greed in the world PERIOD. I think you see it in football (really every sport…I remember Latrell Spreewells “I have to put food on my table” speech) because its so public. But its no different than anything else in the world. We live in the richest country in the world. Our homeless people are probably richer than most people in the world.

Our children these days are amazingly spoiled and they have a sense of entitlement that is sick. Its fed to them all day on TV. I wouldn’t hold that against the NFL though, most kids don’t get at all caught up in the contracts and stuff…they just like to see their players play. When I was a 12 year old (20 years ago) I didn’t give a rats ass about contracts. What did really affect me around that age though was the MLB baseball strike in the early 90s. I was a HUUUUGE baseball fan, the strike happened and my eyes were opened to the greed of the atheletes. I swore off baseball that year and it wasn’t until about 2005 when I met my wife that I started being a baseball fan again. Instill the right morals in your kids…teach them what is right and they will grasp it. Use football to teach them how greed is bad…it will settle in.

by TrevorR on Feb 10, 2010 9:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't let the door hit you...

… seriously, thi i the only kind of NFL fan I really can’t stand; the woe is me, why bother to hope, I guess I’ll just go off and root for Favre variety.

Essentially, he just wrote a 5000 word rationalization for being a frontrunner. He’s wordy, but he doesn’t have the balls to be (or admit) what he is.

It’s ok, man. Go root for Favre, or whomever you like. Trust me when I say, we could give a damn.

Just do me one favor:

Don’t ever come back. Not when Favre retires, or if he struggles next year. Not ever. And if you do, bring an editor with you, because that was a long ass post that didn’t say all that much.

What begins in fear usually ends in folly.

by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 9, 2010 9:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

EXACTLY what I thought as I was reading, especially once Favre came up. What the hell are these people going to do with themselves when Favre finally does retire, for good? Just quit watching football all together because life just won’t be the same without him? And who would they rather have at QB right now? Seems that he’s one of these guys who never gave Rodgers a chance, and never will, even if he does someday win MVP or Super Bowl(s). As a Packer fan FIRST, I’m pretty damn excited about having a young, committed, intelligent QB that has a high ceiling. And I rather enjoy that he’s able to keep his ego in check and is playing here for years to come. Had they kept playing Favre’s retire/unretire game, Rodgers would now be tearing up the league on some other team…and then we would REALLY be in crisis mode.

by bluejazz04 on Feb 10, 2010 10:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

On a side not, I want to see one the 117 people’s explanations as to why Barbre is headed “uphill”.

by packallday555 on Feb 8, 2010 10:50 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

bahahha

nice

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Feb 8, 2010 11:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Most people want to believe the best

If Barbre is all we have, then we want to believe that he is going to be better next year. Even if he is not going to be better, we want to believe he will be better so we believe he will be better. It is human nature to think this way. Politicians play on this all the time. It works better than negative ads. People like to feel good. Don’t rain on their parade. Don’t let truth spoil their fun. People like being lied to. It’s the American way.

by starmark on Feb 9, 2010 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He's only "Uphill" if he plays as a Guard

I’ll be pissed if he remains as our Offensive Tackle. However, Barbre is our strongest and most athletic offensive lineman. He is more ideal to play Guard, even more ideal than TJ Lang. Barbre’s biggest flaw was struggling against speed rushers, which is a less factor to worry about as a Guard.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 9, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Still, I wouldn’t consider that “uphill”. He showed that he could run block a bit, but also showed he has no pass blocking ability whatsoever. Speed rushers were definitely his downfall but he got pushed around quite a bit. Though it seemed to me like this had more to do with bad footwork then natural strength.

by packallday555 on Feb 9, 2010 3:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

By uphill I mean very good potential

If I were to say about the same, I’m basically saying he’s reached his limit. I firmly believe that Barbre will only get better through experience and has not yet reached his full potential yet. Therefore, I feel he is “uphill.”

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 9, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Barbre will not be on the team in 2009

The problem with Barbre is that he has always looked good in practice, in pre-season and in the weight room. He had a go at guard for a few games in 2007, or 2008 (I can’t remember the year right now.) and he couldn’t do then either. I don’t think that there is any way that Campen, Philbin, McCarthy or TT are willing to take another a chance with him.

It’s possible that Barbre will go on to start somewhere else, but not in Green Bay. If we can get something for him, we’ll do it. If not, he will most likely get cut. Depends a bit on how comfortable MM and TT are with playing Giacomini, even in a back-up role. If they judge Giacomini to be a complete flop, then Barbre might make it as a back-up. We’ve got the guards to man the interior, so there’s no need to take a chance on Barbre there.

by MikeDB on Feb 9, 2010 7:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yes and No

I agree we have plenty of guard material. What I doubt is that GB will cut Barbre before 2011. His playing time before this year was almost entirely on special teams with a few plays at guard. This was his first shot at tackle since college.

What I saw was someone who may not have the mental agility to play pro ball. His performance was very uneven. When he was on, he was excellent, when he was off, he was terrible. What the coaches have said is he looses focus. My guess is that he will need the blocking calls to move to a more reflex level. If he has to think too much about what he’s supposed to do, he can’t do it.

If that’s true, they will need another year to find out if he can push all the options down to the instinct level.

by 50 years and Counting on Feb 9, 2010 9:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How many games did Barbre play as a Guard?

Did he get a full season in to fully develop or just a game or 2?

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 10, 2010 12:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

From the Packer Web Site

 2008

  • Played in eight games and inactive for seven, seeing time primarily on special teams.
  • Active but did not play at Seattle (Oct. 12)
  • At Detroit (Sept. 14): Played two series at left guard and saw time on special teams
  • Vs. Atlanta (Oct. 5): Came in midway through the third quarter at left guard when Colledge moved over to left tackle in place of an injured Clifton, where he played the remainder of the game
  • At Chicago (Dec. 22): Played on special teams and returned second-quarter kickoff 17 yards
  • Vs. Detroit (Dec. 28): Entered game at left guard late in the first quarter after center Scott Wells sustained ankle injury and Jason Spitz shifted to center. Suffered an ankle injury of his own in the third quarter and did not return. Contributed to the offense rushing for a season-high 211 yards before leaving the game.

2007

  • Played in seven games and inactive for nine
  • Played in both postseason contests
  • Vs. San Diego (Sept. 23): Saw his first career action, playing on special teams.
  • At Denver (Oct. 29): Resumed his special teams duties and was also inserted at left guard in short-yardage situations (Colledge shifted to right guard).
  • Vs. Minnesota (Nov. 11): Played the final two series of the game at left guard (Colledge shifted to right tackle), after Mark Tauscher left with an ankle injury.
  • Vs. Detroit (Dec. 30): Played the second half at left guard, helping the team rush for 217 yards, including 113 from Brandon Jackson, his first 100-yard rushing performance of the season. On Jackson’s third-quarter, 46-yard run, pushed LB Paris Lenon back several yards to create running room.

by 50 years and Counting on Feb 11, 2010 7:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Time Heals All

Dear Starman,

Are you familiar with Michael Oher’s story? Have you heard how Brees picked NO after an accidental tour of a ghetto there? Were you watching when the Patriots lost the SB after they exhibited such bad sportsmanship during the regular season? Didn’t you find it fitting that after Brady went down the Patriots could still have made the playoffs but didn’t because they didn’t given Cassel more playing time the year before?

This league is one long morality play with the good, the bad, and the ugly held up for all to see. If you want role models for you son, how about Bart Starr, William Henderson, Donald Driver, and Greg Jennings? Each worthy of respect in his own way. The NFL provides a vast range personalities. Your job is to help your son chose the right ones. The NFL is full of good stories if you have the eyes to see them.

by 50 years and Counting on Feb 9, 2010 9:24 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

There are a lot of Prima Donna’s out there that think they are better than anyone else, think they are more valuable than everyone else, and think they are worthy of all the attention as opposed to everyone else. However, there are a lot of good people playing in the NFL or even coaches in the NFL. That’s what the Man of the Year Award is for, isn’t it? How about Drew Brees, he wasn’t even in the Top 5 remaining candidates for that reward and he has done a LOT for the city of New Orleans and charities. Usually it’s the quiet ones that are doing more good because they don’t want the attention. If anyone recalls, Charles Woodson was finally brought up for everything he has done and he has been relatively quiet since signing with Green Bay in 2006.

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Feb 10, 2010 12:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the advice

You are right. There are positive things in the NFL. I should not get so upset and turn my back on the entire sport because I have bad feelings over a disappointing season. The truth is that the Packers turned their season around and made the playoffs. Favre had a good season too (don’t hate me for wishing him well—maybe that’s a lost cause…oh well).

The last thing I need to do is show my children a bitter old man (me) talking bad about everything. So thanks. I need to focus on the positive. That’s what they need. It’s what I need too.

by starmark on Feb 10, 2010 11:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah the justice of it all

I was glad to see Favre have a good year too. I wish we’d beaten the Vikings, but watching the Vikings beat Dallas after we beat Dallas was sweet.

Still, I was glad to see the final pick in the NFC Championship. If there is any justice in the world then the Vikings had to get what we got for the last 10 years. And they did.

Good luck staying positive. I’m sure things will look better come spring. There is no substitute for time.
His Peace.

by 50 years and Counting on Feb 11, 2010 7:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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