2010 vs 2005: Are we in better shape?
by TrevorR on May 10, 2010 11:08 AM CDT
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PrintGreat article from Mike Vandermause in the Press Gazette a couple days ago...his conclusion is that we are a better team NOW than we were when Thompson took over.
He compared the work that Thompson has done since taking over the reigns from Sherman as GM. He doesn't really spend too much time talking about cap condition or things of that nature which is a little bit of a shortfall of his writing. I didn't find too many that I would argue about though.
I might have called Favre/Rodgers SAME instead of better. Both are pro bowl caliber QBs who were playing very good football. Its hard to call Rodgers better at this stage but he is certainly up at the level Favre was playing at. Clearly the offensive line is the one place where Thompson has failed to successfully retool the team...not that this is anything new to us. Just an interesting way to look at it. Here is a link but I'll post his answers after the jump:
Starting offense
Quarterback: Brett Favre lovers will squawk, but the numbers suggest Aaron Rodgers (30 touchdowns, 7 interceptions, 103.2 rating, 4,434 yards) is an upgrade over a 35-year-old Favre during the 2004 season (30 TDs, 17 INTs, 92.4 rating, 4,088 yards). BETTER
Running back: Ahman Green was in his prime and coming off a fifth consecutive 1,000-yard season (1,163 yards, 4.5 average). Ryan Grant’s rushing numbers are similar (1,253, 4.4), but Green was a bigger pass-catching threat (40 receptions compared to Grant’s 25). WORSE
Fullback: There’s not much difference between an aging William Henderson and the John Kuhn-Korey Hall combo at the least consequential starting position. SAME
No. 1 receiver: Javon Walker had one breakout season but flamed out quickly. Consistency gives Greg Jennings the edge. BETTER
No. 2 receiver: It’s only natural that a 29-year-old Donald Driver (84 catches, 1,208 yards) had a little more spring in his step than he does now (70, 1,061), but there isn’t a huge gap. WORSE
Tight end: The difference between Jermichael Finley (55 catches, 676 yards) and Bubba Franks (34, 361) is like night and day. MUCH BETTER
Left tackle: Until rookie first-round draft pick Bryan Bulaga proves otherwise, Chad Clifton remains the starter. But he is older, slower and more injury prone. WORSE
Left guard: Daryn Colledge hasn’t come close to filling Mike Wahle’s shoes. If Wahle was a size 12, Colledge wears a size 9. WORSE
Center: I’ll take my chances with Scott Wells over Grey Ruegamer. BETTER
Right guard: Thompson has been chastised for letting Marco Rivera go in 2005, but it was the right move. I favor a youthful Josh Sitton over a long-in-the-tooth Rivera. BETTER
Right tackle: As with Clifton, it’s admirable that Mark Tauscher is still around, but he’s no longer in his prime. WORSE
Starting defense
Primary pass rusher: This designation will help in comparing the current 3-4 defense to the Packers’ former 4-3 scheme. Right defensive end Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila was a sack machine in his prime but one-dimensional, and thus right outside linebacker Clay Matthews receives the nod. BETTER
Defensive end: Johnny Jolly is versatile and can be a force but has stiff competition against Aaron Kampman entering his best years. WORSE
Nose tackle: Grady Jackson doesn’t reside in the same ZIP code as Ryan Pickett and B.J. Raji. MUCH BETTER
Defensive line: I will take Cullen Jenkins over Cletidus Hunt any day of the week and twice on Sundays. But then, I would take just about anyone over the underachieving Hunt. BETTER
Middle linebacker: Nick Barnett still is the starter after all these years, and despite a potentially devastating knee injury in 2008, can still bring it. SAME
Linebacker: Brad Jones has only half a season of starting experience under his belt, but he looks good compared to Hannibal Navies. BETTER
Linebacker: A.J. Hawk gets criticized for not making enough plays, but his stock soars when matched up against Na’il Diggs. BETTER
Cornerback: Five years and one serious knee injury have taken their toll on Al Harris. He can’t possibly be as good, can he? WORSE
Cornerback: Ahmad Carroll vs. Charles Woodson? That’s like comparing my dandelion-infested back yard to Lambeau Field. MUCH BETTER
Free safety: Take your pick between two Pro Bowl-caliber players in Darren Sharper and Nick Collins. SAME
Strong safety: Atari Bigby has struggled the past two seasons, but he’s a cut above Mark Roman. BETTER
Backup depth
Defense: Five years ago, bench players included R-Kal Truluck on the line, Paris Lenon and Steve Josue at linebacker, and Michael Hawthorne, Joey Thomas, Jason Horton, Chris Johnson and Bhawoh Jue in the secondary. Today, Tramon Williams is vastly better than Hawthorne as the No. 3 cornerback, and quality players like Raji and linebackers Brandon Chillar and Desmond Bishop can’t even crack the starting lineup. BETTER
Offense: The 53-man playoff roster in January 2005 included Sean McHugh and Ben Steele at tight end, Robert Ferguson, Antonio Chatman and Andrae Thurman at receiver, and Steve Morley and Brad Bedell on the line. No wonder the Packers went out with barely a whimper in a first-round postseason loss to the Minnesota Vikings at Lambeau. BETTER
Other areas
Special teams: Other than kicker Ryan Longwell, the Packers’ special teams were mediocre five years ago, yet Thompson has failed to upgrade those units. SAME
Coaching: Mike McCarthy in four seasons has the same winning percentage (38-26, .594) as Mike Sherman in six seasons (57-39, .594). McCarthy gets the edge because he advanced to the NFC title game, while Sherman never got past the divisional round of the playoffs. BETTER
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Calling the 2009 special teams "mediocre" is pretty generous.
“Other than kicker Ryan Longwell, the Packers’ special teams were mediocre five years ago, yet Thompson has failed to upgrade those units. SAME”
Yeah
I don’t recall being quite this horrible at ST in 04-05. (we weren’t good but…I mean c’mon)
by Archibaldcrane on May 10, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Great analysis
I wouldn’t call Wahle and Rivera the guards in 2005. Unfortunately they lived through the Adrian Klemm, Will Whitticker experience in 2005. I’m no fan of Colledge, but I’d put him ahead of that duo. You’ve already got Sitten ahead of Rivera (actually kind of similar guys) so no change there. Luckily they came to their senses and started Scott Wells for 10 games at left guard in 2005. I’d also put Mike Flanagan at center (he started 14 games in 2005) and was the acknowledged starter when healthy. But he was just hanging on at that point and I’d put Wells or Spitz ahead of him.
Overall what makes 2010 much better is that no one is awful. In 2010, all the starters should be starters and could be starters elsewhere. But in 2005 they had Cletidus Hunt (who was released before 2005 started) and Ahmad Carroll in the lineup. Also they’re a lot younger and have depth whereas there was nothing on the bench in 2005 (which is why the team fell apart that year after injuries hit). The team has gotten a lot better over the past 5 years.
Dr. Gothic witha civil approach ;
OFF :
QB- Apples and Oranges . You couldn’t afford both and Aaron was truely ready to spread his wings .You can build a legend in a day and I have said from day one . Give him 3 years and this is his year to blossom . He like Brett is beginning to make his recievers look good . Can he will his O-line to victory against all odds and when the team is in a funk ? Not yet . Slight edge to the silver fox .
RB- Simple Advantage past . They could drive the ball in the cold like no other .
WR Advantage present . Maturity is key to this deep core .
O-line- We Vike fans remember all to well the two O-lineman we sent to DEN to aid in their Bowl runs ! Same curse rubbed of on the Pack. Major advantage past !
K- Longwell was loved in GB and set many records .
DEF :
Over all I thought this team would completely flop with the 3-4 . Major mistake on my part . I felt you had the wrong athletes to pull it off . Big advantage present . Because the future has tremendous potential .
DT – A definate weak spot . Advantage past.
DE- even
LB- More athletic today .
Saf- The loss of vet. leadership compared to the past .
CB- Getting older and not maintaining Pack standards .
P- Even to ugly for a half blind Vike fan to comment on either . Don’t change on my account though ……………
DEF Coach If you can keep him two more years , good luck w/that one .
Ted & Company - That 5/year plan is about up isn’t it . Brett aside these boys need some fire on the seat if you know what I mean ? Past wins.
Fans- You use to hang a coach for half the lame moves of this group . Fire them all . Send the whole sorry Pack to California !!! They make Fudge in California don’t they ? Your women may need to shave those armpits near game day though , I witnessesed those Milwaukee broads and yikes!!!! That was 92 in DEC and I aint been back !!!!
Your review started out looking like you had the ability to be rational and acknowledge actual facts, but as it went on your true colors came through. Another weak post from our newest troll cast off from DN. Did they actually kick you off the site or did you choose to leave when they all stopped listening?
Disagree with your reading
It`s civil with a touch of humour. There is also acknowledgement of the poster`s own self-interest as a Viking fan. Trolls are usually more strident.
I think posts from fans of other teams often give better, more objective assesments of the team than those from Packer fans simply because they don`t have an emotional investment in the players. Their assesments may conflict with those of the home team fans, but they are no less valuable for that.
by uglyfatpimplynerd on May 10, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Please don't feed the trolls.
I’d agree that this wasn’t this guy’s worst comment ever, but a Vikings fan who camps out on a Packer site and makes incendiary statements almost non-stop is, I would say, a troll. …pretty much by definition.
And, as for the content of his comment, everything he said was either obvious or wrong. He added nothing to the discussion.
by Curly Lambeau on May 10, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
But in many cases he didn’t even compare the guys to then, just made general statements about his feelings! Especially on the defensive side:
DT – A definate weak spot . Advantage past.
Saf- The loss of vet. leadership compared to the past .
CB- Getting older and not maintaining Pack standards .
I agree SOME of them do offer unbiased opinions, some of them also can’t make agood comment about a rival though too!!
Fair analysis gothic. I think your underestimating our DL a bit though. Keep in mind we had the #1 ranked run defense last season. The DL was a big, big part of that. Raji and Jenkins were excellent, and in Raji we have some great potential for the future.
by packallday555 on May 10, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I will say this I didn't watch a ton of Packers games last year
but when I realized your defense was ranked up there, I really couldn’t believe it. Looking back at the schedule and the game stats it starts to make more sense but the games I did see it just didn’t seem like your defense was that scary. I would say this is probably because most of the games I did see you all play were against passing teams.
Basing 2004 on 2009 though I would say your in a much better position now. You have a lot of young guys, you have good coaching (Capers is a beast) and honestly I think Rodgers and Favre are a draw between these two years. Only thing Rodgers might be lacking would be the killer instict at the end of the game to force a win. (Of course Brett’s killer instinct sometimes turned suicidal)
Defense I would give the nod to today’s fron’t 7 and state that the back four were better in 2004 although it’s tough because Woodson is such a stud. As it stands this year though I’ll say welcome to the Hell that the Vikes have been in the last 4 years. Great run defenses mean people will try (and suceed) in passing all over you.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Well, our defense was a confusing one this year to say the least. Too start, we always looked pretty good against mediocore-poor teams. (Like we’d expect. Tampa Bay being the exception.)
When we played good teams, for the most part, it was a different story. Our run defense typically did very well against better teams and better Rb’s. We held AP to 55 yards @ the Dome, and held him just under 90 yards @ Lambeau. We also did a great job shutting down the Cowboys 3 headed monster, Frank Gore, and Ray Rice. The run defense aside from the first 3 weeks of the season and unforunately, our last game against the Cardinals.
The passing defense was just a whole different story haha. As you know, Favre torched us twice. Big Ben torched us, and Warner did in the playoffs. Too me, there were a couple of reasons we struggled so much against the pass. Firstly, Harris going down absolutely killed us. We already had 2 of our other Cb’s on injured reserve, and after he went down, our players who were really only there in case of emergency got thrown to the wolves as our nickel and dime backs. The second reason is I don’t think we did a very good job of making in game adjustmens.
It seemed like we were always getting torched by the same formations and sets. I personally think a lot of this had to do with Caper’s game planning for teams with elite Qb’s. He seemed to always just want to drop 7-8 into coverage and hope for the Qb to make a mistake. Seems like a fine idea, just not when you can’t get a good pass rush with 3-4 guys.
Looking back at things, it’s actually kind of ironic how our defense performed this past season. In 2008 we couldn’t stop the run to save our lives. Our secondary making plays and forcing TO’s kept our defense from being on the same level as teams like the Lions or Chiefs. Then this season our run defense was really strong, and our pass defense struggled. I
My hope is that with another offseason of experience in the new system, and getting some guys back from injury at Cb we’ll be better against the pass. If we can do this I think Caper’s will feel a little more comfortable with bringing more pressure against teams with elite Qb’s.
by packallday555 on May 10, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Lol, and here’s to hoping the Favre retires and the Wall gets suspended for 4 games :).
by packallday555 on May 10, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know that I do want Bertt to retire;
rather, I’d prefer to see Rodgers, with the help of Mathews, Jones and the rest of our defensive playmakers, get some much due payback.
-
The glass is more than half-full.
That’d be great but the Vikings with Jackson or Sage are a much easier team to face. Just slow down AP like we managed to do twice last year, and we’ll basically have the games won.
by packallday555 on May 11, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm surprised you think any part of our 04' defense was better
I certainly have not forgotten our 27-32nd ranked defenses in the Sherman years. The front 7 sucked, and the secondary was garbage. The only green light was Darren Sharper getting interceptions. Mike McKenzie was kind of a hit or miss too, much like Sharper. Al Harris wasn’t that good at the time. Roman was ok, nothing spectacular. Our secondary now, when healthy, are quite frankly really good. That’s the key word though, “healthy.” When they are healthy, they are all ball hawks. They know how to shut down the opposing team’s offense. Last year, our injuries caught up against the pass heavy spread offenses of the NFL (MN, AZ, Pitts). So in regards to the defense, everything we have now is better than what we had in 2004.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Better
Yeah I thought that the comparison was pretty good work as well… Rodgers might end up better but the big difference is age!! At 27 Rodgers is just now entering his prime, whereas #4 was 35 at the time and already in his annual retirement talk drama. It actually makes the case for Rodgers reallly strong!
If you consider the overall talent at WR, I would say the recieving corps is Much better, even w/ Driver in decline.
OL has to go back to the ’04 version, but they were all nearing the end, w/ the exception of Clifton and Tauscher who were in their prime. Now that the OL looks to be in much better shape in ’10 that will change dramatically very soon!
Not taking into account the salary cap situation now as opposed to in ’04 is a gross oversite!!! THat was a major problem back in ’04…
by Strohman on May 10, 2010 1:59 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with everything but the line. Now looking long term, I like where we are at now but in actual production we are far from where the line was in 2004. I think that was the comparison. he didn’t really take into account LT potential, age or any of those factors, just production on the field. I agree with you and I think that is the flaw of his article is not taking other factors into account!
Legend and 'benefit of the doubt'
I have no intention of getting into a test of wills, such as it is, but people are giving the “Legendar” Favre the benefit of the doubt in comparison to Rodgers. Favre was not good at all from 02’ to 07’; and even 07’ was an anomoly with truly average to terrible play from the latter half of November onward. Rodgers is superior in every meaningful regular season category that measures moving the football down the field.
Sorry, but people romanticise the mid 90’s Favre by calling this a push and love the legend, not the guy that equaled his TD total and INT’s during the mid 2000’s. it’s really not a push at all.
I wouldn't say Favre was not good, he certainly carried our team to the playoffs each year from 02-07'
but he just couldn’t do anything more than that, which is what counts. Everything that happens in the Regular Season means absolutely nothing once the Playoffs start. Who wins the division, is irrelevant. Who has the better record, is irrelevant. Who has the best stats, are irrelevant. Who win the Superbowl is relevant. Favre did it ONE time with the help of the #1 ranked offense, defense, and special teams….the only team ever able to achieve that feat.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Except for 05 and 06
Where he was playing at a Rex Grossman level. And yes, 97 Superbowl removed, he has far more memorable big moment chokes than he does clutch moments.
by Charlie Kelly on May 11, 2010 5:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was pretty satisfied with this analysis when I read it too. Couple of bones to pick with it…
Comparing Kampman to Jolly is a bit unfair. The author acknowledged that defensive comparisons were apples to oranges because of the scheme change, and nowhere is that more true that at DE. There’s just no equivalent at this spot. The 3-4 doesn’t really put any true DEs on the field. They’re all DTs. …which is why we were so good against the run but got practically no pass rush from the D-line. Kampman was responsible for both. Jolly really isn’t. He’s there to stop the run, and then, if he gets a little pass rush too, well, that’s gravy.
I’d also say that Collins is better than Sharper. Collins can tackle. Sharper made some big plays, but only because he would gamble to make up for his lack of speed. Collins, on the other hand, is occasionally spectacular but almost always solid. In keeping with his home-run-hitter mentality, Sharper often struck out. …badly.
Other than that, though, I thought the article was pretty good. I laughed out loud when I saw that Ahmad Carroll was being compared to Charles Woodson. The dandelion-lawn to Lambeau analogy was okay, but I was a bit let down just because that’s about the best set-up for a joke I can imagine.
Anybody have better ideas for what an analogous comparison would be? I’d go with this: “Ahmad Carroll to Charles Woodson: choosing between these two is like going into a restaurant and seeing that you have to choose between their two specials for the day – filet mignon or a bucket of vomit.”
Good question.
Sorry, yeah. I should’ve mentioned that it’s served with a bile demi-glaze. It comes with your choice of soup or salad (and I’ll just say that both have corn in them). And, for dessert… mint urinal cake a la mode.
by Curly Lambeau on May 10, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Completely agree with you on Sharper vs. Collins
I was watching some NFL Films season recaps of our teams in the early 2000’s when Sharper was in his prime and I was reminded for basically a perennial pro bowler how many times he got burned and badly.
As for Collins, I will always say he’s a poor man’s Ed Reed.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
Absolutely
Sharper is pretty notorious for jumping throws. He got burnt just as often as it worked.
Selgy
If Dr.Gothic is a troll than Achme Packing company must be my new bridge !!!!!
Can you afford the toll ???
in order
for collins to take the next step into the elite cateaorgory(sp) he must step up in big time games. he virtually disappeared in the 2 viking games and pitt and finally the playoff loss to the cardinals. the truly great players make plays in the biggest games. collins has fallen short so far, but i think with another year in this system he will improve in those “big game” situations.
by hermitcrab on May 10, 2010 7:24 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Ditto
Collins has been knocking on the door for a while now. I agree that he doesn’t make the big play in the big game.
by PackApologist on May 10, 2010 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
hard to compare teams
from 5 years ago. go back 10 years, does it really matter. look at the win/loss record during eras or changing of the gaurd. nobody cares about regular season stats——-that’s for fantasy football managers. give me some post season success, that’s where you become a legend.
i think thompson has done a fair job since taking over for sherman————not the best at any stretch and far from the worse. he made the right call by replacing favre with rodgers. we are set at qb for 25 years(favre/rodgers) not too many organizations can do that. i just wish he would add a couple free agents to take us over the hump one of these years like wolf did.
maybe i’m being impatient, but i feel going into year 6 is enough time to build a consistent winning football team.
consistent winner
Well take the 13-3 in 07 and the 11-5 last year, and that rings of a winner! THe "08 season was bound to take a step back considering moving away from #4 and the injuries to the D sank any chance for a successful season! I would venture to say that the Packers are a winning football team right now… Most think they are a legitimate SB contender and one of the 5 or 6 best teams in the NFL… Don’t know what you want or expect, but I believe they will win the NFC North and go at least as far as the coference championship game, w/ a chance to advance to the SB!!
only time will tell
you actually have to play the games in the nfl on sundays to prove the above points.
right now you’re only as good as the last game you played———no such thing as a paper champion and all the “experts” are always right. i will reserve judgement until the packers actually turn in 2 winning seasons in a row, but i would agree that this year they should win the north—-“on paper” they should be the favorites to win the north, but paper is only good for a couple things——-writing on and wiping your @$$……….
this was a good article
rec
RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010
an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry
#1 CB vs #2 CB
At this point Woodson is our #1 CB, and I’d take him over Al Harris from five years ago. Then I’d take present day Harris over Carrol. For that matter, I’d take a box of rocks over Carrol, as the rocks probably wouldn’t get flagged as often.
by ACDC84 on May 10, 2010 8:42 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Didn't they used to make Carroll wear oven mits during practice so he couldn't hold anyone?
by Charlie Kelly on May 11, 2010 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It was a good article that brings out important points .
I see hermie’s dilema . He doesn’t want to critcize a rookie that he likes . I hope my honesty about the maturation of many of your athletes helped . As I slept on this one I came to the conclusion that like the Vikes 98’ team that was crammed full of Probowlers and star , so was your 05’ team . This 10’ team truely doesn’t lack talent or athletes . Yet the star quality guys you know house hold names , and Probowlers are signifantly less in #‘s IMO .
FOX in my region who covered mainly Bear’s games around 85’ , GB around 05’ and now my Vikes in 09’ . That is probably a big part in some of my opinions .
star power
That is truly on of the most myopic takes I have EVER read!!! Pro Bowlers don’t win NFL championships!!! TEAM players win championships!!! You have all your Pro Bowl players, but when was the last time you won a championship??? LMAO
I'm fairly certain that FOX didn't broadcast NFL in '85.
;-)
When I retire, I want to have Ted Thompson's job!
Whe was the last time you won a playoff game ?
Looking from the outside in . If you had the #1 DEF and coculdn’t win a playoff game that means your OFF sux .Right ????
Two years ago Aaron went 6-10 . Last year with your franchises worst )-line in history found 4 more wins . Only a moron would discredit a team by claiming back to back conference championships as nothiing . Are you ready for your team to go back into their 25/yr slump ……… Hypocrite !!!! Show some sign of dignity and integrity for the game . Since you can’t show it for your team . I openly stated on my Viking sight that others need to be men about it .5 turnovers is 5 turnovers ! I said it because I’m a moron that respects the game Ms. Stro . Just because you wear the pants in your house doesn’t mean you don’t need to change your tampon once in a while and let your husband back on his boy site !!!!!!!!!
You had a typo there
You won back to back division titles, not conference titles. Which means, your Vikings still can’t win the games that actually matter. Cheers!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Isn't it so easy...
…this guy is just tossing our softballs every time he posts!
When I retire, I want to have Ted Thompson's job!
Two years ago Aaron went 6-10 . Last year with your franchises worst )-line in history found 4 more wins .
Not a very good point..Aaron won 4 less games in 2008 despite us having a top 5 ranked offense..Then, when we got 5, yes I said 5 starters back from injuries on defense we won 5 more games. Just a coincidence? I think not.
How can you talk about winning championships!? The Vikings couldn’t even win one with Favre playing at an extremely high level! You finally had an elite Qb to compliment the 2nd best Rb in football and you guys STILL didn’t get it done. How do you think things will turn out when T-Jack takes over?
by packallday555 on May 12, 2010 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You don't understand
trust me here Pack TJ jas learned from Favre now, so he’ll be able to blast out 90 yard throws by bending over and crapping the football out of his butt. Plus instead of running around the back field like a chicken with his head cut off he’ll just stand there. And when people go to sack him, he’ll just stiff arm them and then pass the ball.
Sounds improbable? Yeah I agree, just wish I could beat it into Chilly’s head.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Yeah I've had a hard time understanding this line of thought recently
The whole “learning from a HOF QB” argument that has been going on is starting to confuse me when I think of how hard it is for teams to replace HOF QB’s. I don’t know if watching Dan Marino helped out Jay Fielder. I don’t know what Troy Aikman did for whoever filled in for him either.
When it takes teams 10 years or more to replace an elite QB, I don’t think just watching one of these guys works is the answer. If it were that simple then the Dolphins would of figured its QB situation 20 years ago, Dallas wouldn’t have put all its hope in Romo, etc.
by PackApologist on May 12, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
The problem is you can't learn from Favre
Favre does things QB’s shouldn’t do. That’s where his magic comes from. He has terrible fundamentals and makes many illadvised throws. The thing is, it works for Favre in the Regular Season, but does not work for most if not all other QB’s. That is the fine line between Rodgers and Favre. They are 2 very different QB’s. If there’s anything you can take from Favre, it’s playing without fear and having fun. That is the mystique of Brett Favre and what seperates Favre from the rest of the QB’s. If TJ is going to develop, he’ll need to do it on his own. Favre won’t do much for him. Just as he publicly stated he refused to help Aaron Rodgers. Favre is not a coach, he’s not a mentor. He’s simply a QB.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
You think Rodgers did not learn anything from Favre?
In some situations he learned what not to do but he did learn a lot from the guy. A person with that much passion for the game and for winning does not need to teach anything. Sit back with a clip board and watch. On and off the field Rodgers learned a lot. You may not learn a lot about fundamentals but theres so much more to being a NFL QB than that and theres plenty of people who can teach fundamentals better than Favre.
I will say this TJ is learning how to better read defenses
and he does this just by watching film with Favre. He sits and listens as Favre disects what the defense is doing and then talks about what needs to be done to get around it. You don’t need to be a teacher to teach.
Actually, with all this learning TJ is doing I was thinking it might be best for you guys to trade up Rodgers… Everyone knows he’s going to be on a decline now that he doesn’t have Favre propping him up. So I figure we give you TJ for lets see Rodgers of course and maybe Clay mathews.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Actually, with all this learning TJ is doing I was thinking it might be best for you guys to trade up Rodgers… Everyone knows he’s going to be on a decline now that he doesn’t have Favre propping him up. So I figure we give you TJ for lets see Rodgers of course and maybe Clay mathews.
Haha you wish!
Seriously though, I’m sure there are some things that Jackson has learned from Favre. Learning is one thing though compared to actually going out there and applying that knowledge. He’ll probably be better at reading defenses and making adjustments but for me that still doesn’t take away his inaccuracy and lack of awareness.
I actually think Sage could potentially be alright for you guys. He had some talented guys in Houston but his team still wasn’t very good. He was playing from behind quite a bit, and obviously that can lead to making some decisions that under different circumstances you might not make. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how things turn out.
by packallday555 on May 13, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
actually I don't think it
It’s pretty well documented.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Its also been documented that hes not in all film sections.
Like with the jets when the team said he was distant because rather than watching film with and working out with them he would watch film in an office by himself or with coaches. When asked about teaching Rodgers he said its not his job to teach him anything and he wasn’t going to do it so I find it hard to believe that he’s teaching these guys how to watch film! Do they watch film during training camp? Because Favre won’t be there either. Pretty well documented? By who?
I’m sure they all watch tape together from week to week..Favre may not be voluntarily sitting down with Jackson and Sage but I doubt he just skipped watching film last year (although I could see Chilly letting him get away with that haha :).).
As for it being documented, I think there was an article or something about it. I remember some people over on DN talking about this, and they either had a picture or article for support.
by packallday555 on May 14, 2010 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions
There were a couple of articles talking to Sage and TJ
In them they talked about what the thought of playing with Favre. They basically said the usual he’s so great!!! but when it got to brass tacks most of what it came down to was watching him in the games, watching him disect tape, and listening as he was on the field making adjustments.
So no, Favre isn’t going out of his way to teach them, but then I wouldn’t expect him to.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Yeah, i was just talking in reference to fundamentals, decisions, and all that
as for gamefilm, yeah, if Favre is open to dissecting it. or at least if the backup QB pays close attention to the film, he can catch on.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Yeah I don’t think he meant that you can’t learn anything but I guess it sounded that way. I am sure there are things he could learn that would help him (drive to succeed, pump fakes, handoffs (and fakes), etc. I just think a lot of what he does is intangibles which are not really learned. I don’t doubt that TJ and Sage both picked up some things watching him though.
HOnestly, Favre isn’t a guy you want your QB learning from! He’s all instinct…either you have it or you don’t! He does do some things really well (like his pump fakes and fake handoffs which are legendary) but a lot of what he does is really poor form and bad technique which makes his success even more amazing.
I remember thinking that I hoped Rodgers didn’t watch him TOO closely cause Favre does a lot of things that are just bad for 99.8% of QBs. He’s truely a unique success story. That is why you won’t see him as a QB coach ever…
I think the main problem is TJ
You can paint him gold and he still won’t be a good QB.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Were the young team with our best ball infront of us!
Ours super bowl window is wide open yours is closing fast.
'07
We won a playoff game in ‘07… And were in the conference championship that same year… Who cares about getting to a conference championship though?!! You can take your nice little consolation prize… Of course your used to those!!! We don’t settle for that, which is part of the reason why #4 was traded… He has had nothing but playoff meltdowns in the last decade or so… He actually fits your team just right, since he has done nothing but lose big playoff games in the past decade!
Your viqueen site is crap!!! been there, done that!
In all reality most teams that make it to the play offs won't make it to the superbowl.
So it’s going to happen, and yes I understand that we havn’t won the big dance. I’m a little bummed about it too. Since I’m on your site I’ll refrain from the midol comments I would usually post :D and just say it will be interesting playing you this year.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
If you were a troll I'd be talking smack right now
Since you’re not though, I can honestly say I and i know the rest of us Packer fans know what you’re going through. The NFC Championship game against the NYG killed us. The following year our defense was raped with injuries. It’s nice to know we are on the right track again. You may be experiencing this hangover for a while though, FYI. I’m sure it’ll be worse then your defeat against Atlanta in 1998.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
You can't get to the real prize without this minor detail .
Stro Brett has you so bitter !!! I hope the others on this site hasn’t sold out on the Pack like you …………I’m Jared rounding the edge today and you are Aaron stepping out of the endzone . I preferred you when you were hot headed and wimpy . But this sellout thing is disheartening . I offer you the same offer I gave your mom . The real men are over at the Daily . And you won’t need a beer to say yes .
Bitter?
No I’m not bitter!! I look at facts!!! #4 is 4-11 in the playoffs post-Holmgren!!! LMAO
He blew chances vs the iggles, viqueens, falcons, rams and a few other teams!!! He has been in 3 NFC championships since Holmgren left. He has LOST them all!!!
DailyNorseman is crap!!! Been there done that… The block anyone that isn’t a viqeens fan!!! I got blocked 2 yrs ago for saying that I thought Rodgers was going to be better than T-Jack!!!
That's how pathetic they are at DN
The fricking Lions site is more exciting then it is at DN!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
The thing I find the MOST annoying is that if you go to the site and they know you are a fan of another team, they call you troll no matter what you say. YOu can complement their team and they call you a troll. A lot of guys with a lot of pent up sexual aggression I think.
Um yes....
But I’ve been reading Big Ben’s book on women and I think I’ll be less pent up soon! :)
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
by Grime on May 12, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And I'll be honest
I did have a brief conversation at DN about 2 weeks ago. First conversation in what seems like 5-6 months. That was just a couple questions about Ray Edwards. Hmmm. I didn’t notice any trolling on their site. Why do we get all the trolls and why are all the trolls Viking fans? No, not all are trolls (nod to Grime).
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I’ve almost given up on going there. I try to discuss the Vikings because I live in their state and hell I know a LOT about the team. Yet the second anything is anything less than praising of the team (even if I am praising them sometiems) I am called a troll. Most of the guys seem to not really get what the word…I am thinking of one guy in particular too (one who has a little too much love for a former GB QB).
Yeah… If you say anything that isn’t a positive spin on the viqueens they don’t allow you to keep posting! A bunch of pathetic losers is all they are… Guess thats why they follow the queens like they do. They don’t care if you have good takes or analysis. Personally, I think Brandon gives the queen trolls too much leeway. I never said anything like the queen fans who visit here!
So are you trying to tell us you'll leaving here?
Because to be honest, you should go back.
by Charlie Kelly on May 12, 2010 6:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Gonzo is haman and an ass......Stro
Jboot ,you are correct sir …..most bloggers pander to Gonzo . I called a vike fan snivelling on APC the other day . But they show better all around respect for each other and visiters. I welcome your banter as it is refreshing . Like being in a high school locker room again .
Trev…….isn’t that what you called me ? Or Stroo was it you ? LOL
Stroo I over look their short comings because they have well researched info and will share any developments or question . I asked when supp picks were decided and bam !!
Instant answers were share wither I was a Vike fan or any other …I’m just keepin’ it real fellas !!!!!!!
Yeah I did because you are showing “troll-like” signs all over. Its one thing to come in and add to the discussion. Its another to hijack threads, spray unthruths everywhere, and be an ass to both the blog and the people on the blog. You ARE a troll. Its not that you say something we don’t like about the team its HOW you do it that makes YOU a troll (you and dsludo). The others that come by aren’t trolls…just you two, so far at least.
Ok GP I have no idea what your problem is.
You reffered to me as a sniveller again. For serious sake the best parts of you ran down your Mom’s leg. I have no idea why you would even say that except when I’m on this board I try to be respectful to the fact that I am on another teams board and I’m usually trying to either figure something out or learn something new. Civility does not make one a suck up. Disagreeing does not make one a troll. Attitude is what does it.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
by Grime on May 12, 2010 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
suckup I'm confused are you asking for an apology???
Trevor. You haven’t explained how Derrick Brooks is a 3-4 LB . That wasn’t a question . Don’t respond to any of my comments since you have no cred in my eyes until you can own that statement . Most Pack fans won’t admit they make up 90% of their crap . We need a green and purple site were Gonzo can push ass clowns like you around just because you make up stuff and have no cred. while good info can still be obtained aside from fanatical bias . Guys like Lifelongvike,medicineball,Packallday555,and Gonzo present . Don’t get me wrong good topics are presented on this site . The only thing taking over your site is your comrades fanatical negativity . Packad555 is bright enough to read between the lines . IMO thatis why we exist in this space . Everyday I respect his opinions more and more . Does that mean I should let up on him ? No . And will we both get a better perspective on the enemy ? Just maybe . Own your opinions guy because I have visited less than a week and already you are found to be a fraud . Your not worth Bear’s spit !!!!!! And that’s a fact . Don’t grow up . Just research a little more ok . You look like Aaron Rodgers crying in the pocket in the last two minutes of every North game ……….
Brooks
I don’t have any facts on this, but I would imagine that Brooks would be an ILB in a 3-4. He played OLB in that Tampa 2 system, so I would imagine if he still had something left in his tank that’s where he would fit in.
By the by, I still think it’s funny that you accuse us of making up facts when you claimed that Rodgers was an alternate to the Pro Bowl this past year. Hilarious. But hey, that’s only one thing and we all fudge one or two facts around here right?
by PackApologist on May 13, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
CAN. YOU, READ?
Where did I say Brooks was a 3-4 backer? Go back and actually read it. I stated that I was listing the 2009 Pro Bowl outside linebackers. You assumed I was listing 3-4 backers because you are not too intelligent but that doesn’t change the fact that I didn’t say it. You still can’t admit that you were wrong. YOu trying to say my FACTS are wrong doesn’t make your made up BS true. You are quite laughable, you don’t realize we are all laughing at you…including the Viking fans that have been coming out here.
By the way, what is your obsession with Gonzo. We don’t care about him. He’s just another dude on a computer yet you act like he’s your dad or maybe even your god.
You don’t like me because I continue to prove you wrong. Thats fine, I don’t need your affirmation buddy. I don’t need anyone’s on here but especially not yours. You don’t have credibility on here or on DN so find new board. I believe one of your Viking compadres suggested ESPN.
Yea, your barely legible posts would fit right in over at ESPN
Hell, make enough posts and they might make you a job offer. You couldn’t be any worse than Bill Simmons.
by Charlie Kelly on May 13, 2010 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Honestly man
Your a bit sketchy. In one post you talk about Gonzo as if he’s a pariah telling everyone that he runs a crappy site, then you go out and try and craddle the balls? I’m not sure where that’s coming from. You used to think I was the bomb until I started in on your writing style. The only reason I did that is because you were actually making decent points at the time and people were having a hard time figuring out what you were saying.
Personally, your writing style lends me to believe your a very confused person. If you’d like I would suggest you write out your responses in word, then check them out and pull them over to the site.
By the way, most everything you write is an opinion, I also write a lot of opinions however, I don’t tell people they are facts. Good luck!
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
by Grime on May 14, 2010 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
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