Who Is The Most Endangered Packers Offensive Lineman?
by Brandon on May 6, 2010 8:01 AM CDT
in Green Bay Packers Analysis
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PrintMike Vandermause has a good article online about the Green Bay Packers who should be expecting to fight for their roster spot come training camp based on who the Packers selected in the April draft. Assuming both 1st round pick LT Bryan Bulaga and 5th round OL Marshall Newhouse make the roster, who are the most likely offensive lineman to be released during training camp?
My first thought was someone who probably comes easily to mind (Allen Barbre!!!) but actually I didn't think it was fair to pick on him when there were a couple other lineman (G Evan Dietrich-Smith and RT Breno Giacomini) who couldn't beat out him for the starting spot during the preseason. As bad as Barbre was at right tackle, how bad must have those two players been? Maybe Dietrich-Smith was never given a chance since he played exclusively at center and guard. And that leads to the point that where the coaches decide they play will make a big difference.
Newhouse played left tackle in college but he played guard at the rookie camp. It's still possible he plays almost exclusively at another position like right tackle when the OTAs start on May 17. Who exactly is Newhouse competing against? Is it one of the interior lineman or one of the tackles?
Bulaga might not battle any lineman for a roster spot. Maybe he'll only play at left tackle and they'll carry one extra o-lineman in 2010 so they still have the same depth across the entire line.
I don't think we'll start to see who's really in trouble until the OTAs start later this month. If I'm wrong, then who is the most endangered offensive lineman going into next season?
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General lineup (starter, backup): LT Clifton, Bulaga; LG Spitz/Colledge; C Wells, Spitz/Dietrich-Smith; RG Sitton, Newhouse; RT Tauscher, Lang, Barbre/Giacomini.
Barring a trade of Colledge or Spitz, I’d say both Barbre and Giacomini are in fairly deep trouble. Neither one of them figures in at left guard, and given TJ Lang’s status as utility lineman last year I think he’s likely to get the nod ahead of both as the backup RT. Unless one or the other stands out in camp and preseason (and Giacomini is the more likely, IMO) they’re both looking at being Moll-ed or cut outright.
Breno and Barbre
I think Dietrich Smith claws his way on the team once again. We don’t know if Spitz is going to be healthy and with the extra beef that opposing teams have added on the insides, the Pack will want another big tough guy at Center of Guard.
Reading this article actually made me feel good!
To many O linemen is a good problem. A Rod has to be smiling.
Too many GOOD O linemen is a good problem.
It goes without saying what too many bad O linemen are…
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on May 6, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Barbre needs to be an OG
The experiment with him being a RT failed miserably and it didn’t look like he was improving. I am a believer that Barbre can and will succeed at the OG position. I think Wells offers good depth and trade bait as well. I’m not comfortable with Wells playing Center because he does get pushed back quite often against the best DT’s in the league. He is a veteran though and is decent. I’d like to keep Lang at OG from here on out. However, I don’t want Lang to be starting this year. I would prefer that he adds on some weight and gets more reps in at the OG position as a backup this year. Next year, perhaps he’ll get his chance to be a starter. Heck, give him a chance in Preseason to compete for the starting role. I’d like to have Colledge, Barbre, and Lang compete for the starting role at LG. Newhouse needs to find his place yet and is strictly here for depth at this point.
LT- Clifton, Bulaga
LG- Colledge/Barbre/Lang
C- Spitz, Wells
RG- Sitton, (primary backup to LG)
RT- Tauscher, Bulaga
I left Breno and Dietrich-Smith out, so I’m assuming they are the ones that don’t make the roster after Preseason.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I like this analysis
I agree that Wells is a backup — he’s worthy of a roster spot but he’s not a starter. Lang, to me, is a guard and th3e team did him no favors last year by bouncing him all over the line. Spitz is the best center on the team but I would look at Barbre or Lang as the starter at LG. Colledge just doesn’t have it. You forgot Newhouse, so I would put him in the mix at guard (I haven’t seen him enough to know whether he can play tackle).
I disagree with Bulaga serving as backup at both tackle spots. I think we need to make the commitment ot him as a LT, and to put him there. If Tuascher goes down, then we’d have to look at Lang or possibly Newhouse at RT.
I'm a Wells homer
He’s never been a great player, but he rarely makes mistakes and always appears to be covering his assignment. And the line seems to play better with him. It seemed like there were more missed blocking assignments with Spitz at center than Wells (I’ve got no stats to back me up so major apologies to Jason Spitz if I’m wrong). As long as his back holds up, Wells should be starting somewhere in the NFL. There are a few teams that could really use a decent veteran center who always does his job right.
Oops, I did forget about Newhouse
I expect McCarthy to experiment with Newhouse the same way he experimented with Lang. I think Newhouse will eventually be our OG, but he could surprise me. If I recall correctly, he was ok as an OT in college.
I’m with you on Colledge. I’m not a fan either. Some of you may recall how frustrated I was when we tendered him. However, he is a safe option at this point. I think Lang needs to add on about 10 more pounds to be a suitable LG for us.
The reason I prefer Bulaga to be the primary backup is so he has the best chance to get the most reps in. He is our future at LT. If for some reason Clifton never goes down and Tauscher does, yet we put in Lang, then Bulaga missed out on valuable playing time and NFL game speed. This approach is what Dallas did the last few years. Doug Free was their primary backup OT, so when Flozell Adams or Marc Columbo went down, Free was in at either RT or LT. He got quality playing time and will start, unless Alex Barron keeps him on the bench once that trade is finalized with St. Louis.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I think Dietrich-Smith makes it. If Spitz wins the LG spot then they will need a guy to back-up C, that is D-S. Barring an injury, i don’t see how Barbre or Giacomini make it this year. If Barbre beat out Giacomini for the RT job last season, and considering how well Barbre played, what does that say about where Giacomini is in his development? It would take the mother of all off-season improvements for Giacomini to even be mentioned as a #2 this season. And don’t forget, that they have already tried Barbre at G before.
I think the versatility of Lang, Bulaga, and Newhouse spells the end for Barbre and Giacomini. Actually, Barbre spells the end for Barbre. Giacomini is a victim of only being a RT, and apparently not a very good one at that.
i say barbre and giacomni and your future o line wll be bulaga spitz wells sitton lang. With newhouse being a sub for basically all positions because they said he can even play center. Maybe he even pushes spitz for his spot in the coming years.
by Adam Tarasievich on May 6, 2010 12:56 PM CDT reply actions
odd man out
I have to believe Deitrich Smith is one of the guys that has to go!!! With Spitz and Wells both being good centers there is no need for Deitrich Smith, plus he is TOO SMALL!!! He just doesn’t impress me as a guy who can be relied upon to block the big NT… Lose Smith and then it comes down to Barbre and Giacomini… Giacominin only played one year of OT at Louisville before the Packers drafted him. So they knew he was a LONG term project!!! He has to take a step up this season though. Not to be a starter, but at least a competent backup… Barbre failed his 1st chance at starting, but lets remember that Mike Wahle failed on his first 2 chances to start!!! Yet we all think of him as being a great player… THe one thing that is likely to keep Barbre from developing into a good player is his intelligence, or lack thereof… Scored about a 10 on the wonderlic.
OL are a postion that takes a couple years to develop… Even Rivera didn’t start until his 3rd season!!! My guess is that Deitrich Smith and Barbre are the odd men out!!!
That's better than the record low '6' that Vince Young got
Did you know….that a score of 10 or low is considering illiterate?
I usually take the Wonderlic Score seriously for QB’s though. The QB has the most difficult task in having to make quick decisions. There is an aspect where it would come in handy for OT’s though…speed rush or bull rush, which one is coming? The big question is: can he play, yes or no?
P.S- I still think Vince Young will flop.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
wonderlic
THe QB and OL have to be the 2 most important positions where intelligence matters!!! OL have alot of line calls, audibles and quick adjustments that have to be made on the fly… Look at the best OL as a group or as a single player, they always have wonderlic scores in the 20s… OL takes some intelligence and Barbre doesn’t have it… Barbre and Deitrich Smith, IMO, should be cut!!! Don’t like either of them!!!
As a former offensive lineman
I agree with your statement that we are the most intelligent pl;ayers. Guards, especially, are smarter than everyone else.
i was a guard.
I didn’t say they were the most intelligent… Just that its an important position, where intelligence helps… HS not withstanding!!! LOL
I'm saying that guargs are the most intelligent.
Because we are. And the best looking too.
Plus we can dance.
ya but the answer for barbe can he play no. I mean riviera and wahle were braught up but even when they did bad they showed some glimpse of evenutally they can be good. With barbre he just loos lost and that s when we were at our worse when he played.
by Adam Tarasievich on May 6, 2010 2:08 PM CDT reply actions
I think it’s too much to assume that Giacomini must be worse than Barbre just because Barbre “won” the starting job. Remember Spitz over Wells? Sometimes our coaches have been guilty of pre-determining who’s going to win the starting jobs before the competition even starts.
The coaches have loved Barbre’s athleticism since the day he got here and have just praised him over the moon every chance they get. “oo, we love his athleticism!” …which may be true, I don’t know. He’s got crappy footwork, though, that’s for sure. So maybe he can play at guard where there’s not such a wide area to cover and he could just go straight ahead more.
But, yeah, Barbre and Giacomini (in that order) would be the two linemen in the most trouble for this season.
I do remeber Spitz v. Wells and Spitz won. But, he was not replaced due to ineffectiveness, he was replaced because he went on injured reserve. Big difference. The fact that Giacomini didn’t even get a sniff when Barbre proved to be ineffective says alot about where he is as a player. So, like I said, barring some miracle improvement by Giacomini, I think he is gone.
Spitz vs Wells
Spitz won the job because he performed better. He lost the job because he went on IR, not because of poor performances.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
i dont know if i would even want to see barbre at guard. Because we have 2 good guards in spitz and sitton i think newhouse and colledge will be god off the bench then center wells and takles taucher/lang clifton/bulaga im acutally really confident with our oline this year. Now if rodgers gets some protection and has time to look threw the field he is going to have even more of a monster year then he as in the past 2 seasons. I say 40 tds 5,000 yards or pretty close to it 5-7 interceptions because balls get tiped stuff happens and maybe mvp aaron rodgers.
by Adam Tarasievich on May 6, 2010 2:54 PM CDT reply actions
That's a good point
I guess I’m assuming that the coaching staff was actually seeing something real in Barbre’s athleticism. If he really is this superfreak of a guy, then…
But, as far as I’m concerned… cut him. His footwork was as bad as I’ve ever seen.
by Curly Lambeau on May 6, 2010 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
assuming
people are already assuming that this newhouse kid will make the team?
lets wait and see him in pads before we put him on the roster, he may stink. remember last year our 5th round ol pick merridith, didn’t make theactive roster and was plucked off the practice squad. could be the same senario.
imo———-starting o-line should be:
LT clify——-LG lang—-C wells—-RG sitton—-RT tausch
players i would release———colledge,giacomini
well...
I’m okay with that line. My only problem is that nobody’s backing up Tauscher. Meanwhile, you’d have Spitz dying on the vine unil there’s an injury on the interior. I mean, are you envisioning Lang as the starting guard AND the backup LT? …because that’s no good. That’s how we got into trouble last year when everybody on the entire line shifted around like musical chairs everytime there was a sprained ankle.
I say keep a back-up for each tackle position (Bulaga & Lang), along with two reserves who can play all the interior positions (for a total of 9 roster spots). So, my line would look like this:
Clifton (Bulaga)
Spitz
Wells
Sitton
Tauscher/Lang (whoever wins a camp battle starts, loser backs him up)
Then, for interior back-ups, keep 2 out of these 4 (depending on how they perform in camp): Colledge, Dietrich-Smith, Barbre and Newhouse. The only way Giacomini keeps his job is if he proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can be a capable back-up at RT. If he does, then you can move Lang to guard if you want and cut another member of the group of 4 that I mentioned earlier.
…unless you want Newhouse and Giacomini competing for the back-up RT spot, but… myeh, I don’t know about that. Rookie tackles make me nervous.
by Curly Lambeau on May 6, 2010 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Based on how Lang played last year, compared to Tauscher, I don't see Lang winning that starting job.
Lang’s not nearly as proven as Tauscher, because he’s had less than a season of NFL experience (I think, feel free to correct me on that).
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on May 7, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
starting
Well the fact that Lang is in the offseason between his 1st and 2nd seasons, when most players improve more than at any other time, and Tauscher is clearly in decline, I think it gives Lang a chance. Plus Lang didn’t practice at RT at all last season until he stepped in for Tauscher. Other than that he was at LG for the entire offseason last year!
I don’t think it likely that Lang beats out Tauscher, but its not out of the question given the circumstances either!!! Don’t be too surprised if Lang wins the job outright!
But don’t forget that Meridith only got cut because we kept 3 fullbacks. …which is then why we had to take another interior O-lineman this year. Grr! 3 fullbacks! What were they thinking?!
by Curly Lambeau on May 6, 2010 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Couple things
For starters, where is Jason Spitz? Spitz is a better Center than Wells. If you want Wells as the Center, then Spitz clearly needs to be our LG.
Second, TJ Lang weighs 312 lbs. That’s 28 pounds lighter than the ideal weight for a Guard. We need to figure out where we want him to play. Most of us agree his future is at Guard. I must agree here, the problem is he’s too light at this point. He needs more weight to maintain himself against the bigger and elite DT’s in the league. Who knows, maybe he is the future at RT. He could be, and if he is, he won’t need to beef up at all. Just a thought.
The question on Lang has a direct effect on Bulaga. I would prefer to make Bulaga the primary backup for both OT positions strictly to give him reps as a rookie. Once Bulaga becomes our starting LT in the future, I would prefer to have a backup LT and a backup RT to eliminate the whole “musical chairs” rotation. If Lang’s future is indeed at RT though, we need to keep him there. It may hurt Bulaga’s development if Clifton never goes down and Tauscher does, but it will ensure that we have our future set at RT. Lang needs to be either our future LG or RT. Which one is it? No switching around anymore, because time will run out.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Ideal
I agree w/ you about Spitz being the center… I don’t care for Wells much!
DOn’t know where you get the ideal wt thing from, but the ideal wt for an OG in the zbs is DEFINITELY not 340!!! Packers use of the the zone blocking puts a premium on OL who are agile and athletic and can get to the 2nd level to block. Its not a power blocking scheme where alot of it is about weight and brute force. For the Packers zbs, they perfer OL who are in the 310 -320 range and are very mobile… Your feelings about the zbs, notwithstanding…
Bulaga will get quite a few reps just at LT… Clifton is usually on a snap count in the OTA’s and training camp, so I wouldn’t worry too much about Bulaga getting reps. He’ll likely get all the reps he needs just backin up Cliffy
You say you want to eliminate the “musical chairs” but yet you want Bulaga subjected to playing both LT and RT! Makes NO SENSE.
Woah, haha
my bad on the math! 18 pounds is what I meant to say. The Guard should be close to or around 330.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Not in the zbs!
In the zbs, the ideal wt is in the 310-320 range TOPS!!! In a power run scheme 330 is a good wt, but not the zbs… Regardless of your feelings about the zbs.
I guess I'm still used to the power running scheme
I know the linemen need to be quicker and more athletic, so that doesn’t surprise me. When i look at some other team that run the ZBS though, they have G’s that are near 330 though. That’s where I’m thrown off.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
As for Bulaga
Yes, I want to eliminate that. However, I did specify that just for his rookie year, I want him to play swing. I want Bulaga to be the primary backup OT just to get him more opportunities. UNLESS, TJ Lang is indeed our future at RT. If that’s the case, then we keep Bulaga where he’s at. If Lang does become a Guard, then I want to keep him there. It’s just for one year that I want Bulaga to play both positions to make sure he’s ready to go when he does get his calling card.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I gotta say, though, I don’t understand this business of wanting to put Lang at guard. You don’t take a tackle and put him at guard. Apologies to ktenreb, but guards are guards because they can’t play tackle (kinda’ like cornerbacks are receivers who can’t catch). Lang has proven that he can play tackle very well. Why mess with that?
difference
Theres a big difference between playing OT in college and OT in the NFL… ALOT of OT in the college ranks get moved to OG in the NFL. THats why Colledge and Lang were projected as OG in the NFL… Most didn’t think Lang had OT potential in the NFL. He was projected at LG, and possibly a RT, which is likely where he ends up. But even w/ that he still played LT in college and is having to move to RT, due to not having the ability to play LT in the NFL!
This is a small sample size
When Lang went in for Clifton the drop off was very little vs. Allen and later in the season when Cliffy was hurt.
That's just wrong
Lang was overmatched at LT against Jarred Allen.
Yeah, he really was. We had a Rb help him pretty much every play, granted it was Grant who couldn’t block me (6’ 2" 180 lbs.) lol.
by packallday555 on May 7, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Because he is a guard
He looks like a guard, not a tackle. Believe it or not, there are very large differences, although in a “conventional” (i.e. a “non-zone-blocking”) scheme, the LG and the RT tend to have similar characteristics, in that they are supposed to be both drive blockers and have some athleticism. RGs tend to be pile drivers, and LTs tend to be finesse-ballet types. This is a gross oversimplification, of course, and it doesn’t apply in a zone-blocking scheme.
lang played well at tackle?
well opinions do very, he played so well that the pack had to resign tausch to play rt on 1 healthy leg.
Lang replaced Colledge, who had replaced Clifton, on the left side, not the right. Tausch was re-signed to replace Barbe. Lang just stepped in on the right side until Tausch was ready.
ahhh
lang replaced colledge at gaurd, colledge stunk at LT so lang was forced to play Lt and was below average, then when barbre was pathetic lang played some rt.
there’s a reason that the packers had lang exclusively playing lg behind colledge during all mini-camps last year. i went to about a dozen practices last year and lang never took one snap at any tackle position. the packers didn’t believe he could play tackle last year, so i’ll go with their judgement.
By comparison
Statistically he was bad at tackle, but he seemed bad due to raw technique and rookie mistakes. I’m willing to give him a mulligan as a rookie because he looked really good at times.
Give him a mulligan, that's fine
But don’t put him in a position where he can’t succeed. I think Lang can be an average guard, given time, possibly even better. I just don’t think he’s a tackle. He’s certainly not a left tackle.
I’d be willing to give him a break but I’d never wanna see him at LT again. I just don’t think that’s where he should play. He should be a LG or RT (if we’re in dier need.) Like ktenreb said above, both positions tend to be guys who have some drive blocking ability, and Lang certainly does. He seems like he could turn into an excellent run blocker.
This is why I liked the Buluga pick so much. Sitton was a good run blocker this past year. Lang looks like he could be, and Buluga has the looks of being a good run blocker too. If Spitz was a good run blocker before his injury but who knows how he’ll come back. If he can though, we could potentially have 4 OL who are good run blockers, and solid at pass blocking. Imagine how deadly the offense could be if we could actually run the ball…
by packallday555 on May 7, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
LT- Clifton, Bulaga
LG- Spitz, Colledge
C- , Wells, Smith
RG- Sitton, Newhouse
RT- Tauscher, Lang
Not listed? Gone or Practice Squad.
I would keep GIacomini ove Deitrich Smith!!! Giacomini is a long term project at RT. Of course he has to show he can be at least a backup RT to stick… I have NO use for Deitrich smith!!! TOO small and I am kinda tired of Wells to for that matter, but he earned the starting Center job w/ his play last year. Get rid of Deitrich Smith this year, draft a center next year and go w/ Spitz and the rookie…. TIred of Centers that are too small to handle the NT!!!
Why not have Giacomini as the backup guard then?
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on May 7, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Giacomini is not an OG… He is 6’7, he is way too tall to be a good OG and be able to get low enough to get leverage in the DT and NT he would be facing. Most of which are in the 6’3 to 6’5 range. He is just ideally suited, given his size and athletic skills to be a good RT. He just had soo little experience playing OL in general, and RT in particular that it was going to take him a few years… And that doesn’t even mean he is a going to become a viable RT either. He had a LONG way to go, when they drafted him. Whether he gets there is anyones guess!!!
Man I would think being 6’7 would be a bad thing for an olineman…how is a QB supposed to see over a mountain like that?
QB's don't throw over the OL
They throw between them… How do you think Brees at 6’ and Rodgers at 6’2 or Favre for that matter also 6’2 are able to be great?!
Lang
From various interviews I’ve come across with MM I guess the coach staff has been having the same debate we’ve had here about what Lang is, is he a LG or a RT? The camp led by MM was that Lang was a LG, the camp that Campen, or maybe Philbin, was leading was that he was an RT. After the Bulaga pick I seem to remember hearing that the RT camp was winning that battle, but something tells me we won’t know for certain until training camp starts.
I've heard this too
I think they are going to give him a shot at RT cuz that position is so much harder to fill and if they wind up bumping him to LG he will have to bulk up more anyway.
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