Start: Johnny Jolly or Somebody Else at Left Defensive End
by Brandon on Jun 11, 2010 8:00 AM CDT
in Green Bay Packers Analysis
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PrintI've been looking at the offensive line this week, but I jumped over to the defensive line after reading this tweet from Greg Bedard about Green Bay Packers DE Johnny Jolly and his low rating via Pro Football Focus. Obviously he's got some legal problems (and still hasn't signed his restricted free agent tender). If he doesn't sign by June 15th, then the Packers could lower the dollar amount. His only threat at that point would be to sit out the 2010 season, such as these guys threatened to do. While not a great player, he's remained solid during his career and well worth keeping as long as they control his rights. But whether it be over concerns about his play or ongoing legal problems, the Packers haven't stood pat. Who might play at left DE other than Jolly?
NT Ryan Pickett. While NT B.J. Raji played a lot at left DE in 2009, it was Pickett who was playing the position last month in practice. Though the most likely reason for the switch was to get Raji more time in at nose tackle, Packers.com now lists Raji as a NT exclusively while Pickett is a DE/NT. The player that isn't starting at NT will have the first shot at replacing Jolly at left DE (if he has to be replaced).
DE Mike Neal. The Packers 2nd round pick was a surprise selection in April. As a high draft choice he has to be considered an option to see playing time at left DE in 2010. However, it's not clear whether he'll be groomed at right DE in case DE Cullen Jenkins leaves in free agency after his four-year contract expires. I assume he'll receive reps on both sides.
DE C.J. Wilson. Same things that were said about Neal apply to Wilson (except the high draft choice part). On paper they're almost identical (6'3" and 290 lbs.). It's possible he's a hidden gem, but there usually is a good reason why players are undrafted until the 7th round. He'll need to have a solid training camp just to make the roster or practice squad, and he won't be given as much room to error as Neal will have.
DE Justin Harrell. He's at practice now which is more than you can say he did last year. It's hard to count on him, but I'm also mentioning him as only the 6th option. If he can stay healthy and on the field, maybe he can show us why the Packers selected him in the 1st round in 2007.
None of these names jump out as a star defender, but they're being asked to do the dirty work and occupy blockers so one of the linebackers can make a play. The likely starter isn't obvious, but that helps give any of these players a chance to win the starting job in training camp.
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LDE
I guess in the situation w/ Jolly, I have to say Pickett will likely be the starter… Jolly could return if he’s acquitted and not suspended, but one or both seems Unlikely.
Thats said, Pickett would be my choice on 1st down… But I would have a really healthy rotation including Neal and maybe Harrell (if he stays healthy).
I see Neal as a LDE and Wilson as more of a RDE… It just seems that Wilson has a little more pass rush ability, at least to me… So he fits better on the open side of the field. Neal seems to be more stout vs the run game and better suited to the strong side.
Just my take, we’ll see come Sept!
Raji
Right now I would rather see Pickett play the nose and Raji play end if Jolly is out. We know that Pickett can fill that middle and Raji should be athletic enough to play the end and put a rush on the passer.
agreed
Although Raji seemed to indicate in some comments he made that playing NT would help him in the pass-rush dept.
But it’s too early to say. We have no idea what any of the candidates currently on the roster will bring to the position. Plus, on the D-line, having a deep rotation is way more important than who starts. And it’s looks like that will be the case for us however you roll the dice.
by Curly Lambeau on Jun 11, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm still mad at Jolly...
…for that first game against the Vikes last year.
Seriously though, there’s no end in sight for his troubles and the Pack has to consider camp with someone who offers a better chance of being consistently present.
No brainer.
"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser." - Vince Lombardi
present
This is the only time he has not been present. And did his headbut cause the end of the game for the Packers? I don’t remember… Either way, it was dumb tho.
Generally I would have said Raji at LDE, but since the Packers (correctly) are using him ONLY at NT, I went w/ him as strictly the NT, and Pickett at some LDE. I really think we have to make use of Neal and Wilson alot this year. Try to use them in situations when they can come in and help keep the other DL fresh.
Lets see how thing turn out for him… In the meantime, prepare to be w/o him. If he is acquitted and we have him then its a bonus.
His headbutt gave them 3 more downs to work with inside of our 10 yard line, and eventually led to them scoring a TD instead of a FG.
by packallday555 on Jun 11, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
The Headbutt Heard around the Midwest...
that play was just dumb. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
It really changed the complexion of that game in terms of momentum.
by Bush League All Star on Jun 12, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
i don't quite get it
Many people say that NT is the key to an effective 3-4. Pickett did an outstanding job at it last year. I believe when I read that Raji is ONLY a NT. Yet does it make sense to move such a valuable piece of the puzzle to a different spot just to make room for a high draft choice?
In that same vein, I think that Chillar is a better and more versatile LB than Hawk. I think AJ gets the playing time because of his high draft status.
I say let them fight it out in training camp and stop forcing decisions when there are no pads on.
I think that is what they are doing. They are giving Raji a chance to get some time at NT so that he and Pickett can fight for that job with the loser taking over the vacant DE job. If Raji beats out Pickett you KNOW we are in great shape up the middle!
by TrevorR on Jun 11, 2010 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's more of a pass rush thing.
I think when talking about the switch, the coaches were saying that Pickett’s pretty much proved that he can stop the run anywhere on the line, and that they feel Raji has a better chance to collapse the pocket down the middle on passing downs.
Yeah, your probably right. Neither Pickett or Jolly could provide much pass rush from the base defense, and that hurt us. I think Raji is going to be more of an impact player for us now that he’s in great shape, and 100% healthy.
by packallday555 on Jun 12, 2010 5:29 AM CDT up reply actions
True dat, Trevor
That is exactly what I was thinking.
If a player of Pickett’s caliber loses his job to a player who proves to be better, that is a nice problem to have.
-
The glass is more than half-full.
Raji
I think Raji is going to blow up this year…healthy and hungry to get back in middle..(his natural pos)He is younger faster and stronger than Pickett and will be a D-fensive nightmare. Let’s hope he takes that step…we would have a great rotation at end too….Go Pack!
I like Pickett at NT and Raji at LDE
I don’t like the idea of Pickett being at LDE at all, and he would be too expensive to sit on the bench. I guess the way I look at it, why change what already works? Raji is the future at NT, true. However, I feel our DL would be best overall with Raji at DE for the time being. I’m curious as to how Neal and Harrell perform though.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
agree
I really think the Packers are just making sure that Raji gets his reps at NT and learns the techniques! Last year, he didn’t really have that chance… late signing and the ankle injury necessitated basically only using him at LDE both in games and practice. I doubt he really got many reps at NT last year! IMO, this is just to get him trained for NT so he can take a larger role at that spot. But when training camp and pre-season start, I fully expect that Pickett will be the starting NT!!!
I don’t think Pickett can really play DE very well, and Raji is a ways behind Pickett when it comes to playing NT!!!
Your probably right. It just wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense unless Raji looked like an absolute monster at NT in training camp. Raji has exceptional quickness, which makes him a better fit at LDE then Pickett. He and Jenkins also possess the quickness and strength to provide a bit of a pass rush from the DE spot, which is something Pickett, and Jolly for that matter don’t possess.
by packallday555 on Jun 11, 2010 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Neal, Wilson, and Harrell
are all unproven, sad to say. They’ll make great depth on the chart, but they won’t start. Seems to me Pickett is likely to start on the outside, although he seems a bit big for that postion at 340lbs. Even Raji is smaller than that, and much more athletic to boot. If we don’t have a guy who’s quick enough to see a run bounce outside and knock it down quickly, teams will exploit that pretty badly- especially since we don’t really have a proven OLB on that side.
To add to this
I would put Raji and Pickett on a rotation at NT while Neal, Wilson, Harrell, and Jenkins fill out the DE spots. 3-4 DE’s are strange in that they need a big guy like every 3-4 d-lineman neds to be, but they also have to be quick enough to deal with running back who are hitting the holes between th guard and tackles and outside, or at least take up those blockers and avoid pulls. Nosetackle is the prefered position for any of these guys though, just bull your way through and occupy as much space as possible. Raji will dominate the middle, I fully believe that.
I think the Packers should use the Elephant Formation on obvious passing downs more often
For those of you that don’t know what the Elephant Formation is, it will have Clay Matthews play the same role he had at USC. However, the difference here is I would like to put Clay at LE or Cullen Jenkins at LE. Yes, Clay would be standing up, but he needs to be on the opposite side of Jenkins who is our best pass rushing DE. If we consistently keep them on the same side, the OL can repeatedly slid their protection over, thus giving the QB all day in the pocket.
It’s an idea on passing downs. The compliment to this is our standard Nickel Package in 2 DE’s and 2 OLB’s, with Clay on the same side as Jenkins. I think we should try to mix it up more and see what works. Who knows though, maybe Brad Jones steps up and adds a good pass rush when we need him to.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Pressure
I like having Jenkins and Matthews on the same side!!! If that puts pressure on the offense to keep 3 or 4 blockers to that side, it opens up the other side. Which is why we need another pass rusher at LOLB. I don’t expect Jones to be able to provide what we need in that regard though. He’s never been a playmaker in college or last year, so I don’t see it happening now… If it does it would solve our largest area of need, IMO.
W/ Jenkins and Jolly in the middle, I would expect more consistent inside pressure this season, w/ Neal and maybe Wilson helping also.
Never?
How can we expect Jones to be a playmaker when he’s played all of eight games and was a seventh round draft pick? Comparing him to Matthews and expecting him to make that large an impact right away is a bit of a high expectation for the guy isn’t it?
by PackApologist on Jun 12, 2010 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
compare
Who compared him to anyone? I sure didn’t…
What I am saying is that at whatever level he has played, unless maybe HS, he has never been a playmaker! Usually guys that are not playmakers in college, don’t suddenly become a playmakers at a higher level of competition. Just doen’t happen, except on VERY rare occasions!
Jones had 8.5 sacks, 10 hurries, One forced fumbles and no other impact plays of any kind in his ENTIRE college career!!! Good playmakers, much less elite playmakers do that in a season. THe reason he was a 7th rd pick is because he simply wasn’t involved in any plays! Too think that Jones has a chance to become something that he has NEVER been is simply irrational!!! He played last year, like he always has… A virtually invisible man on the field. A couple coverage sacks, ONE pass defensed, and ZERO impact plays!!!
I hope he proves me wrong, but IMO, he is just taking up space at a position that puts him in position to make plays!!! OLB in the 34 D, are supposed to be in postion to make plays. Jones isn’t that kinda player… Never has been, never will be… According to his history!!!
What's the old saying in investment?
To make a good investment you should look at the track record and keep in mind that past success does not indicate future success.
I didn’t mean to insinuate that you were comparing Jones to Matthews. My point was simply that expectations for a rookie should be relatively low. With that in mind, Jones last season was a delightful surprise. Hopefully Jones can build upon that delightful surprise of a season and grow into a solid defensive talent. I’m willing to give the coaching staff some latitude on this because they have gambled and won on some of that young talent so far. They believe in the progress of Jones, so I can wait and see.
I can also get why you don’t though. After all, we aren’t too far away from the delightful surprise of Samkon Gado. He didn’t do too much after people started scouting him and preparing for him, and Jones did disappear a bit once teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh scouted for him.
by PackApologist on Jun 12, 2010 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Stroh and I are not saying Jones is a bad player, because he is serviceable
but sitting here hoping he becomes a playmaker is not smart football. I really hope he does step up, because if we want to go anywhere in the playoffs, we will need him to step up his game and get after the QB. Considering nodody has ever really seen that yet, it’s tough to count on that. How long will we be waiting? 5-6 years? I sure hope not.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I think he was better then serviceable though. He was definitely above average in coverage, and surprisingly good against the run. His pass rush needs some improvement and hopefully some added weight will help with that along with another offseason.
I really think our inability to get pressure on the Qb had more to do with our DL then it did Jones, and I think a couple of things that have taken place this offseason support that thought. First, we drafted two DL, both whom are smaller 3-4 De, and both whom possess good pass rush ability. I’m sure some of that had to do with Jolly’s legal issues too though. The second thing would be the possibilty of moving Raji to NT despite Pickett playing really well there last season.
Pickett excels against the run, and has the feet to do so from any position on the DL. The one thing he doesn’t do well is rush the passer, which is supposed to be one of Raji’s strengths.
I think Jones is going to turn out to be a pleseant surprise this next season.
by packallday555 on Jun 12, 2010 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions
servicable?
How do you figure? He had one (1) pass defensed!!! THat certainly doesn’t indicate a guy that was good in coverage does it? No INT’s… That doesn’t indicate good in coverage either!
Jone finished the year at 230 lbs, why do you think they wanted him to get up to 250? It wasnt so he would be faster!! Its so he would be more stout vs the run… He got pushed around in the running game!!!
OLB in a 34 D are the primary pass rushers… You can shift blame all you want but the facts are that he wasn’t rushing the QB much at all. Why do you think that was? My guess would be cuz he wasn’t getting home… Got a couple coverage sacks, but I don’t remember him ever beating a block to get home!
We need Jones to get 10-12+ sacks and make some other impact plays!!! Last year he was involved in zero impact plays whatsoever!!! Hope I’m wrong, but he’s never been that kinda player, despite more than adequate athleticism!
33 tackles, 4 sacks, one pass defensed… NO other impact plays whatsoever… That doesn’t inspire me… Neither does your blind faith. Hope I’m wrong!!!
So he needs to have a ton of passes defended and INT’s for us to consider him good in coverage? Yeah, sorry but that’s just not how it works. Why do you think our pass defense improved after he came in for Kampman? He was ALWAYS in the right place for us. Whether it be in coverage or coming up against the run. Why do you figure McCarthy talked so much about how schematically sound he was all the time?
Jone finished the year at 230 lbs, why do you think they wanted him to get up to 250? It wasnt so he would be faster!! Its so he would be more stout vs the run… He got pushed around in the running game!!!
He was actually really good against the run, and a lot of the time made up for Jolly getting pushed around. They want him to beef up because he couldn’t provide any push as a bull rusher, and adding strength and weight obviously helps that.
OLB in a 34 D are the primary pass rushers… You can shift blame all you want but the facts are that he wasn’t rushing the QB much at all. Why do you think that was?
Because Matthews turned into a monster opposite of him and his pass rush wasn’t as good as you’d like a 3-4 OLB’s too be. But do you think the coaches really expected it to be? The guy was a 7th round pick. He was a long shot to even make the roster or practice squad, let alone end up starting. His body wasn’t where you’d hope for it to be (hints the coaches wanting him to put on weight), and he was a rookie learning Caper’s 3-4 scheme, which is pretty complicated wouldn’t you say?
We need Jones to get 10-12+ sacks and make some other impact plays!!!
And you do realize that in 8 games he had 4 sacks right? That’s on pace for 8 on the year, as a 7th round pick. Don’t you think it’d be safe to say his pass rush will likely improve here the next 2-3 years? Or at least enough to the point where he can add an extra sack or two a season? I don’t think it’s that crazy to think that.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the guy is going to all of the sudden morph into a superstar or something. I just think it’s rididculous to basically write him off at this point as simply “serviceable”. It’s like your completely overlooking the fact that he was basically a project player who was forced to come in and not only play but start probably 2-3 years before the coaches expected him too. Of course he isn’t going to be super polished.
One other thing. Lamar Woodley was drafted in the 2nd round by the Steelers in 2007. That season he played 8 games, like Jones. His stat line went a little something like this.. 36 tackles, 4 sacks, and 0 passes defended. Should the Steelers have simply written him off as “serviceable” as well?
by packallday555 on Jun 13, 2010 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Jones
You mean the better pass D, like Big Ben throwing for 500 yds? Or Was it Warner throwing for 400 and 4TD’s… He was involved in those game right? Being in the right place, is just being there, but he didn’t do anything!!!
He made up for Jolly getting pushed around? LOL Now that’s funny! Jolly had his problems but Jones certainly didn’t help him! OLB at 250 don’t win too many bull rusher vs 320 lb RT!!! LMAO
He had 6 months to learn the system… Weak argument! I know he was a 7th rd pick. And thats exactly what he played like!!! No impact plays and a few coverage sacks. If he had done anything at CU making plays he would have been drafted ALOT higher. He has more than enough athleticism, just isn’t aware enough to make meaningful plays.
I haven’t written him off… But his history doesn’t indicate a player who will ever be a playmaker!!! He needs to improve his pass rush move alot to really get home in the NFL. I certainly hope your not comparing him to Lamar Woodley!!! ‘07 Lamar Woodley started ZERO games!!! NONE… Had 14 tackles but 4 sacks and forced a fumble, even though he hardly played! He’s had 11.5 and 13.5 sacks (and 5 passes defensed) the past 2 seasons!!! Now thats production…
Really what did you see to suggest he’ll ever be more than just a servicable player?!!! It certainly wasn’t anything in colege or last year…
Haha well it’s pretty clear you seem to think your 100% right about this argument, and mosts others for that matter so I’m not sure how much sense debating with you even made.
It’s easy to point out the games that our WHOLE defense struggled. It was just pretty clear to anyway watching all of our games that when Jones came in for Kampman, the defensive playbook opened up for Capers, and in turn improved it.
He made up for Jolly getting pushed around? LOL Now that’s funny! Jolly had his problems but Jones certainly didn’t help him! OLB at 250 don’t win too many bull rusher vs 320 lb RT!!! LMAO
Go back and watch tape from our games against Pittsburgh, Dallas, and Arizona. Jolly repeatedly got pushed back, and Jones stepped up and made some nice stops. He definitely did help Jolly out. I never said him being at 250 would allow him too win many bull rushes did I? Just simply saying, added weight and strength is something that will likely help him in his pass rush. As a a former strength training coach your not really going to disagree with that are you?
So 6 months is enough time for a rookie to learn the system? How is that a weak argument? His senior year at CU he had 80 tackles, 2 forced fumbles, and 7 sacks. Not superstar numbers but definitely not numbers that hint he “hadn’t done anything” at CU in terms of making plays.
Do you really know that he “hardly played” or is that just an assumption your making? Regardless, the 2 played in a similar amount of games and had similar stats.
I’ve already told you why I THINK he will become more then a serviceable player. You just don’t like any of those reasons and basically came up with reasons to disregard mine. It’s pretty obvious you like to beat your chest and show your dominance, which is fine. For now we’ll just have to agree to disagree, and see how things turn out this coming season.
by packallday555 on Jun 14, 2010 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Making up
OK, really you need to quite making up numbers for Jones! THis is from the NFL draft page for Jones career at CU…
Jones produced 242 career tackles – good for 35th in program history. He also had 8.5 sacks in 69 career games to go along with six passes defensed, 10 quarterback hurries and one forced fumble. THose are the same numbers that CBS sportsline gave!!!
You haven’t given any reason why you think he will, just that you think he will… Based on numbers from the NFL pages he was a very marginal player! The only “reason” you give is that he is young and going to improve… Sorry, but thats not a convincing argument given his inability to make plays at CU.
As a former S and C coach, the extra wt is going to help him more in the run game that pass rush. Pass rush he needs to utilize his best asset… SPEED and quickness… Problem is that gaining 20 lbs in a year is going to slow him down, not make him faster.
Another from the NFL draft page…
Eye-popping athleticism shown in workouts doesn’t necessarily translate onto the field. Hasn’t developed into the player his athleticism makes seem possible. Best fit might be as a 4-3 outside linebacker and special teams ace.
Pretty much like I’ve been saying… Despite more than enough athleticism he hasn’t been a playmaker! IMO, he lacks the awareness to ever do so.
I saw your numbers.
are from the Packer.com page on Jones… Mine are from 2 independent sources! I would say the NFL draft page and the CBS page are going to be more accurate… Not to mention that they have no reason to inflate his stats. Packers would obviously want to portray him in a more favorable light.
No, they were actually from his wikipedia page. I think he COULD become a good player because he is smart and has more then enough athletic ability to do so. The fact that he stepped in last year and did well only adds to my thinking of that.
by packallday555 on Jun 14, 2010 2:17 AM CDT up reply actions
psst...
This is from the Colorado Buffalos website:
2008 (Sr.)—He started all 12 games at outside linebacker, earning honorable mention All-Big 12 honors from both the Associated Press and the league coaches; he was second-team All-Colorado by the state’s chapter of the National Football Foundation. He was CU’s co-defensive player of the year, as selected by the coaches (Dave Jones Award). He played the third most snaps on defense (707), racking up 78 tackles, of which 48 were solo and 14 for losses, including seven sacks (the latter two both team highs). He also led the team in quarterback hurries with 14 and was second in third down stops (12). He also forced two fumbles, had a pass breakup and three chasedowns (near sacks). He matched his career high of 10 tackles against West Virginia (five solo), had six tackles or more in eight games and at least one tackle for loss in nine games. He was CU’s defensive player of the week for the Kansas State game, when he had four tackles (one solo), a forced fumble, and the second most hurries for a single game in school history—seven. He closed his career with nine tackles at Nebraska, which including eight solo stops, three for losses and two sacks. His 242 career tackles rank 35th at Colorado.
so there was his SENIOR year…pretty damn nice season. You can wrap up his other years into it to make him look bad, but he had a very nice senior year and a very nice rookie year. Going off of both of those, there is still a nice chance we haven’t seen the best from the kid. So here’s an idea. Get the shovel out of your hands and let the kid have a chance to prove you wrong before you start throwing the dirt on his grave after half a season.
shovel
Look, I don’t have anything against him… I HOPE He does improve. It is the biggest hole in the Packers D, IMO. Another pass rusher opposite Matthews would make the Packers a dominant D this season! I am less concerned about the CB… Jones has enough athletic ability, but seems to lack the instincts or awareness needed to be a playmaker! This year will go a long way in determining what he becomes… JUst another sevicable player or a needed component of a top team!
okay. thanks for clarifying. I’d like to see him have the chance to compete for the job this year. If they had stumbled onto something better that would have been nice but NOT if its JUST a passrusher. That position also has to be good in coverage too.
Its probably the weakest spot on the D…maybe the nickelback, its a tough call. But yeah, its the weakspot but I’d like to see if he can grow into the role. I think he has some potential. Before we bury him, I just want to see him have a shot to show us what he has after a full year.
Haha thatnk you, that was really all I’ve been trying to say. He had a nice senior season in which he did some good things, and he looked good for half a season last year.
Too hear people say he likely won’t improve anymore in his career is just silly. Generally, almost every player improves throughout his career, so why Jones wouldn’t is beyond me.
by packallday555 on Jun 14, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't mean serviceable as in Jones is bad
I meant Serviceable as in Jones is an average at best player. He’s alright in coverage, alright against the run, but well below average in getting after the QB.
He had 4 sacks in 8 games. True. However, none of those sacks were impressive. He had 2 against Roethlisberger who was holding onto the ball for 6 or 7 seconds and ran into Jones. Hardly impressive. I remember those sacks clearly.
So he’s serviceable, but not bad. Will he develop? I’m not sure, but I’m not counting on it. We need him to get after the QB on passing downs. That is where our D takes a hit. We need 4 guys that can get after the QB, 2 of the 4 should be OLB’s.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I'd also like to add
I have a feeling that Mike Neal can play NT similar to Jay Ratliff in Dallas. Small, but very very strong. Obviously Neal would be the 3rd guy to put in there from a depth chart standpoint.
I’m still optimistic about Justin Harrell. I think he finally stays healthy this year and does well at DE for us. I’m not counting on it, but I’m optimistic. This debate in what our DL will look like will be ongoing. I assure you of this. It will be ongoing all season.
PS- Johnny Jolly needs to be cut. He’s expendable at this point.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I still say he’s not expendible until we see what we have in Neal and Wilson and Harrell. Too many question marks at this point.
Gotta agree. Jolly was pretty average for us but losing him would still hurt. Between Jenkins, Pickett, Raji, and Jolly we had excellent depth and an excellent rotation. I think the ideal would be for us to have all those guys available, plus see another DL step up and become part of that rotation. But yeah, I think the only way Jolly becomes expendible is if Neal, Wilson, or Harrell step up.
by packallday555 on Jun 12, 2010 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions
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