Is there any reason to keep three FBs again?
by Green and Bold on Jul 21, 2010 1:06 PM CDT
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This is the JonBob's third installment of our Camp Countdown Questions series. Each day leading up to July 31st, we'll be posing a crucial question the Pack need to answer in training camp.
Last year, one of the biggest questions entering camp was which fullback would be cut. The Packers had drafted Quinn Johnson in April, adding a powerful run blocker to a group that already included proven veterans John Kuhn and Korey Hall. The logic of most at the time was that the Packers just couldn't afford to use three roster spots up on a position of diminishing importance, and that they'd be forced to part ways with one of the veterans.
However, Ted Thompson had different things in mind, and the Packers opted to retain all three FBs, a highly unorthodox move in this era of pass happy offenses. Now, nearly one year later, we can't help but to wonder...is there any reason to do it again?
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I am with SpaceGhost and Strohman.
I’d rather see those roster spots go to areas where we need the depth…the defensive backfield and maybe one of the lines (o or d)
Yeah, that’d be the smart thing to do. I’d say the defensive backfield would be a smart place to keep an extra guy, and if not there, the defensive line due to the uncertainty of how our bench guys will perform.
by packallday555 on Jul 25, 2010 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
The Packers will keep 10 DB’s… 6 CB and 4 S. I think the extra roster spot should go to DL. W/o Jolly the Packers have alot of ???. Keep Raji, Jenkins, Pickett, Neal, Harrell, Wilson and Wynn. The DL will need the added depth. Assuming they keep 10 OL…
I’d rather have extra O-linemen. I don’t know why completely other than just seeing Wynn as undersized.
by PackApologist on Jul 26, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
rather
Would you rather have the undersized Wynn or the undersized Dietrich Smith? Especially considering that Smith is in essence our #3 Center behind, Wells and Spitz, I would rather have Wynn!
Dietrich Smith
6’2 310#s Don’t seem small for a center to me. The Packers like him.
There should only be 5 players for the 2 positions
My ideal lineup if Quinn is ready for the starting role
FB- Quinn Johnson
TE- Finley
TE- Lee (blocker)
TE- Havner (also back up FB)
TE- Quarless (could take Havners playing time as he learns the system)
Short yardage TE- Bulaga
If Quinn is not ready, keep Kuhn as well and try to trade Lee for a future 7th rounder or release him.
"I agree but dont agree"
Damn Right...
He is the only TE w/ any experience… Has more than all the other TE’s combined. Plus he’s the best blocker and a willing and accomplished ST player!!!
The one w/ little value is Havner! Say Goodbye Spencer…
Goodbye Spencer!!! LOL
FB Johnson and Kuhn Finley, Lee, Quarless
TE
Lee makes it IMO, cuz he has more experience than all the other TE combined, is a willing and effective ST player and the best blocking TE on the team.
Don’t let Havners TD’s fool you into thinking he can ever be more than a ST player and fringe roster player. He’s just not…
Havner’s presence has little to do with his TD’s. Yes, we know he was lucky to get them. However, keep in mind, he did manage to get them. Whether it’s him finding ways to go unnoticed or half the teams we faced completely forgot about him, he did manage to get those TD’s.
That is not my argument though. Havner is a utility player. He is one of the few that can successfully play multiple positions. In a way, Havner was the 4th FB on the depth chart, 3rd TE on the depth chart, and God knows what number for LB. He is very good on Special Teams which is critical considering how awful they are. If we are looking to win this year, we need our Special Teams unit to be good. Unless he completely flops in Preseason or he does continue to have Off Field issues, I say we keep him. Next year, we consider alternative options.
We can’t cut Quarless because that would be a waste of a draft pick. However, I dont see him playing at all this year. We outta let him learn the system and sit for a year just the way Finley did. I expect big things out of Quarless the following year. Lee will be an expensive backup TE, but at least we have some insurance at that position now. Next year, we may consider cutting Havner or Lee.
FB- Kuhn, Johnson
TE- Finley, Lee, Havner, Quarless
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
utility
What positions can he play… TE, not very well.. LB didn’t cut it at LB so got moved to TE… FB, not better than any of the 3 we already have. Only usefulness is his ST and Lee will more than pick that up! ST teams, its not like he led the team in ST tackles or is indispensible in any way.
Time to move on w/o Havner…
I kind of think 4 TE’s is unnecessary too but who would you rather keep in place of Havner? I think I’d like to see us keep Blackmon and Martin, so I suppose Havner’s spot could be replaced by one of those guys.
by packallday555 on Jul 21, 2010 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions
To name a few
LB – Francois or Zombo
DB – Shields or Martin
DL – Wynn?
OL – Newhouse, Barbre
WR – Patrick Williams
Pretty much anyone w/ potential at his position would be a better option, IMO.
Ah I forgot about Shields. He’s the kid out of Miami right? He definitely has some great potential. I wouldn’t mind seeing him stick around.
by packallday555 on Jul 21, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Shields
He doesnt have great hands…just great feet, and who knows if he can cover.
by SpaceGhost34 on Jul 22, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
That’s all he really needs though as a Cb. Supposedly he’s a pretty darn good gunner. If that’s really true, I think it’d be worth it to keep him around to at least try and see if he has any potential at Cb.
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
As long as Havner is replaced by another defender that can play Special Teams, I’m cool with it. I never said Havner was a good TE, I’m just saying his versatility does help us on the depth chart. His priority is Special Teams though. If we were to add a guy like Shields, I would prefer to see him replace someone of a similar position, like Jarrett Bush. Guys I would consider to replace Havner would be some of the undrafted LB’s we picked up this offseason, like Zombo for example. The thing is they may never play a down at LB. Same for Havner. They are strictly there for Special Teams with a very little chance of ever playing a down during the Regular Season. So the question then boils down to this: Who would you rather have on Special Teams: Havner, Zombo, or those other undrafted LB’s? Havner is the experienced ST player and performed well at that role. I pick Havner. Again, that is just this year. I’m not counting on Quarless at all to play.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
What I mean is
If he is replaced, I’m ok with it if it’s by a LB. However, I would still prefer to keep Havner over any of them. It’s not a big deal to me though overall.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
MM loves him some TE
Remember the way we kept that Humphrey guy around forever? (or whatever his name was)
Every year it was “this is going to be his year” and “we’re really excited about his athleticism” and then he’d do nothing and get hurt in the 2nd week of camp again only to spend another year soaking in the team’s hot tub. Wash, rinse, repeat. Now we’ve got a guy like that in Finley, we’re paying Lee 3 mil a year, we’ve got another guy as a “project,” and they’re still spending high draft picks on more TEs.
McCarthy would keep a whole team of TEs if they let him. …although TT would fight for roster spots for lots of the white LBs that are his passion.
(and I’m saying all this playfully. I like TT and MM. But… at the same time… enough with the utility guys already! You need some stallions too.)
I don't recall any of our TE's being high draft picks
Finley- 3rd Round Pick
Lee- 6th Round Pick I think
Havner- Undrafted
Quarless- 5th Round Pick
MM likes to take risks on talented TE’s late in the draft. I support this approach because it is working. Remember, Finley was not that good as a Rookie and did have quite an attitude, but he was young. Now he’s a rising star. Quarless is virtually identical to Finley. I’m not expecting anything of him as a rookie, so I’m hoping we develop him the same way we developed Finley.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
It's taken a while
Thompson has a soft spot for marginally-talented but “versatile” players, which is what he populated his offensive lines with for several years. I think he is finally giving up on that concept, at least with O-linemen. Defensive backs (you are a safety or a corner, but generally not both) and slow 245-260 pounders, I suppose, “can” line up at FB or TE, but if they are fourth on the depth chart, they don’t need to be on the team (there should never be a “fourth” string tight end or fullback on an NFL roster). Special teams specialists? Please. Our special teams suck. Find someone else.
Good post
But I have to disagree w/ your assertion that he drafted marginally talented, versatile player on purpose. Thompson IMO, used the picks he could on the OL. He used a 2nd and 3rd on Colledge and Spitz and this year a 1st on Bulaga, but he really didn’t have an opportunity to use a 1st rd pick on a LT prior to this season! In reality the only OL that get drafted in the 1st rd are LT. Very few OG or C are ever drafted in the 1st rd. I think Thompson did the best he could w/ what he had to work with in terms of drafting OL. Look at most other rosters and you will be lucky to find any OG or C drafted that high. Most are mid to late round picks that need some time to develop. We really didn’t need to draft any OT until a year or 2 ago. As recently as 07 Clifton and Tausher were playing at a pro bowl level…
TT didn't bring in the zone blocking scheme
It should also be of note that for a while the Packers were brining in smaller, “more athletic” linemen for a while because of what the coaching staff wanted in their offensive line. This is the GM getting what fits the coaching scheme instead of what the GM really likes to draft. As MM and his staff realized that in the NFC North beefier linemen are needed to handle the big DT’s that teams have the style of linemen drafted have changed.
I get that to many fans TT is something of the bogeyman…when something goes wrong just point the finger at him. But really the reason behind it is a subtle mix of best player available versus what is desired by the team at the time.
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
It was McCarthy that wanted to use the zbs… And at first they did rely a little too much on the athletic, smaller OL that best fit that scheme, but that has changed to become the bigger and still fairly athletic OL that we have drafted the past couple years. Partly that may have been what was available too. I know both Colledge and Spitz were a little smaller than most OG, but they were also drafted in the area they were projected, Thompson didn’t reach for them.
Bulaga was this year
Colledge is the classic versatile "tweener. He isn’t strong enough to play guard (his technique just isn’t right, watch how high he tends to get and thereby allow the DT to win the leverage battle), and we saw how lousy he is as a tackle. Spitz was another guy drafted because he could play anywhere on the line (in fairness, I think he’s a pretty decent center and probably the best left guard on the roster, assuming that McCarthy won’t take my advice and make Lang the LG next year).
Regarding zone blocking — I question the cause and effect. Did McCarthy ask for “versatile” quick (and dirty?) linemen (to dive at DTs knees?) so that he could implement the zone blocking scheme, or did he look at the roster, bereft as it was of interior linemen, and decide that his only shot with such limited talent was to go with the ZBS? My guess is that the pitiful state of “talent” at guard after Wahle and Rivera left (Will Whittaker and The Legend That Was Adrian Klemm, replaced the next year by the rookies “Hit ’em High” Colledge and Spitz) caused McCarthy to figure that ZBS was his only chance at having any kind of ground game.
next time try reading.
I said and I quote.. “and this year a 1st on Bulaga”.
Funny that the coaches actually noted that he played w/ very good pad level. But we’re supposed to take your word for it… Riiiight. I will agree he was a bit of a tweener in size, but he is up to 310. Pretty sure that Spitz was only an OG at Louisville, but the Packers saw him as a OG or C.
You can question the zbs if you want, but its not going anywhere. I would like to see the quote of McCarthy asking for versatile OL. When McCarthy arrived, and Thompson to a lesser degree (cuz he had to release Wahle and let Rivera walk) the OL was bereft of talent. Its been a process of building it back up… Thompson using on average 2 picks a year on OL. The zone blocking was brought in by McCarthy, cuz he favored it not cuz he thought the picks of Colledge and Spitz were better in it. McCarthy chose the zbs and Colledge and Spitz were chosen specificly to play in it!
Your “logic” is backassward and flawed!!!
Eh, I could see it going either way regarding McCarthy’s reasoning to go to the zbs. I’m just happy that there appears to be more of an emphasis on us being a “physical” OL. Making guys add some weight and strength was and is a smart thing to do. Sitton and Spitz beefed up before last season, and while Spitz ended up hurt, it appeared to pay off for Sitton. I just hope the personnel guys continue to build on that philosophy. Big, strong guys in the middle, and guys on the edges who are athletic enough to keep up with the speedy De’s/Olb’s.
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Haha amen! Very, very true. No reason to keep 3 Fb’s or 4 Te’s.
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions
HAHAH!!!
Great point. Or, if we only had two, then how would they be able to jump rope together? Or, with 3, they can still ride a tandem bike even if one gets injured. Same with a 3-legged sack race.
by Curly Lambeau on Jul 22, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait a second you mean that Kuhn and Hall aren’t the same person or some sort of clone!? They can ride a tandem bike? I thought they had never been seen in the same place at the same time!
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Just because a guy’s a clone doesn’t mean he can’t ride a tandem bike. And they can put Q. Johnson in the sidecar.
by Curly Lambeau on Jul 23, 2010 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Still Baffled
I’m still a bit surprised that they took Johnson last year. I had the same confused reaction to Quarless this year, seeing as how Finley should emerge as the starter.
"The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game. They just ran out of time." -Vince Lombardi
I understood the pick to a degree. Both Kuhn and Hall are pretty average players. They don’t really do a whole lot for Grant in terms of lead blocking. Johnson’s a big, strong dude with some ok foot speed. He’s got the potential to be a good lead blocker. At the same time though, he didn’t even really get any playing time, even when either Kuhn or Hall were hurt for a period of time. Maybe they just wanted to give him some more time to develop.
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Sometimes it's a good idea to draft where you are deep
This seems a bit on the backwards side, but it’s rather true. It’s a key way to remain young and talented. The idea is that you have a guy who is a high character and high talented leader. Then you draft some raw talent that you can mold into the position. It keeps the team fresh. This is especially true if the position is one that can take on lots of wear and tear or is a key to the team.
For example, the Packers drafting Jordy Nelson. Not exactly a high need at the time, but guys like DD and Jennings you know that there is good leadership and it’s tough to have too many WR’s.
The Quarless pick to me screams of this. Lee is there to be able to continue to mentor while Finely grows up and comes into his own. At the same time Quarless can grow into the position as well. If it pans out then you have a dynamic one two punch at TE which can fuel a WCO. If it doesn’t pan out it’s a fifth round pick. Perhaps a bit pricey, but nothing that will set back a franchise.
As for Johnson, as PAD said, Kuhn and Hall are average players and pretty much interchangeable parts. Taking a chance on a bruising fullback who can open up some extra holes in the running game is a good risk if it means losing one of them. Too bad the FO didn’t have a stones to part ways with one of them last year.
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions
TT's Draft Philosophy
as I understand it is to NOT draft for need, per se, but to draft the best player on the board. He feels that you never know what injuries will happen to whom and when. So, the deeper the roster at any position, the better. I see some needs mixed in with the picks, like Bulaga – but you could also argue that he was the best guy available at that slot. I see him trading up for needs – like Clay Matthews or even Burnett.
Where it burned us last year was the lack of depth in the secondary and OL due to too many injuries. Jarret Bush is strictly a special teams player. It’s not his fault he was asked to do more than he’s capable.
drafting
He drafts BPA to fit the schemes the Packers play. Its pretty scheme specific and all their scouting is done w/ the scheme in mind. Need is always a consideration especially when it comes to players w/ similar grades!
Regarding Matthews and Burnett. Thompson had Matthews rated as the 12th best player in the draft and considered using the #9 pick on him had Raji been gone! So trading up to get him at 26 represented tremendous value, even considering what he gave up for him. Don’t know where Burnett was rated by Thompson, but its safe to say he had him rated ALOT higher than #71…. Most ranking I saw had him in the 40’s or 50’s. Bulaga was also a steal at #23, he was expected to go around 10. The trades up and drafting of Bulaga represented getting terrific value as well as filling a need.
I have said it before
I like the “Falcon” package and formation. IMO it is good against teams with a strong front 4. ( like the Vikings). It was how Grant racked up all those yards in that snowy Seahawks game in 07. Yes, exotic passing formations are cool and nice, but sometimes I like watching a good ol’ smashmouth ground game. If you don’t have an Elite RB, the falcon package enables you to do that.
Unfortunately, our OL doesn’t always allow for us to play smashmouth football. I love that formation too though! We can be pretty dangerous out of it.
On a side note, I think when we see Buluga take over at LT and Lang at RT (assuming that’s where he ends up) we’ll be a much better running team. As much as I love Clifton and Tauscher, neither of them bring a whole lot to the table when it comes to run blocking anymore.
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 12:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Tru Dat.
IF Bulaga and Lang end up the OT the OL will be much improved in run blocking. But remember its still the pass blocking that will get them on the field! Rodgers has to be protected to keep the offense humming!
Yeah, I just am pretty confident in Lang’s pass blocking ability at RT, and am with Buluga too. I know he has short arms or whatever people want to say but he has great technique/footwork.
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Problem is both Bulaga and Lang, despite their potential, are light years behind Clifton and Tauscher in pass blocking. I’ll put up w/ less run blocking, at the expense of having the superior pass protectors on the field. It could be a good 2 years before Bulaga and Lang are close to Clifton and Tausch in that regard.
haha
It is like nobody gives Breno a chance anymore…..understandable though.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I do...
I still think and have for awile that Giacomini is the RT of the future. IMO, Lang is playing there cuz they don’t know for sure and they need to protect themselves. Giacomini was extremely raw coming out of Louisville. He only played one season at RT, so he had no experience to draw upon. I expect him to be the starter at RT in ’11 w/ Lang then moving to LG to replace Colledge who leaves in FA…
Write it down…
Breno vs. Lang
I’m one of the many that are still unsure as to who it will be, but I think it will be one of them. I haven’t seen Lang play OG at all, so any speculation that he’ll be a beast there is just that, speculation. I’d like to see him play both spots to determine where he is best. Breno is hyped, but hasn’t seen the field. Obviously the coaches see something in him that deems worthy of him holding onto a roster spot. I’m not ready to chalk up who our future RT is. Not yet.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
This is correct
Pass blocking is much more important from offensive tackles.
Actually
Tauscher hasn’t been a very good run blocker lately either. Almost as bad as Clifton… He used to be much better, but hasn’t been good for a couple years.
Yeah, I watched him from time to time last season and he wasn’t too good. Though that’s probably to be expected.
by packallday555 on Jul 26, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
He's all right
He’s no Pro Bowler, but he still gets the job done. Clifton’s forte has always been pass blocking.
On a good note
It’s good to see you guys again… Iv’e been busy this summer as Im sure everyone else has. I was known as "turd " last yr for a nick name. It is nice to still see the regulars on here… PAD , Trev, Jabooty, Stroh, PA et al…. hope everyone has had a good summer. My grandpa always told me about life going fast….. like a roll of toilet paper…. the lower on the roll you get ….the faster it goes… :) Can’t believe it is almost football season again!
How old are you?
Twenty-something? You don’t know what old is, young man.
You’ll know you are old when you are permanently grouchy. Like Strohman here. The guy is psychologically in his 80s.
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