Start: Woodson and Williams at Cornerback
by Brandon on Aug 5, 2010 10:01 AM CDT
in Green Bay Packers Analysis
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PrintWith CB Al Harris likely to miss the start of the 2010 season for the Green Bay Packers as he recovers from knee surgery, it seems certain that CB Charles Woodson and CB Tramon Williams will be the starting cornerbacks. But the nickelback is likely to receive just as much playing time as one of the starting LBs, so while technically not a starter, he's going to be on the field a lot. And it's far from determined who it will be.
Woodson. The returning starter, and reigning Defensive Player of the Year. Obviously a lock.
Williams. Over the last two seasons, he's started 19 regular season games, recorded 29 pass defenses, and 9 INTs. His only blemish is penalties, but the same can be said about Woodson. The Packers corners play an aggressive style.
And the nickelback is?
CB Brandon Underwood. From what I've read so far in practice, he's either the 3rd or 4th CB. Mike McCarthy has said he's one of the most improved players in the offseason (though that was before his June 5th incident and subsequent criminal investigation). He only showed glimpses of promise last season, so I'm looking forward to watching what he can do in 2010.
CB Pat Lee. After Woodson and Williams are finished with practice, the 2nd team is usually Lee and Underwood. It's hard to tell who's ahead in the battle between them. Lee was the Packers 2nd round draft choice in 2008, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy so far. He did look good when he filled in for Harris during the 2008 season.
CB Jarrett Bush. He must be the most hated player currently on the team. But he also finished last season as the nickelback. The good news for Packer fans is that he's clearly behind Underwood and Lee so far in practice.
And that might be it. I'm leaving off CB Josh Bell, CB Sam Shields, and CB D.J. Clark. Shields is a fan favorite, but the Packers added depth at safety by drafting S Morgan Burnett and moving S Will Blackmon over from corner, so now there are seven safeties currently on the roster. Not all of them will remain, but one of them might take a roster spot at the expense of a cornerback.
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I think it’ll be Underwood but as long as it’s not Bush I honestly don’t really care. Underwood showed some glimpses last season like you mentioned. He’s long, fast, and a capable tackler.
I think Lee could do a good enough job as well. He looked good when filling in for Harris, the problem is that was only like 5 games. We’ve just got to hope he can stay healthy.
Harris
Who says Harris is likely to start on PUP??? McCarthy said over the weekend that he is very hopeful that Harris will be ready for the start of the season! Said if you asked him 3 or 4 weeks ago, he would have said the PUP, but Harris made such excellent progress the past month that Harris might well be ready to start the season. He’s missing some time now, but I expect he is on Barnetts schedule. Not practice or play till 3rd preseason game, then be a part time player for a few weeks, before getting his job back!
That said, I voted for Woodson, Williams and Underwood. Last I hear Underwood had a slight edge over Lee heading into camp! Haven’t heard anything to the contrary yet so thats how I’m seeing it… Either way it’ll be much better than the way we ended last year w/ Bush and Bell.
Me and Stroh agree again.
I’m usually pessimistic about players returning from injury, but Al Harris is different. And those who say that his play is declining… I just… I mean… no, it isn’t. When healthy, he’s quite possibly the best lock-down guy we’ve got. Woodson’s a better all-around player, but Al disrupts receivers and denies the football better than just about anyone I can think of. His age is showing up in how he gets injured, but, other than that, I’ll believe that he’s declining when I see it, which I haven’t yet.
by Curly Lambeau on Aug 5, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
In fact, if anything, I think Al’s gotten better since the spleen. He’s more focused and disciplined. The guy’s on a mission.
by Curly Lambeau on Aug 5, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree
Although he’s better than Underwood and Lee, and heck, even Jarrett Bush, he was having issues in getting beat deep and often. In the past he seemed to match his penalties with good plays, but this past season didn’t seem to be the case. He kept our defense on field on critical 3rd down penalties. That’s only only flaw in him, and it comes with his game because he’s so aggressive. I just wish he can eliminate all the illegal contact penalties after 5 yards though. It’s uncalled for no matter how aggressive you are.
I’m hoping when he returns we put him in the slot though. I want Williams to get more time on the field to develop. I hope you’re right though, and I hope he proves me wrong! I really do.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Harris in the slot?
Your kidding right?!! I mean Harris is/was/has always been slow and lacking quickness… Thats about as ill-suited as you can get for the slot! Where quickness is a pre-requisite! Why do you think Woodson plays the slot? It puts him in the middle of the action, closer to the LOS and closer to the QB so he can use his playmaking skills!!! Harris needs to play OUTSIDE… I also wanna seem some stats to backup what you say about his penalties being equal to his plays… YOu say alot of things that don’t seem to make sense! Lets see you back it up for a change!
your right about the slot
Harris will get beat deep a few times he always has. He doesnt have the best speed and thats known. However, he is probably one of the best at pressing WRs. When he can play up on a guy and press him he throws off the timing and you dont see him getting beat deep then. Having him play the slot would rule out him pressing most of the time and like you said Stroh the slot has some of the quickest and most agile players that Harris simply has never been known to cover.
I got rediculed for saying the same thing a few weeks back...
Maybe i was a bit over enthusiastic about it but…Like i said man, Al Harris is tough…Its probably Williams job to lose right now i would agree, after looking a little deeper into it…But i am going to stick with what i have been saying all along…Harris comes back and gets his starting job back BUT I would expect that Harris rotates with Williams, particularly early in the season, so Harris doesn’t re injure himself…
Also...
I know that we have acknowledge that Woodson plays the slot…But remember that Al Harris was a Nickle Corner in Philly…granted that was when he was a lot younger…He could pull it off, but i agree..I wouldn’t want him in the slot…
That’s true, Woodson is at his best in the slot given his versatility in blitzing. So I got ridiculed on this one too, but there were good points brought up here, he is too slow. No, I don’t think I’m gonna be able to dig out a “source” in all his penalties matched up against his good plays. If one can kind that kind of source, props to you. Perhaps out of the base 3-4 we can play Williams on the outside. I just want to give Tramon Williams more playing time.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
...
@ Stro-I am aware of what nickle means brosif..But i was thinking that Harris was playing inside but i do believe your right with Vincent playing inside…And yea I agree with you Jabooty…Good points were brought up, so i took them into account…Tramon Williams is going to be the future over there and does need to get on the field, I agree…But when it comes down to it…I would rather have Harris in the game in the winding moments of any game…Ask Cutler, and ask Hassleback…(probably spelled that wrong)
He's on the PUP right now
He’s still not at practice, and he couldn’t even bend his knee a few months ago. That’s a long road to recover, and the start of the season will be only approx. 9 months after surgery. I expect Harris to return to the field at some point, but the start of the season is optimistic. Barnett’s knee was bad, but Harris had it much worse. I don’t see why they shouldn’t give him an extra 6 weeks to build up his strength.
True...
Just from what i heard MM say in a press conference I’m sure you watched as well…He was saying that Al has made great progress from where he was at that point…He also said that 3 weeks ago, he wasn’t as optimistic about it but the team doctors gave him a good report? …Personally, I think we should take the best route to ensure his health for the mid season minefield that we have scheduled…If that means him missing the first 6 games then so be it..
Have to ask...
Who are the 9% who voted for Bush? Fans of division rivals?
LOL
Love Al, but...
I have the utmost respect and admiration for Al, but with his age and this injury, he’s on the decline. I think the coaching staff needs to see more of #38 on the field prior to determining if he should receive a long term contract. He’s got upside, but still a lot to learn.
I recall reading what an athletic freak Lee was and loved it. But he has proven to be one of those sports cars that’s in the shop a lot. He, like Blackmon, has much to prove.
As I’ve mentioned previously, I don’t fault Bush for failing. He was being asked to do more than he’s capable due to injuries and attrition. The reason for that was the gamble with Lee on IR that failed miserably.
[Bush] was being asked to do more than he’s capable
If you’re referring to the times when he was asked to play football, then I agree. I mean, seeing as how he’s been a d-back for, what, four years now… I don’t think asking him to hold down the nickel spot for a couple games is asking too much. On his current learning curve, he should be rounding into an adequate player by about 2018.
by Curly Lambeau on Aug 5, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
special teams
are the only reason he’s on the team. That’s the only point I was trying to make. They don’t have him on there because he’s a corner or a safety, as he’s awful at it. I believe he’s last on the depth chart. TT gambled and lost on sending Lee to IR. If Lee were there, Bush would not have been playing corner.
by gern blanston on Aug 5, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
At the same time though, he’s not very good on special teams either. He really seems like a worthless player too me. I’m praying this is the year he is FINALLY cut.
by packallday555 on Aug 5, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep
I don’t have evidence, but I’d bet serious money he had more penalties than tackles on ST. I really do hate to be this critical of a guy (and Jarrett’s a great guy by all accounts), but he is worse than worthless on the field. There’s nothing he does well. If you need a guy to look good in pads or run up to a pile after the play’s over or commit a clip away from the ball… then he’s your man. Other than that… cut his ace.
by Curly Lambeau on Aug 5, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Is he a great guy?
I dont know anything about him as a person…And have no reason to say anything other than he is a good person…But yea you said it, on the field he is GOD AWFUL
another way to spin it
would be to suggest that a guy is only as good as he is. It’s McCarthy’s or Thompson’s fault for putting him in a position where he couldn’t succeed. Not everyone is going to be Charles. If he was THAT bad, he wouldn’t have been on the team at all.
by gern blanston on Aug 5, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with this. And like I said above, Jarrett is, I’m sure, just a sweetheart of a guy. But he just kills the team. Why is he on the roster?
by Curly Lambeau on Aug 5, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
The bigger question is
Will Burnett be able to step in day 1 as our starting strong safety, now that Atari Bigby is having ankle surgery and is out indefinitely?
Ugh I hope this kid is good.
High Hopes
I have seen a few of the training camp practices and it seems Pat Lee is a great Man Coverage defensive back as long as he doesn’t go against real speedy receivers like Jennings though Underwood seems to know exactly where to go in a Zone and both look decent. Burnett on the other hand looks dominant at this point though it seems he is often against more raw receivers and tight ends.
Burnett
Covers TE and lesser WR cuz he’s a SAFETY!!! THe CB are going to lock up on the best WR and that leaves the Safety to cover any WR left or primarily the TE… Other than that they should be playing their zone and protecting the deep stuff… Thats just how coverage works.
I havent seen any practices but..
When Burnett is covering the TE is he covering Finley? How is he doing against him? If he can cover Finley i think we will be pretty darn good.
On the side note about Burnett, Bigby was never a great coverage guy. So if Burnnet can cover even a little thats a plus. But Bigby did seem to gel the blitz packages with Dom. So that should be the bigger concern with Burnett is how is he doing with blitz packages.
good question
Thats a good question for all those in the GB area… If Burnett can cover Finley he should be able to cover most any TE… That said I Don’t think man coverage is a strength of Burnett’s. He seemed to make most of his INT’s in college playing zone and attacking the ball in the air! Can’t say I ever saw him in man coverage in any of the videos that I saw of him…
Cover Finley
I sure hope a rookie can’t cover Finley because he won’t be the player I’m expecting this season. I’m hoping Polamalu or Ed Reed in their prime couldn’t cover him. I’m as excited about Finley coming into this season probably more than anyone else on the roster
Yep...
Finley was a monster when he was out here in Austin too…When i saw we took him I was pumped…that’s right pumped lol…I agree that the blitz packages could be where Burnett needs to be concerned in regards to competing against Bigby…His only sack in his career i believe was his freshman year against Notre Dame…
nice spin on it yooper
as an offensive mindset i would hope no rookie could cover Finley
Bush...
Well, him at nickleback can’t be worse than when Ahmad Carroll started…right? I’d still die inside if it happened though.
I just threw up in my mouth after reading that
Ahmad Carroll? bleecch….I’m in therapy trying to forget his tenure here. Sherman sure was a great GM.
Seriously, though. I don’t see Bush making the team this year. Is he trade bait? Did the Titans try to sign him a while back? Our secondary, excluding safeties is about 6, right? That leaves Sir Charles, Williams, Underwood, Lee, Harris, and TBD. My guess is we trade special teamers Shields for Bush because of his blazing speed and potential. We know exactly what we have, or don’t have, with Bush.
by gern blanston on Aug 5, 2010 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd actually say none of those three lineups are particularly acceptable.
I will withhold my vote.
My 3 CB lineup: Woodson, Williams, and, to toss things up, Morgan Burnett as the nickel back. We need him to contribute defensively.
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
Fire KP! He forgot to turn off injuries in dynasty mode. - by Norsktroll on BlazersEdge
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 5, 2010 5:39 PM CDT reply actions
Does anyone know when Bigby is expected to return roughly?
They said indefinately, which I still don’t really know what means if that’s not the entire year.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
guess
My guess is he goes on the PUP and is able to play at the time he comes off it… Just depends on if his ankle is just a cleanup or something a little more! Cleanup shouldn’t sideline him much more that 4-6 weeks.
is it just me
or is anybody else worried about the corner situation. i’ll be honest, but i really diddn’t like any of the options given at the end of the post. i guess i’m just not sold on williams yet. he’s okay, but he kind of gets the job by default. meaning, harris’s injury and all the non-proven players behind him. does anyone believe if al wasn’t injured that williams would beat out harris for the starting job this year?
I'm not as worried...
But then again I’m more optimistic… YOu don’t seem to like anyone that isn’t a pro bowler it seems… LOL Look we have to see what Lee and Underwood can do, and I think they’ll be pretty good. I still think we’ll have to draft another CB next year, maybe even relatively high, but we should look at getting Woodson’s replacement soon.
I'm not worried, but I'm not content with what we have either
I think Williams still has room to grow and he’s reliable. However, he does need to cut down on the penalties and can do better in coverage. Just about any CB can get better in that aspect though. The lack of experience is troublesome after him. I agree, however, experience will pay off in the end. We have to be patient. If Lee and Underwood can at least be average this year, we’ll be fine. Last year I personally felt Underwood was slightly below average. However, with a year under his belt and another Training Camp under his belt, I along with most others here are expecting progression. As long as Bush isn’t on the field, I’m not worried!!!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
both of you make good points but, didnt answer Hermitcrab's question...?
I would like to hear what you 2 have to say..
question
I think Hermits question was retorical… But if you need an answer, no… Williams would not be challenging Harris for a starting job. Its kinda irrelavent, isn’t it… Harris WAS injured and that won’t change. THe NFL is littered w/ guys that were backups that only became starters due to someone else’s injury, only to take the job and run w/ it! Its the same as I’ve been saying about Jones and Nelson all year, except that Driver isn’t hurt. They need the opportunity!!! Well this is Williams’ opportunity.
I’m worried but not so much with Williams. He’s a pretty good cover guy, which is something we desperately need. He’s had 9 INTs over the past two seasons too, which is pretty good. He isn’t Al Harris but then again who is? Harris is a pro bowl corner, and probably one of the best ones this past decade. Williams won’t ever be a pro bowl/all pro type guy but not that many are. He’s done a solid job so far, and will probably continue to grow as he is only going into his 4th season.
Too answer your question though, no I don’t think he would have beaten Harris out this season.
by packallday555 on Aug 7, 2010 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions
When the coaches say he’s their most athletic corner you hope that you have a shot developing into a pro bowler. How many years was Harris in the league before he developed into a pro bowler.
True...
kinda reminds me of Nick Collins when he first came into his own…Athletic, just needs to find his way…
That’s probably a good point, and I probably shouldn’t say Williams won’t become a pro bowler. I had said that before I looked to see how long he’s been in the league. Seeing that he’ll only be going into his 4th season with us seems pretty promising. He’s improved pretty much every single season, and has stepped up and produced these past two seasons when Harris has went down.
by packallday555 on Aug 7, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Thats a Negative Hermitcrab
There is no way that i could see Tramon Williams legitimately taking Al Harris’s job from him this season had Harris not got hurt…I agree…He did get it by default and he is better than okay in my opinion…But he is not better than Harris at this point…IMO
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