How we match up against the NFC North.
by Jabooty on Aug 8, 2010 12:23 PM CDT
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Well, the offseason is finally drawing to a close. After months of heated debates in who we should draft, who we should sign, and who we should start, the season is right around the corner and football season is about to begin. Preseason officially kicks off today with Dallas and Cincinatti facing one another at the Hall of Fame Game. With that said, lets take a look at how we match up against our bitter rivals in the NFC North.
The Lions have made tremendous strides to improve a porous defense. They traded for former Packers DT Corey Williams. Most of us remember him as the man that grabbed 8 sacks in a single season, which is rather impressive for a DT in a 4-3 defense. However, after trading him to Cleveland, which runs a 3-4 defense, he quickly fell off the map. Once again, he will be returning to the 4-3 in Detroit and looking to forget about his days in Cleveland and play like he did in Green Bay. Ndamakong Suh was also recently signed and will be lining up next to Williams. Suh was considered the best DT in the draft this year and perhaps the best DT to enter the draft in the past decade! Anyone who watched him play at Nebraska knows how beastly he is. Whether or not he plays to that level in the NFL is to be determined. Last but not least, they signed free agent Kyle Vanden Bosch. He's not the player he used to be, but he still has a motor and veteran leadership that proves to be a tremendous asset for the young Detroit defense. He'll line up at RE with veteran DE Cliff Avril returning to play LE. This defensive line looks good on paper, but is definately not invincible. In a way, this defense reminds me of Indianapolis' defense. By that I mean they will frequently be in pass rush mode. Detroit doesn't have a true NT. A force that will be immovable. A body that will clog the line. This line will attack together in full pass rush mode, and they will get their sacks. That alone is an asset and flaw at the same time. If Green Bay can run the ball consistently, we will have no problem in handling this defense. By establishing the run, it will not only slow down the pass rush, but it will allow us to burn their terrible secondary with the playaction. I didn't see any noticeable changes in their offense. They added WR Nate Burleson to their group. He'll help, but is not a serious threat by any means. Their offense should be good, but not elite by any means.
Chicago also made several big moves to change their team. They signed an elite DE in Julius Peppers and signed 3rd down RB specialist Chester Taylor. However, they did lose both Ogunleye and Alex Brown. Tommie Harris and Brian Urlacher will be returning and are expected to be healthy. Peppers and Harris should be a formiddable force, when they put the effort in. If they are contained early, I expect them to dissapear from the game. I expect this defense to be decent overall, but not as intimidating as some may think. No major difference in their secondary, other than drafting Safety Major Wright in the 3rd Round. Their offense may or may not be better with the hiring of offensive guro Mike Martz. Martz is a genious behind an Air-Coryell style of offensive system. Expect the offense to utilize a lot of 3-4 WR sets with Greg Olsen as a WR and Manamaluena as the TE. In Martz's system, the TE usually acts as a blocker and does a delay pass route. He'll try to get Olsen involved as much as possible, and given they way Chicago used him in the past, I expect Olsen to line up as a WR if not on the line in 2 TE formations. Former 1st Round Pick Chris Williams was moved to the LT position from RT. That's all they did to shape up their porous OL. That added in with the fact that Martz system does tend to allow a lot of sacks will mean our defense should match up very well against Chicago's offense.
As for Minnesota, well, we all know Favre will probably return after Training Camp and before the season begins, so lets just take the assumption that he returns. If he does, Minnesota is our biggest threat to win the NFC North. The offense is complete with little holes, other than a decent but aging OL. Their defense should be about the same. No significant changes. I expect LE Rey Edwards to continue to improve, but Pat Williams is catching up in age. Their D wasn't as difficult to run against last year as opposed to previous years, so I expect Grant to be able to run against them. They signed CB Lito Sheppard who provides depth, but he was cut from the Jets because he didn't perform too well last year. Winfield is catching up in age, but he is still good. Overall the secondary will be about the same as last year. Not good, but not bad either. If Favre doesn't return, well, every Non-Viking fan knows this team is doomed. Yeah, Jackson and Guss went 10-6 in 2008. That was against a not so good Bears team and a not good Packers team where we went 6-10, and a winless sorry Lions. Jackson's confidence is probably worse. Even with Jackson though, this is still a good team overall. Who knows though, maybe Jackson did develop sitting on the bench and studying game film.
With all that said, I am optimistic about this season. Our defense has its own question marks regarding the pass rush and secondary, so hopefully they play solid, develop, and the couple games we did get blown out in last year is a distant memory. Our Offensive Line should be fine with Clifton and Tauscher returning healthy. Bulaga will provide quality depth, and TJ Lang has a year under his belt. I expect our offense at its best under the Singleback Formation that features 3 WR's and 1 TE. Even 2 WR's and 2 TE's. This will allow us to effectively run the ball and set up the playaction, which will be dangerous with the quickly emerging star in TE Jermicheal Finley. Having 1 and 2 TE sets will help eliminate our opposing speed rushers in Jared Allen, Rey Edwards, Kyle Vanden Bosch, Cliff Avrill, and Julius Peppers (which is a little of both). The TE's will be able to chip at them each time they run their route. All in all, this should be a good season for us. Go Pack Go!
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Jared Allen ain't getting 7 sacks against us in 2010
Not with two healthy tackles this time.
by mike_o on Aug 8, 2010 4:12 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
LOL
unless Chad Clifton, Bryan Bulaga, TJ Lang, and Breno Giacomini are all injured in the game against Minnesota….If all of them are miraculously injured, then Jared Allen will be in luck! He’ll then get the fiest on Darryn Colledge again!!!!!!!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I ain't scared
I think the Lions will be the most improved team in the NFL but they had so far to go. When I looked at their offseason moves I think I counted 10 new starters that will be upgrades. The problem with them is several of their upgrades are at that 30 year old and over age. So not only will they have to plug weak players(ex. secondary, off. line) some of their improvements will be aging Vanden Bosch, Burleson, even Corey Williams must be near 30 plus. and have to be replaced as well. The way Thompson has built the team he should be able to keep up in the draft as players age. Hopefully pick up Woodson, Harris replacements in next draft or 2. Got Cliftons replacement this year. That being sais Detroit was so depleted they had no choice.
I think Detroit and Chicago will battle for 3rd place at around 8-8. You go over to the Windy City Gridiron you would come to believe all they were was one player away from a superbowl. NO. Peppers got his big contract he’s been known to take plays off they more than likely have a Albert Haynesworth on their hands. Urlacher was not near the player he was 3 years ago even before the injury(he was awesome I remember a couple games he just took over.) Every year I hear and when Tommie Harris returns to form, wake up it has been four, five years his quickness is gone which made him special. The secondary sucks from what I hear when we moved up and took Burnett that is the player Chicago had targeted I can see why. I think we got a player their.
Now offense, as if Cutler didn’t throw enough interceptions last year, Martz pass routes take forever to develop. I didn’t understand this move it goes against what made Chicago good a couple years ago during their Super Bowl run. Take the ball away and don’t turn the ball over. Chicago is going to be a turnover machine. That offensive line is weak putting Williams at LT for Pace helped but they needed more help than that they needed help here in the offseason and didn’t get it. We thought Rogers was sacked a lot Cutler better have his rib protection on. They were already phasing Taylor out in 3rd down situations in Minnie last year so
I don’t see a huge help here. People in Chicago seem to think they have a elite reciever corps but the experts seem to rank them near the bottom of the league I see potential here, but not elite. They should put Hester back on special teams where he was a difference maker.Again they will fight it ot with Detroit at around 8-8. On a side note her I see a Lovie Martz circus. Lovie needs to be in the spotlight the biggest mistake he made was getting rid of D coordinator Riveria. He took to much spotlight off Lovie with all the success they were having.
Minnesota, Farve coming back not coming back I don’t care If Farve is the man he has beaten father time about 2-3 years to long and it will catch up in a big way this season. His season lasr year made Rice, Berrian, Harvin and Vishancoe look elite especially the tight end Farve always had a way of finding the TE near the end zone. People in Minnie are scared of Rice’s hip that would be a huge,huge blow. That offensive line made Adrian Peterson look like Ryan Grant not good. Not trying to cut Grant down but Peterson is special. The only way Gerhard helps is Adrianne going down it’s not like Peterson is overworked.
Defense take away Allen’s sacks against us and his season doesn’’t look so hot. Pat Williams and the Williams wall didn’t look so stellar age is catching up. Injuries and age in the secondary make this a pretty weak position.
I’m not scared of Minnesota. I still see a extremely talented team 10-6 to 11-5.
The Green Bay Packers I feel (maybe it is homerism but trying to be somewhat realistic) are going to be in the dance at the end. Rogers will be better and going to other SB Nation site this ain’t debatable they all know it to. After this season they will talk when talking tight end Finley will be in every conversation when talking about the leagues best. Driver hope age doesn’t start catching up but after the knee scopes he says he hasn’t felt like this in years but I expect Nelson to be a bigger factor. He looks fantastic and with Jones we are blessed with depth. Then the offensive line Clifton and Taushcher both look better than they have in a few years and we know have a backup behind each player. Happy days are here again.
Defense, wow anyone notice AJ last night obviously he’s been solid but if he could become a difference maker watch out. All are linebackers are solid wish we had a touch more depth outside. With Jenlins, Pickett and Raji how are teams going to run against us. Looks like we may have solid depth here also. Woodson, Williams not worried out of Harris, Underwood and Lee we should have the depth we didn’t have last year. I would really like Bigby back soon combined with Burnett and Collins I like this group.
Looks like we should have a punter. Out of the 2 we may have one with a big leg man I would like that we haven’t had a decent one since wolf screwed up and let Heintrich walk. Special teams has been a emphasis all offseason improvement here will be huge.
Finally the youngest team in the NFL the last few years has gained valuable experience I’m looking for great things from them this year with a long window of opportunity. I’m usually not long winded but there is a ton of things about each ream I didn’t touch on
by the yooper on Aug 8, 2010 6:22 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Nahh...
You go over to the Windy City Gridiron you would come to believe all they were was one player away from a superbowl
We don’t really believe it. We just crave the taste of orange and blue kool-aide.
"What I’m trying to say is that Lovie is an idiot. Let’s not forget this." --celerysalt, WCG commenter
And by the way, this is absolutely true:
Lovie needs to be in the spotlight the biggest mistake he made was getting rid of D coordinator Riveria.
IMHO, Lovie couldn’t stand strong opinions that were different from his. The increasing cries for his dismissal over the past 2 yrs are the only reason he tolerates Martz, Marinelli, and even Tice. It will be very interesting to see how he handles credit being publicly given to his assistance if Bears fortunes improve…
"What I’m trying to say is that Lovie is an idiot. Let’s not forget this." --celerysalt, WCG commenter
i meant "to his assistants", not "to his assistance"
"What I’m trying to say is that Lovie is an idiot. Let’s not forget this." --celerysalt, WCG commenter
Greetings from an ex-Michigander
Lived in the Detroit area for 35 yrs., but now live in the Philippines. I’m looking forward to football season and have big HOPES for the Pack. But, that said, I can’t quite generate the optimism you have. You DID watch the AZ game, right? Pittsburgh? Other than a 3rd round safety pick, we did nothing to improve. I have a feeling even when Harris gets back he won’t be the same. I guess I’m an “expect the worst and hope for the best” kinda guy.
GO PACK GO!!!!!!!!!!
Well, I now have a question for you!
You now live in the Philippines. Well, I will be going to South Korea for a year in October. How the heck do you watch football out there?! I need to know because I’m going to lose my mind without it!
To answer your question though, experience pays. You’ll see!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
NFL Gamepass
I’m from Germany, so I can give you the answer: you use NFL Gamepass:
https://gamepass.nfl.com/nflgp/secure/registerform
Its $280 for the regular season and you get all games live or on demand later. You also get NFL Network and seems like also the redzone channel (that was an extra package last year). Theres also an archive with all games from 2008 and 2009.
For the playoffs and the offseason, you have to pay extra, I think playoffs was like $70 and offseason $75.
Wher are you going in South Korea?
I spent a year out there at the Army base Camp Casey kinda near the DMZ…You might be able to go onto a military instilation and watch some games on AFN…But AFN isnt the greatest thing in the world brother….Also, if you like to party check out HONGDAE, its a party district in Seoul…I know the whole place by memory, so if you need any advice just ask bro…
I'll keep it in mind
It won’t be with the military though, so are civilians allowed in the camps? I’m going for work. Location is TBD
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I'm not sure exactly...
But i’m sure you could ask someone…couldnt tell you man. Yea like bigbill said, Pusan is off the chain also…
Yobo sayo, Jabooty
I lived here for 2 yrs. now, currently in Cebu. I’ve been to S. Korea a few times on business back in the 90s. Seoul, of course, and Ulsan and Pusan. It’s ok, I guess. I watch the Pack on the internet. CHANNELSURFING.NET. You can also use JUSTINTV. You can also buy the NFL Ticket for online. The 12 noon and 1pm and 4pm games are a bit*h, tho. The time difference sucks. But, hey, gotta do what you gotta do, right? I’m retired, so it’s a little easier for me.
by bigbill992001 on Aug 9, 2010 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I watch most of the Pack games that aren’t be shown in Minnesota on channelsurfing.net and atdhe.net. They both always are pretty reliable.
by packallday555 on Aug 9, 2010 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions
another option
is myp2p.eu
For the games that aren’t broadcast in Philly results are usually the same as channelsurfing.net and justin.tv though.
Lee didn’t play and Underwood was extremely raw, Mccarthy feels Underwood is the most inproved player.Pressure will come from up the middle this year which will help everyone(QB won’t be able to step up in the pocket. 2nd year in the defense will be huge they weren’t prepared for the bunch formations Pittsburdg and Arizona threw at us. That should be corrected and I’m confident if our defense fails us a game or two which happens to the best of defenses our offense will win those shootouts for us
Good points. The defense really should be better this next season. I think a common misconception among people is that if your pass defense struggles then it’s automatically on the Cb’s which really isn’t always the case. Our nickel and dime guys definitely weren’t very talented but neither of them, barring any injuries should be out on the field this season at those positions.
Too me, the bigger problem was our pass rush and coverage in the middle of the field. We needed more pass rush up the middle, so we moved Raji to NT. That should help get more push, which should in turn help the secondary out. Hopefully Jones will be improved a bit too, and maybe Chillar will provide a nice change up at OLB from time to time as well.
by packallday555 on Aug 9, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I liked Jones in the Scrimmage
It’s only a Srimmage, but I liked him out of the bunch. He showed the ability to bull rush though, which was more of an ability over anyone else pass rushing from the outside other than Mathews. We’ll see if that continues through Preseason though. I think Jones got a light switch turned on after he knew he was in for some competition.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Wouldn’t surprise me. Between putting on weight in the offseason and having to fight to earn his spot you’d hope that he’d be improved.
by packallday555 on Aug 9, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Good Read... Very neutral assessment...
Might I just add one player to Detroit’s D-Line…. Sammie Hill.
This kid was a raw 4th round rookie last year and show’d promise…
This kid should impress this year in the run defense as he’s sitting around 330lbs, and is starting to learn how to use it.
I knew they were planning on using him for a rotation. I had no idea he was up to 330 lbs though. Did he gain weight in the offseason? I thought he weighed a lot less than that.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Hill is up to 330
most of it gained in the weight room. Hill never had a lifting program at his small college.
In life, a man is either the hammer or the anvil. Ndamukong Suh is both
Pride of Detroits village idiot
My thoughts on the division...
DETROIT: Love what they did in the off season. Vandenbosch is a great guy to have around Suh for his earlier years. As a Packer fan, I hope Suh doesn’t listen to a thing he says but V is a quality guy that should have a good impact on the rook. Williams is a wild card. He could rebound to his Packer playing days but I don’t know if he has it in him…he’s kind of a quitter I think. Their offense should continue to improve as STafford, Calvin and Burleson continue to work together and then you throw in their rookie RB and this could be a dangerous team. I don’t see them being better than say 8-8 but that is a HUGE improvement and it means we need to start to take them seriously from here out!
CHICAGO: I think this is the year the lions pass them. I actually like the Martz hire (in theory) though I am not 100% that it will work but its an aggressive, high risk move which is what they needed to do. The team is getting old (and injury prone) on D and they put everything into FAs which typically doesn’t work out (right Washington?). I don’t think their offense has the right kind of weapons to make Martz’ system work and I don’t think their guys can stay healthy enough on D.
MINNESOTA: Obviously this is basically the same team last year as they were this year. They are clearly going to be our biggest roadblock to winning the division. They are a veteran team that has been in big games. We HAVE to beat them at least one of two this year if we want to be in the running for the division. They are the team to beat in the division and maybe the conference so until we can beat them, they are better. Losing Chester will hurt them a little more than they want to admit, but maybe a little less than we all want to think! CB could still be their weak point. Griffin is still recovering and Winfield might be in the same boat we are going to experience with Harris. They brought in Sheppard, but I don’t think he’ll pick up the slack as much as they hope…he’s a band-aid (one of those band-aids with Dora the Explorer or something like that on it).
I think we have a very good chance to win the division but its starting to become a strong division with the lions finally looking respectable. No division game will be a gimme this year…if we win the division, we’ll have really earned it!
Losing Chester
I don’t think losing Chester is as big of a deal as many Packer fans make it out to be I thought he was largely phased out on 3rd down last year as Peterson stayed in more I thought. I thought he was brought in more for a breather or punishment for a Adrian fumble.
Chester is one of the better 3rd Down backs in the league
so i must disagree.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Taylor
I think Taylor is one of the few RB who can split out and be a productive reciever. He’s very good catching passes out of the backfield, but the ability to line up like a WR helps alot too… IMO, that makes him a valuable player, who I think the vikes will miss!
Yeah, how many times did Favre simply just dump one off underneath to Taylor on 3rd and 7+ for a first down? He’s also really shifty after the catch. I think losing him will hurt them.
by packallday555 on Aug 9, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I just didn't see it last year
I just didn’t see it last year and I pay close attention because I’ve had Peterson on my fantasy team 3 years in a row(got him as a 7th rounder his rookie season). I don’t know if it was age or you don’t take the ball out of your best players hands. All I stated that Chester was phased out somewhat last year and losing him won’t affect the Vikings as much as some of us Packer fans make it out to be.
He was phased out to a degree but he was still out there on 3rd downs much more then AP. AP still doesn’t block very well, which is obviously a problem. Gerhart as a rookie likely won’t block well. Moats can block but doesn’t have that same ability that AP and Taylor to after the catch. Taylor was a complete 3rd down back, whoever replaces him will not be.
by packallday555 on Aug 9, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I looked their stats up
Taylors catches went from 44 to43 not much change. Carries 101 to 93 again not much difference. What I must have noticed was petersons catches more than doubled 21 to 43 but his yards almost quadrupled 125 to 443.
Peterson's Catches
They doubled because after Favre got on a roll, the Vikings became a pass first team. They originally entered the season thinking it would be a run oriented offense not having Favre do too much. It turned out Favre carried that offense and team. They operated out of the shotgun more often than you’d think, almost as often as Rodgers did for Green Bay. However, Taylor was there on the majority of 3rd Downs. Yeah, he was definately phased out to a degree, but he was still a very good 3rd down back. I don’t think losing Taylor was a devastating loss, but it will be noticeable.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Yeah, Peterson had a lot more 1st and 2nd down catches last season then he normally does because of Favre. He was out there a bit more on 3rd down as well but he still didn’t look comfortable helping when there was penetration.
If Peterson still can’t efficiently pick up the blitz that could hurt them on 3rd down or in obvious passing situations. Their OL hasn’t ever been very good at picking up the blitzes and now they won’t have Taylor back there to help them out when that happens, which he did a pretty good job doing for them.
by packallday555 on Aug 9, 2010 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions
hope I'm wrong
Well, I hope I’m wrong and that he was a important component to their 3rd down offense last year that would be helpful to our cause.
In 2008 he had 101 carries, last year 94. He had almost identical catches (45 and 44) so really there wasn’t much of a phasing out at all last year. He is a much better blocker (even with AP improving in that area) so he was still out there a LOT on third downs.
but like I said in my post...
Losing Chester will hurt them a little more than they want to admit, but maybe a little less than we all want to think!
Toby Gerhart
Is not going to last long in the NFC North from what i’m hearing. He is slow and doesnt have any wiggle, no change in direction…Nothing, He has to play against Brian Urlacher and Lance Briggs twice a year and Nick Barnett and Cullen Jenkins twice a year…These guys are going to steal his lunch money if he tries to run heads up every time he gets the ball…
by SpaceGhost34 on Aug 10, 2010 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
I’ve always said Gerhart is only a big power RB. He was great in college cuz he was bigger and faster than all the LB trying to tackle him! THat won’t be the case in the NFL.
That’s probably a pretty darn good comparison!
by packallday555 on Aug 10, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Dayne
Ron Dayne wasn’t even a power RB!!! LOL He ran behind some ot the best OL in college football. Did you ever see him run w/ power in the NFL? Even at UW, he ran entirely too soft for me… At his size he should have dominted physically, instead he relied on his OL to open alot of holes for him! Dayne was just big, but never very powerful.
Yea...
Dayne was a powerful back at Wisconsin…I’ve never even been to Wisconsin and I knew that brother…He was 1 dementional…Power, that was it…
by SpaceGhost34 on Aug 10, 2010 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Did you ever see him run w/ power in the NFL?
ahhh——that was the point, comparing gerhart and dayne.just cause you were good in college —that, doesn’t always translate to the nfl (hawk)
if you don’t think dayne was a power back in college, than you must have eyesight like ray charles or ronny milsap.
I think I get your point but I think you were off a little. Ron Dayne WANTED to be a finesse runner which is why he failed so royally in the pros. He had the build to be an amazing bruiser but in his head he wanted to be Tiki Barber. If he would have realized his potential in being a power back and focused on it, maybe things would have been different.
Here are some clips of his days in WI, he was straight up and down the field though it wasn’t always up the middle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS5F_mnFVw0
He had enough speed in college to still get to the edges which is what made him think that he could be “elusive” in the pros, it was all a pipedream though and rather than changing his style to fit his abilities he just kept trying to fit a round object into a square hole.
Notice
That in that video he NEVER physically dominated an opponent! All the long runs were easy for him and he was never touched until he was in the secondary. The OL was terrific and blew people off the LOS allowing Dayne to pick a hole, usually a LARGE one.
He did have very good change of direction ability for a man his size. Problem became that in the NFL he tried to rely on that instead of his best asset… His size and the power he could bring had he chosen to use it!
I think part of the reason you don’t see that is that none of those plays turned into big highlights. But yeah, a lot of his success was due to the amazing line and the system there moreso than his talent or running style.
Highlite plays
Daynes highlite plays on the video (thats what it was a Highlite video) were when he had a wide open field and didn’t get touched till the secondary! I watched alot of Dayne and don’t remember him really breaking alot of tackles then turning them into big plays. Isn’t that what makes a great RB? He was great at UW cuz he had a great OL…
Detroit
You forgot a few things in your Lions assessment.
Yes, they added Burleson, but you forgot to mention RB Jahvid Best and TE Tony Scheffler. We finally have a running threat by commitee with Best and Smith. Scheffler and Pettigrew will open up the middle. Can’t just triple-team CJ and call it a day. The offense has the potential to be great this season. Of course, we first have to see it to believe it.
The defense is still a work in progress with alot of holes and question marks. We’ll probably lose both games to the Pack this year, but at least the game shouldn’t be over by the start of the 2nd qtr.
In life, a man is either the hammer or the anvil. Ndamukong Suh is both
Pride of Detroits village idiot
Didn’t necessarily forget about it, just didn’t mention it. The offense was already good, but now they added in more weapons. I’m not sure overall if it will be a huge significance though because the OL there is the weak link. If Grosder Cherilus develops and they can get their LT of the future in next years draft, I think they’ll be a force. They are definately on the right path. No doubt about that.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Future LT
I think drafting Jason Fox in the 4th rd this past draft and developing him is the plan. I hope it works out so the Lions can concentrate on defense in the upcoming draft.
The weakest link on the OL for the past decade was LG. Hopefully Rob Sims can solidify that spot. Sims was quite studly in Seattle but doesn’t fix Carrols new zone-scheme. Their loss is hopefully going to be the Lions gain.
In life, a man is either the hammer or the anvil. Ndamukong Suh is both
Pride of Detroits village idiot
doesn't *FIT Carrols new scheme...
In life, a man is either the hammer or the anvil. Ndamukong Suh is both
Pride of Detroits village idiot
And Jeff Backus
I know Schwartz likes him, but he’s way past his prime! I can see Detroit using their first round pick on a LT next year and moving Backus to LG. They could intend to develop Fox, but that’s the most important position on the OL. You have to make sure the LT is a beast especially in the NFC North featuring: Clay Mathews, Jared Allen, Julius Peppers, and even your own Kyle Vanden Bosch. If anything, Fox could be groomed for RT. Grosder Cherilus has not played up to his draft stock by any means to this point. He does seem to be prone to penalties. I wouldn’t be surprised if Fox is groomed and eventually takes the RT position as Detroit parts ways with Cherilus. Then again, Cherilus may still get better. He is after all a former 1st Round Pick. I wasn’t too impressed with Fox in college though. He played at Miami, right? If so, I have seen him play before.
I’m not too familiar with Rob Sims. Therefore, I can’t accurately predict anything on what he brings to Detroit. I just know that Seattle’s OL has struggled mightily since they let LG Steve Hutchinson hit free agency.
It’s all about the OL though. Everything else is in place on that offense. Kind of ticks me off because it’s no longer an easy ‘W’. It goes to show though that Detroit is on the right path to success with Schwartz as your Head Coach. I’m impressed with what he has done there thus far. Who knows, maybe Stafford can work through that OL and hit all his weapons. Rodgers managed to do it last year!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Didn't forget
I didn’t forget in my assessment of Detroit those are all significant additions I knew I was going to be long winded. I like what Detroit did and feel they maybe the most improved team in the NFL but the record may not show it. Your schedule is killer The Pack and Vikings twice Jets , Miami, Patriots, Dallas Phiadelphia and the Giants and Redskins could be back to being decent teams. It’s going to be a interesting season Chicago has a chance if thet gel but I doubt it.
Defensive Backfield
All the talk about the Lions is about upgrading the defensive line. What’s overlooked is that the secondary and pass defense has not been merely bad, but historically bad the past two seasons. Who cares is the Lions stuff the run when the opponents’ QBs are tossing 350 yards and 4 TDs each week?
Well, improving the DL will improve their pass defense. Just look at the Vikings. Aside from Winfield, who is and has been a 3rd tier coverage guy, they have basically had a secondary full of average to below average guys. It just doesn’t show because Allen and the Williamses’ create what’s probably the best pass rush in the league.
by packallday555 on Aug 11, 2010 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not that worried about Minnesota (With or without Favre)
I think they’re in for a letdown after last year. Favre will be 41 in October, he’s coming off ankle surgery, and more than likely he won’t report until near the beginning of the season. I know what he did last year but teams will be gunning for him like New Orleans and something has to give, right? Unless of course, he’s been taking some of the Williams’ supplements.
Yeah, it’d be hard for him to play at that same level this season, and that’s not a knock on him at all. Plus, Rice’s lingering hip injury which was supposed to have been better a month or two ago has to be of concern. Apparently Harvin is struggling with migraines again right now too, like he did at end of last season. If either one of those two things turn out being a problem for those guys that offense won’t be as good.
by packallday555 on Aug 9, 2010 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
change the topic a bit
who’s the only qb in the history of the nfl to start his career with 2 300 yard games as a qb? coincidently, he only has 2 starts in his career.
do—do—do—-do—————do-do—-do—-do———-do——————do-do-do———do———do———-do
(jeopardy music)
the answer is————————kevin kolb, the packs week one opposing qb.
i just thought that was an interesting stat. continue discussing the above post.
true...
But those two games were against two WEAK pass defenses. The horrible Saints D and just the horrible Chiefs.
I mean he looked like a stud out there but he saw tougher defenses in College lets be honest now. I still think he will be shaky and throw at least THREE picks in the 1st game vs. the Packers
by greenbay packers backer on Aug 10, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Freeman
The rookie that made our secondary look like childs play in Tampa Bay last year…God i hate the Buc’s….
by SpaceGhost34 on Aug 10, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
haha yeah he did look pretty good when he came in. Its partially his skill and partially the teams he was playing. He saved my butt in FF last year when I had some questionable options at QB so I kept a close eye on him. I liked what I saw but its one thing to jump in and do well, its another to give a team time to scheme against you. We have game footage of him now which should change things up!
He'll do well for sure
He is still a rookie though. However, you are quick to point out that we cannot underestimate him. His story in the NFL is very similar to Aaron Rodgers. Yikes! We have to play against Aaron Rodgers V. 2.0? Hopefully we’re ready and we take him and the Eagles seriously because we ALWAYS have trouble against Philadelphia.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
yea...
It wasnt until opening game in 2007 when i can remember we actually beat those bastards…Then i was like, “maybe this will be a good season” LMAO…Nobody saw us coming that year and this game week 1 is going to be huge to set the tempo in the NFC…If we come out and beat the Eagles and then the Bills, that will give us great momentum to go into Soldier field…
by SpaceGhost34 on Aug 10, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
It is extremely critical to get off to a fast start
Our schedule is a lot easier in the first half as opposed to the second half. It’s still more important to finish strong, but we need to put ourselves in the best position to win in the playoffs. I think Hermit just wanted to point out that we can’t be overconfident because we are facing a young inexperienced QB. That whole deal kind of backfired against the winless Bucs last year, ya know? God, that was so f-ing embarrasing!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Turning point
It also turned out to be the turning point in the season!!! What would have happened if they had beaten TB in that game? We could have missed the playoffs and not gone 7-1 down the stretch. While it sucked at the time, I think it proved to be the wake up call we needed at the time. Losing that game helped us in the long run alot more than it hurt at the time.
by Strohman on Aug 10, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is another way to look at it
There were a lot of factors that contributed to our success in the 2nd half of last season though. Losing Kampman hurt our Nickel/ Dime Defense, but it forced Capers to be a little more unpredictable and explore other options. Through that, Clay was not just a beast in making open field tackles, but he could sack the QB and really apply pressure. The OL being healthy was the biggest factor though. It’s a lot easier to pass the ball when you eliminate the revolving door on the right side of the OL. LOL!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
by Jabooty on Aug 10, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
agree
the BIGGEST factor was getting the o-line in tack—-meaning a healthy clifton and resigning of tauscher——-they kept rodgers verticle for the rest of the year and rodgers didn’t have to worry about barbre’s, lang’s or colledge’s “look-out blocks”
Yeah it certainly was a turning point...and a low point!
But I think if we would have eeked out the win, we still would have learned a lot from that awful game!
Human nature
Its human nature to really only learn from losses. Few people/teams ever learn in victory… Same applies to a team. If you win you move directly forward to the next game. BUT if you lose it forces you to re-examine what your doing! Especially a loss against such an over-matched opponent…
tks booty
you understood the premise of my post————-sweet. (not sarcasm)
most posters totally miss it and try to start an argument. well done sir.
I'm surprisingly not scared of Kolb
I remember being at the opening game of Rodgers’s career. He was pretty good, but we needed a T-Jack screw up to seal the game away. I mostly remember that because I remember telling Viking fans on the way out that they should of gotten a QB for their team in the offseason. Little did I know…
Anyways, my point is that Kolb is going to need a bit of time to get adjusted and the Packers of this year are better than the Vikings of 08. I think we can handle him.
Finally, lest we forget, that the Eagle fans are very quick tempered. If the D can make some kind of early showing the crowd could quickly turn and help us rattle the young QB. It’s not a guarantee, but it’s something that could help us when the time arises.
by PackApologist on Aug 10, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Your music was a little off...
do do do do, do do dooooo, do do do do DO dododododo, do do do do do do dooooo DO dodo do do….do…doooo bum bum
:-D
Our D against their
3rd time starting QB, I like our odds. As long as our offence can score against their pretty good D. A win combined with a Viking loss would be a good start to the season. GO PACK GO!!!!!
actually
imo——the philly defense maybe their demise this year. they have weapons on offense(maclin, jackson, celek and the poor mans westbrook) their defense has taken a step back.
but i’m interested in seeing how brandon graham looks like in game action.
Their addition of Darryl Tapp will help their D though
I’m expecting Philly to have a decent pass rush. The linebackers and secondary are nothing special though. It’s still a very aggressive D, but they can be lit up.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Lets face it...
Like it has been mentioned, the Philly fans wont be too pleased after Kolb throws 2 Int’s in the first half…He has thrown for 300 yards in both his starts…big F***in deal…I want him to throw for 300 against us in a win…Not going to happen, our secondary is going to pick this guy apart, Capers is going to have a field day in Week 1….Im not saying that Philly doesnt play us like Chicago does BUT…Lets realize that we still had the 2nd best Defense and 1st best in takeaways last season and Kolb is just now taking his team over…
by SpaceGhost34 on Aug 10, 2010 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I like the optimism
But I’m taking Philly more seriously. I’m hearing the same doubts out of you on Kolb as everyone else had on Rodgers in 2008. Point is, anything can happen. What is proven, is the fact that Kolb is capable of throwing for 300 yards. Week 1 is not a Gimme by any means! You know, like Tampa Bay was last year….. We have a team that is more than capable of beating Philly because we match up well, but we still have a lot of preparation to do in order to do it. Our team is not set yet. Still a few question marks in the secondary and OLB position.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Isn't Kolb the same as Rodgers?
I certainly understood why GB would hand over leadership of a team to a young, talented quarterback of the future. Isn’t trading off a Hall of Fame QB and turning a team over to Kolb saying the same thing? If he is talented enough to replace McNabb then I would take him seriously.
I think it will benefit the North division this year that Kolb is inexperienced. But I always worry about a team as talented as Philly. I think Philly is a little suspect on defense. But if their offense cranks it up they could be tough for everyone.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think it’s pretty much the exact same as Rodgers. He’s looked good in his brief appearances too, just like Rodgers had for us before taking over.
by packallday555 on Aug 11, 2010 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Vikings analysis is a little off
The Vikings had two obvious weaknesses last year. The O-Line did not do a good job of run blocking and the secondary intercepted few passes.
O-Line: With two new starters last year it is hard to really say the O-Line is aging. A couple of the players are very experienced but none are ready for retirement. It does appear that nagging injuries were a problem to McKinnie and Hutchinson. The Vikings front office was so convinced that the injuries would heal that they did not draft or use the free agent market to shore up the O-Line. Although many Viking fans have debated the reasons for the O-Line problems ( many fans think the players need to be replaced) it is obvious that management likes this line. I have to believe that the O-Line will be better this year with everybody returning and healthy.
Secondary: Every team has its issues and the Vikings secondary has been an issue. Some believe it is the Tampa 2 style zone defense scheme. Some think the players are just not very good. Obviously the injuries to our best CBs were not helpful. The drafting of rookie corner Chris Cook looks like it will pay dividends this year. Asher Allen is a second year player that looks to have improved. Winfield looks to be recovered 100% from the foot injury. Griffen is recovering from his injury and Lito Sheppard has looked adequate for a temporary fill in for him. The safety play of the Vikings must improve for the secondary to get better.
I see no negative changes from the 2009 season this year. I suspect the secondary will still be the weakest link in the Vikings armor. However I believe the armor is pretty thick.
The entire division is strong on the defensive fronts this year. I think the winner of the division will be the team with the best O-Line. In my opinion the best and most experienced O-Line in the division is the Vikings.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
vikes
McKinnie and Hutch are getting very near the age when the play drops off quickly. And the nagging injuries are usually the first sign that it is starting. Its exactly what started w/ Clifiton, thats why Packer fans can see the end is nearing for McKinnie and Hutch.
In the secondary, young CB get picked on big time, until they prove that they can handle it! I wouldn’t count on Cook to be any more than a sieve this season! Its just how it is in the NFL. Counting on a rookie and 2nd year CB in Allen is just asking for alot of problems. If they are playing limited roles it can work, but you better not count on them to be front line players or they will get BURNED!!!
Yeah, McKinnie is going on 31 and Hutchinson 33. When the nagging injuries start that usually is a sign that the guy may be declining and like you mentioned, we’ve seen that ourselves with Clifton and really with Tauscher too. I could see Hutchinson maybe working his way back to the player he used to be this season but I don’t really see McKinnie doing it. It’s pretty much known league wide that the guy has next to no work ethic. I think his decline is going to continue this coming season.
LLV- I think a lot of your OL play will depend on the development of Sullivan and Loadholt. For me, Sullivan wasn’t very impressive. He did ok pass blocking but got pushed around far too much against the run. In my opinion, the struggles of Sullivan and Herrea were the primary reason Peterson had a tougher time this past season. Herrea likely won’t improve at all as hes 30, and I personally don’t think Sullivan has the leverage to make up for his lack of size.
Also, I don’t think there’s much of a difference as far as experience goes on our OL’s. Your two young guys even out the experience factor.
You added guys in the secondary but there is no guarantee that Winfield or Sheppard will step up this season, Sheppard especially. You could say the pass rush you guys generate will help him but at the same time, the pass rush for him in Philly and NY was more then ok. I just think he’s begun to decline in play. I don’t think Winfield will ever get back to what he was once either. Cb’s declines often began with foot injuries, which happened to Winfield last season.
Reports were initially that he was supposed to only be out for a month. It ended up being 2 months, and when I listened to an interview on KFAN his explanation as to why that was, was because he didn’t want to come back until he was 100%. And when he did finally come back he struggled. It seemed like he couldn’t handle anything more then the role of nickel back. Now maybe he’ll just need an offseason to get back to 100% but at 33, I really don’t see it happening.
Even Griffin probably won’t be back to 100% this season as it often takes 2 years to fully recover from an ACL injury. And honestly, even before his injury Griffin was nothing more then average in coverage. I’m not sure how much you guys can expect out of him.
Young guys are always a risk too. Allen has shown potential but that still doesn’t change the fact that he got abused last season in the time he saw. He probably wouldn’t be able to handle anything more then a nickel or dime role, which is what I’d say about Cook too.
You didn’t mention Sapp though, who I think is a serviceable #2 starter. He’d be better if he could limit the penalties too.
by packallday555 on Aug 11, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I understand your position
But so does the Viking management. They know the score concerning the O-Line. Hutch says he played with one and a half arms last year. The only guys not injured last year were the two new guys. I expect significant improvement from the center ( Sullivan) and Tackle (Loadholt). If either did not have the talent to improve then their replacements would have been drafted or hired. It is pretty obvious the Vikings are in a win now mode.
But I have had this same discussion with Vike fans since last April. If I, and the Vikes front office, are wrong about the O-Line then the Vikes will suffer some losses. But if I’m right then the run game and pass protection will be better this year.
HERE is an article I wrote saying the same thing back in June.
I don’t disagree about the secondary. It is the weakest part of the Vikes team. I hope that the young blood is as talented as will be needed this year.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I had read basically the same thing regarding Hutchinson, and for that reason I do think it’s more likely he’ll be closer to his old form.
I think Loadholt will improve a ton, and be a great RT for you guys for years to come. I’m just not convinced on Sullivan. I think he’ll continue to struggle against the bigger DT’s/NT’s in the league. Maybe he’ll prove me wrong though.
From what I’ve read about Cook, he seems to have all the ability. His size, and speed is certainly intriguing. It’ll be interesting to see how he performs in the preseason.
by packallday555 on Aug 11, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Sullivan is so different than Birk.
It is hard for him to get much credit fighting the mystic of Birk. But he was drafted in the 5th round and surprised everyone that he made the team. He was talented enough that the Vikes didn’t chase Birk with tons of cash. Now he has been the starting center in his 2nd year.
I think when his teammates start playing healthy the timing of the zone blocking scheme will be there and everyone will think he bloomed like a spring flower.
As you point out. All Vike fans will be watching the secondary Saturday night.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Your team really didn’t have a chance to “hire” a replacement though due to the new rules this year. So even if they were concerned they drafted too low to get a sure thing and couldn’t get one as a FA so they were pretty much stuck with what they had. That is the problem with being a Vet team like yours, you start running into limitations (draft position, salary cap, etc) which is intentional to let other teams catchup.
I don't disagree Strohman.
But 30 is not the magic age for retirement of an O-Lineman. The position seems to hold more longevity than other positions. My point was that the Viking management team ( which has been pretty effective) trusts those linemen. If they believe in them then so do I.
The secondary is the question mark. But that same question mark was one play from the super bowl last year so I’m not as concerned as others. But it is a valid weakness as of now.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Age?
I didn’t say anything in regards to age except that injuries, especially nagging ones, tend to be the first indicator of decline! I didn’t know the specific ages nor do I care, but they are at the point where nagging injuries start to seriously affect play. Faneca is 33 too. And he fell off the map w/ NYJ last season and is playing out the string in AZ. I expect Hutch to show more signs of breaking down and his play to continue to suffer!
Also OT are generally the ones that last a little longer… They play more in space and its less physical at OT than it is at OG and C. I would be very worried if I were you that Hutch and McKinnie are nearing the end. McKInnie could last another couple years but as noted his work ethic and training will cost him very soon! It may not be this year, but don’t count on them to be better than last year. I expect them to continue to decline!
If you can’t see that, your in denial… Therapy is recommended! LOL
LOL- Can't help the denial. I didn't complete all 12 steps yet.
I expect that the FO knows way more about the O-Lines health than me. They really haven’t been wrong on much since 2007 so I am expecting a better O-Line than last year. It will be fun to see if the FO is right. It won’t be fun if they are wrong.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
If the worst mistake I can point out is a couple missed
2nd round draft picks then I am a very happy fan.
I would say the worst mistake was trading away the 1st round pick Baltimore used on Flacco. But everybody passes on somebody. I mean everybody passed on Brady 5 different times.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
JD Bootilicious
Ring a bell? LOL
If you passed on Flacco that was a huge one!! Didn’t remember that was your pick… Should have taken Flacco!!! For someone who is SUPPOSED to be a QB “guru” Chilly sure has bombed on the most important position on the field!!! Still waiting on that #4 guy… He’s broken your heart once already, 2nd time he’ll leave you at the alter!!! LOL
Chilly gets a bum rap.
Booty was a 5th round pick. He is still around. On the Houston practice squad I think. T-Jack was a second round selection and has been the starter/back-up for 4 years. Thigpen was a 7th round pick and is with Miami.
For whatever reason people think these guys were suppose to be top 10 Franchise picks. Only 30% of 2nd round selections become starters. Only 10% of all other QBs drafted ever make it onto a squad. T-Jack has survived and is still only one retirement from having his shot at the big stage. Kellen Clemmons ( Jets) went before T-Jack. Whitehurst ( Seattle) was the next QB taken.
And for the record nobody ( except Baltimore) ever though Flacco would be picked as high as #17.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, BTW. We used that pick to get Jared Allen. We don't feel that bad about it :)
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll give the Vikings FO credit for scouting
They’ve done a great job over the last few years of scouting talent and taking calculated risks. Most of these risks have worked out pretty well in bringing in talent. So I don’t blame you for your trust. Hell, most of us will trust TT due to the ballsy, and in the end correct, move of moving on from Farve and trust in Rodgers.
by PackApologist on Aug 11, 2010 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
TT did great. Sometimes a team has to move on. Just like the 49rs and Montana.
I’m sure the Eagles FO went through hell making their decision this year, too.
In my opinion all a fan can ask of their FO is to scout well and be consistent. It sounds so simple but it must not be. Few teams achieve that goal.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I would ask only one more question
Have a plan.
It sounds simple and straight forward, but when you look at moves made by the FO of an organization there needs to be a plan in place and not just acquiring talent. This is what separates the teams like the Redskins from the Patriots.
This is where I start to scratch my head for the Vikings FO. They’ve had a great plan to this point in order to build a SB contender, but how is the future secure?
Now I will say that reading some of the reports some of my questions about this area have been answered in DeGeare. He should be able to replace Hutch in a year or two. If he can adequately fill those shoes then that’s a great thing for the Vikes. There will still be McKinnie to replace in the near future as well as the QB situation.
Ultimately that’s the biggest worry of it all. In today’s NFL good to great QB is needed to be a contender. An elite QB is needed to be a year in and year out contender. Most the the current superstars of the team have 2-4 years left in their prime. As long as Farve is there and plays at a high level then all is well. The problem is who replaces him to keep all of those great players playing on a team that can make a meaningful shot at the title? QB’s in their prime don’t just become available often, and if they do it comes at a very high price. Often a rookie will take 2-4 years to develop into that great to elite QB in order to challenge. This becomes the problem that I see for the long term for the Vikings.
by PackApologist on Aug 11, 2010 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions
That’s a pretty good question actually. I don’t think there is any dobut that the Vikings need to find some who can be their Qb for 5-10, or as some like to say “a franchise Qb”.
Their offense, for the most part seems to be good for the future. Peterson is obviously great, Rice and Harvin will be good for years to come, and Shiancoe will probably be around 3-5 more years. They could use another receiver, especially after Berrian is gone but with the running game they have and the talent of Rice and Harvin, it’s probably not a huge deal.
I agree with what you said on their OL. I’ve read some articles on DeGeare as well, and the consensus seems to be that he will eventually become a starter. Loadholt will be around a long time, as well Sullivan, though I’m still not convinced he’s up too par. Finding a LT isn’t every easy but at the same time, the Vikings FO seems to do a pretty good job of finding quality OL.
Their FO is going to have a LOT of work to do on defense though in these next 3-4 years. Guys like Williams, Winfield, Leber, and Henderson will probably be retired in 3-4 years. I think Brinkley may end up being Henderson’s replacement but still need to find the rest. I think the safety position could use some upgrading for them as well. Sanford looked good to me, so they possibly have one upgrade in house already, which is nice.
What are your thoughts on what I said LLV?
by packallday555 on Aug 11, 2010 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions
The Vikings plan
The points you are making are correct up to a point.
I wrote a three part series on what I thought the Vikings plan would be after last season. You can read them here if you wish.
Part 3
My main thinking was that the Vikes know they probably won’t have an experienced “franchise QB” for a few years. They need to draft one or get a free agent. Either way it will be expensive but it has to be done. I’m convinced they would have taken one this year except they didn’t evaluate anybody but Bradford as “Franchise Material”. Maybe they were right or maybe they were wrong. But they stuck by their evaluation.
During the next three years they will need a very good O-Line and a great running game to help whoever is the next QB. A running game is a new QBs best friend.
It is possible that T-Jack has gotten better at reading and reacting. I hope so. It is possible that Webb was a gem in the rough. I hope so. But I’m guessing that we move up and take a Locker, Mallet, or other 1st rounder this year.
I like the Viking mix of young and old. RBs are young. O-Line is average. D-Line is young and deep. CBs are mixed. WRs are young. I like what they have. Also they are not afraid to mix in a free agent or two. This helps flexibility a lot.
I’m a huge fan of the way they find talent like Brinkley, Samford, Ashley late in the draft rounds. The practice squad also is used correctly for training.
If and when Brett retires I think we will be reloading, not rebuilding.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 11, 2010 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Rebuilding
When #4 retires for good, you’ll be rebuilding! You don’t have a backup plan at QB, unless your foolish enough to think TJ can carry you for a few seasons, while any QB you draft is gonna need time to develop. In addition to which you’ll not be in position to draft a top QB for a year or 2. Most go early in the draft. TJ will be just good enough to keep you around .500 or a little below, which would keep you from getting a true Franchise QB.
Your OL has 2 guys that need to be replaced soon. McKinnie and Hutch and I doubt you have adequate replacements there. You’ll need a new C and RG also since the ones you have are either low level starters or backup material. RT Might be OK, though he isn’t anywrere near a quality RT.
Defense is already in decline at more than 1/2 the positions and in need of serious help very soon! Your window, IMO was last year and it couldn’t have gone better. You didn’t make it and this year you’ll be worse not better.
Getting delusional again… Hows that 12 step program coming along?!
Love your enthusiasm but
Didn’t we get the next great quarterback at 25(Rogers) and Farve went in the 2nd round so as much as it pains me they do have a chance if they have a great talent evaluater. But even then Farve and Roger took a few years to bear fruit so your point of window of opportunity is valid.
It's a pretty good analysis
The problem that I see for the Vikings isn’t just who’s about to retire now – Farve, Longwell, P. Williams – but also who is pushing past their prime. In this category you’ll see Hutch, McKinnie, Shancoe, Kliensaucer, and Winfield.
To the Vikings credit there are players accounted for already (Hutch, Longwell, maybe Williams if the early reports of some of the DT’s are right). Kliensauers isn’t too important and Shank probably has more years then I’m giving him credit for, so no big knock there. But there are some key positions that there is no plan. The most notable of these are QB and LT.
I know your point about unproven QB’s with a good running game. The problem is that the Vikings have a good chance to lose their SB window while waiting for for the next QB to develop. The Vikes can be a playoff contender with a rookie QB. They can be a division winner with a young up and coming QB. But they will burn through AP’s and maybe even Jared Allen’s prime waiting for that QB to take the major steps into being a SB contender again.
But that’s the last bit about the Vikings FO…they are gamblers. They gambled drafting a running back when they already had Chester Taylor who was coming off a break out season. They gambled trading for a DE who was one strike away from getting kicked out of the NFL. They gambled on a WR who had major migrane issues, listed as a headcase, and already had one strike against him. All of these gambles have turned out well, but none of these are quite as big as gambling the future of the franchise versus winning now.
If it works then the plan succeeds and they are all geniuses. If it fails…well the window may be closed then.
by PackApologist on Aug 11, 2010 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
They they are old at several key positions. They have a shot if Farve miraculously defies father time(odds are extremely long) this year, but after that their done.
You taking a look into the Vikings plan made me really think about the Packers plan, and it really has me excited.
On both sides of the ball we’ve got some pretty young, already talented guys.
The skill positions are pretty much set for the next 5+ years aside from at Rb with Grant. And three of those guys, in my opinion, either are, or will be elite players (Rodgers, Jennings, Finley).
Surprisingly enough to me though, I think it’s our OL that I’m most excited about. Buluga and Lang will likely be bookends for us at the OT positions. I think Buluga is 23 and Lang is 24. Sitton, who is probably our best OL, is 24 and should be our RG for 5+ years here. Then we’ve got Colledge and Spitz, who are both 27, and who both have been decent in their time in the league. Wells is 29 and has probably been a little better then both Spitz and Colledge. I think Newhouse could be a bit of a dark house for us too. Kind of similar to what the Vikings have in Degeare.
Haha I’ll do the defense sometime later! My brain and fingers hurt!
by packallday555 on Aug 11, 2010 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Well basically that's what got TT in trouble when he got here
He created a plan past Brett Farve.
He dumped the overpaid veterans who would not be peaking past Farve’s career. He got a coach who shared philosophies of building through the draft and could develop the young talent. He got young skill talent on offense. He also got young skill talent on the D side of the ball as well. This past year he started building the lines for the future.
I know DN has been going nuts this past offseason with the Packers getting the media love. The real reason why is because the Packers are a team for this year and the next three to five. The Vikings are a team for this year, but there are serious questions after that.
by PackApologist on Aug 11, 2010 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I know DN has been going nuts this past offseason with the Packers getting the media love. The real reason why is because the Packers are a team for this year and the next three to five. The Vikings are a team for this year, but there are serious questions after that.
Seriously though. I mean we’ve got a lot of young talented guys now but just imagine how good we could be when all those guys are in their primes. Can you imagine an offense with Rodgers, Jennings, and Finley 2-4 years from now?
by packallday555 on Aug 11, 2010 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Well basically that’s what got TT in trouble when he got here
He created a plan past Brett Farve.
He dumped the overpaid veterans who would not be peaking past Farve’s career. He got a coach who shared philosophies of building through the draft and could develop the young talent. He got young skill talent on offense. He also got young skill talent on the D side of the ball as well. This past year he started building the lines for the future
All of this is so right as well. I don’t think people realize he was brought in to basically rebuild our team. He’s done a pretty darn good job of it too. Making the playoffs twice in 5 years is pretty good for being in rebuilding mode. And really it probably would have been 3 playoff seasons had basically our entire defense not gotten injured in 2008.
All the hate he receives is just crazy, and all of it is SOLELY because of or related to Brett Favre.
by packallday555 on Aug 11, 2010 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
T-Jack
I don’t think T-Jack is a bust………he is not as bad as everyone thinks he is. Sitting a year behind Favre could only make him better plus he still has big upside.
by greenbay packers backer on Aug 12, 2010 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions
QB's don't really make QB's better
I’m going back on my stump. I keep seeing people say that Farve will make T-Jack better, but this is a misunderstanding about how QB’s are formed. A QB develops through working with a good coach, through playing time, or a combination of the two. While there are some things that can happen from watching a veteran play, I’m not denying that at all, it doesn’t have as big of an impact as it does other players.
I don’t think T-Jack is a bust. I would say that he’s not a QB on par of what the Vikings need in order for all their gambles to pay off. I know countless Viking fans say that the team is balanced in age, but really when your team has nine Pro Bowlers it’s not young, it’s peaking at the same time. This means that many of the players are in their prime simultaneously and it’s time to to make serious runs. It also means that there will need to be a reorganization and rebuilding once the key pieces (and no matter what team you are on the QB is a key piece) goes away.
T-Jack cannot step in and do the things Farve did. Farve is a once in a life time QB and the Packers were blessed to find a replacement who really could fill into his shoes. Unless the Vikings work out some sort of blockbuster trade I don’t think they are going to be as lucky.
by PackApologist on Aug 12, 2010 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree…on top of that, Favre isn’t the kind of QB you’d want him learning from anyway. A lot of what makes/made Favre great is instinct which isn’t learned…its there or its not.
Last year
Although last year a quarterback probably benefited from watching him. He sat back and read defenses and played like a veteran should, he played within the system for the most part.
Yes, but to make that information any good he needs to work with the QB coach to go over the decision making skills needed to know which reads to make when based on that defensive arrangement. In the end it’s active coaching, not passive watching, that makes a better QB.
by PackApologist on Aug 13, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think anyone in the Vikings actually thinks Jackson is the guy
Otherwise, why would they be so adamant in their pursuit of Favre? If they really thought Jackson could lead this team (Like the Packers thought of Rodgers) they would close the door on Favre and move forward as a team.
by Charlie Kelly on Aug 12, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Great point. And maybe more importantly I don’t think their FO thinks Jackson is the offer. Why else would they offer him an extra 16 mil?
Too me, those things are pretty telling.
by packallday555 on Aug 12, 2010 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know if O-Lineman holds more longevity.
Other than maybe an RB, few positions take as much constant punishment.
by Charlie Kelly on Aug 11, 2010 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
longevity
I dont think that OT really go into decline until 33+. Clifton and Tausch being examples. Jones in Sea, Pace, alot of them can easily play til 35 though they are in decline and its best to have someone ready to take over for them by 35. OG and C on the other hand generally start even sooner, due to the more physical play and more bodies in such close quarters.
How quickly we forget....
that Minnesota won the NFC North without a top-notch QB, the year before Favre came in they won with T-Jack doing most of it.
For long-term dynasties, yes, you need a Manning or Elway-type QB. But how many of those guys are there? (and sorry, I’m just not convined that AR isone of them—-need to see several more years and some big game wins against tough defenses). Yes, he puts up big stats. So did Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Never won the big games, any of them.
Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl, for chrissake. And under Brian Billick! So did Rich Gannon. So did Doug Williams. Rex Grossman got to one! None of these were ever mistaken for a franchise quarterback.
Convinced the Zygi and Chilly show is gearing up for a huge short-term push, and a lot of it has to do with the pending CBA situation and stadium uncertainty. How else do you explain not taking a Colt McCoy or a Brady Quinn when they were available? Clearly they are better prospects than this yahoo they took in the later rounds—another QB project for Chilly, it seems. Chilly figures he can pick up a FA QB if he needs one next year, when the CBA hits the fan.
Only explanation is they are doing all they can to WIN NOW, and like has been said here, hard to blame them for that.
Chilly, as much as we detest his beige personality, has been a coach at a high level for 30 years. He probly knows a thing or two more than us yahoos who watch on Sundays and run our mouths on Mondays, eh?
Packers beat that team in the 1st game of the year!!! Only reason we didn’t contend for and likely win the division in 08 was tons of injuries to alot of defensive players! Dropped from 9th? overall D to 20’s…
TJ wonn’t win you another division title in his career!!! Your dellusional if you think he wil!!!
You have to look at the situation those teams were in though
MN did it a couple years ago with Jackson because the NFC North was garbage for a division. No competition whatsoever, except the average Bears going 9-7. Even our beloved Packers were terrible going 6-10, and the Lions were winless!
Dilfer did it with the Ravens, who happened to have one of the best defenses in NFL history. The Vikings don’t have a defense nearly the same.
Jim McMahon did it with the Bears in 1985 because the Bears had arguably the best defense ever assembled in NFL history.
Jim Kelly and Dan Marino failed to win a Superbowl because their teams simply were no better than the NFC Champions of that year. Common sense there. Largely, the NFC was superior to the AFC in those years because the AFC wasn’t sure how to stop the quickly emerging West Coast Offense at the time.
The Vikings have a good defense, but not a great defense. They have a great defensive line, but the secondary doesn’t solidify that defense to the point where an average QB and that defense can carry the team to the Superbowl. This year, the NFC North is competitive. The Vikings are good, the Packers are good, the Bears might be alright, and the Lions certainly won’t go winless! Increased competition means your team must be better, especially at the most important position on the field. If the Vikings had a great defense, I would agree with your argument. That’s the thing though, they don’t have a great defense by any means.
If you don’t believe AR is a franchise QB because he hasn’t been starting for 5 years, that’s fine. It’s your opinion. What he will do though, is continue to lead this team, improve, and carry this team barring any injuries.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Yea, but I doubt winning a division title is what Minnesota wants
And if I remember correctly, that season ended with a first round playoff exit at home, in which T-Jack played pretty poorly. He might just play well enough to lead the team to ten or eleven wins but do you honestly think T-Jack keeps you in the New Orleans game?
Also, don’t use the Trent Dilfer or Rex Grossman argument. Those two players had elite defenses (And the Bears were very lucky that year) The Vikings do not have an elite defense. They have a good defense but nothing even close to the 2000 Ravens.
by Charlie Kelly on Aug 12, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
they had a 10-6 record
it wasn’t so much that they won it as much as it was that everyone else was SO bad that someone had to get the division and the Vikings were the best of the awful bunch. If you think 10 wins will get the division this year you must be in a room with Harvin trying to get rid of migranes with some wacky weed.
Quick, who was the NFL's passing leader last year?
Answer: Matt Schaub, Houston Texans
Anybody consider him a franchise QB? How many teams would trade their #1 QB for him?
In today’s NFL,with the rules favoring passing, passing, and more passing, lotsa quarterbacks can put up big numbers. Winning playoff games against tough defenses, that’s where you need an experienced field marshall. Those are a lot harder to identify, but it’s done in January games not August or Sept-Dec games.
Franchise QB as in young, no
but a QB that will be in Houston for a while, yes. The point is you have to have a good to great QB with your team for a long duration of time, which Schaub provides to Houston.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
The other dirty little secret
Schaub is better than any of the QB’s the Vikings have in camp. Don’t knock him because once Farve hangs it up you Vikings fans would love to have him on your team.
See CakeEater this is what you need to learn, respect for your opponent. You never know who will end up on your team and make you eat crow after all those years of saying this person sucks or that person sucks. That’s the way of life in the NFL. Especially if you root for a team that likes to build key players through FA.
by PackApologist on Aug 12, 2010 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Who would have played better
Many people think that was one of the best playoff games of all time. Your saying Rogers putting up I forget 45 points or whatever he should have done more. Give me a break.
couple thoughts...
First, I can think of a LOT of teams that would take Schaub over what they have now…you want me to start listing them? Heck I am going to give a taste.
NFC West:
Seattle, YES.
Arizona, Probably
San Fran, YES
Rams, No (only cause they just drafted a kid)
AFC West
Denver, Maybe
SD, NOPE
Oakland, YES
KC, Maybe
So right there, we have three for sure yes, and a bunch of maybes so yeah I think a lot of teams would take him as an upgrade…especially if they have a good WR to throw to.
Second, I don’t know that I really see your point. Are you arguing that Rodgers isn’t an experienced QB that can’t win? You know another interesting stat? Go research Brett Favre’s playoff record in the past decade. Then come back here and we can talk about experienced field marshalls or whatever you were talking about.
Couple more teams that would be interested in Matt Schaub's services...
Buffalo
Minnesota
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Your right
I’ve watched Schaub closely last 2 years having him on fantasy teams damn good QB top 7 without question
Haha yeah, as a matter of fact didn’t the Texans trade for Schaub? I’m sure when they were doing it they considered him a franchise Qb, and I’m sure they still do.
I’m sure not a lot of teams would trade their #1 Qb’s for him but why in the hell does that matter?
Go research Brett Favre’s playoff record in the past decade. Then come back here and we can talk about experienced field marshalls or whatever you were talking about.
Do you, or anybody else know what Favre’s playoff record started off like?
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Favres playoff record.
Started 9-3 I believe under Holmgren….
About 3-9 since.
Something like that. He’s about .500 overall after the terrific start!
Division Titles: Tavaris Jackson 1, Aaron Rodgers 0
Can’t argue with the facts. You can blame all you want on injuries—this is the NFL, jack. EVERY TEAM has key injuries EVERY YEAR.
Don't give that divison to T-Jack
I’m sorry but playing all of 4 or 5 games doesn’t mean you led your team to a division title.
by PackApologist on Aug 12, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you mean Gus Frerotte
And yes, he is a far better player than Aaron Rodgers. God, I wish that swap we were planning didn’t fall through at the last minute.
by Charlie Kelly on Aug 12, 2010 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, it’d be Gus Ferotte 1, Aaron Rodgers 0.
by packallday555 on Aug 12, 2010 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Playoff wins
Jackson 0, Rodgers 0…isn’t that what you were just arguing about?
Here’s another interesting one…how many NFL teams would take Jackson over their current QB…I think the answer is a LOT closer to 0 than the number that would take Rodgers. What a stupid ignorant statement. How come we get the most ignorant Viking fans that come over here???
Clearly the guy is just coming to try and get us worked up. All of his arguments have just been plain stupid.
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh and I think your right about the number of teams who would want Jackson. Keep in mind the Vikings did only tender him with a 3rd round pick..There were a few teams who were REALLY scrambling for a Qb this season. Wouldn’t you think they would have given up only a 3rd round pick if they though Jackson could fill that void? And at the same time, don’t you think the Vikings would have tendered him with more had they actually thought he is going to be their guy?
It’s almost laughable how some Viking fans defend Jackson. Especially because all of the “problems” they love to point out about Rodgers are also all things you could criticize Jackson for, only probably double as much lol.
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
My favorite one is:
Rodgers isn’t any good because he holds onto the ball too long. He won’t win games if he keeps getting sacked.
Really Minnesota?! REALLY?!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Yeah, I hear that one the most over on DN. The other criticism is that he fumbles too much. Haha.
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Jackson
Is that true that they only tendered him a 3rd rd pick? You know he was a 2nd rd pick… So they didn’t even tender him at the draft round he was picked in?… LMAO
Hell we even tendered our favorite whipping boy Colledge at his draft round!!!!
Yep, he was tendered at a 3rd round pick. Pretty telling huh?
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
1, 1, 2
Vikings rush defense ranking the last three years.
Led the league in sacks last year, as well.
That’s not a great defense? Depends on how you define great. But who’s better?
You gotta do it when it counts. Look how Arizona shredded the overrated Pack defense in the playoffs. Reminder that the Pack’s lofty stats last year came against a soft schedule.
Go look up GB"s record, and it’s defensive performance. against teams with winning records last year. And then look up Minny’s.
Proof that rankings can be misleading.
Tiger Woods is the #1 ranked golfer in the world today? How much is that worth?
About 80 Million per year.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 12, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
What's their pass D ranked?
How many yards do to they give up?
Is this league more run oriented or pass oriented today?
I aint arguing that their Run D is great, because it is. It’s the pass D that puts a knock on them.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Exactly, wasn’t he just talking about how the league is so pass oriented? I don’t think anyone was ripping on the front 4 of the Vikings, that would be stupid…almost as stupid as arguing that Tavaris Jackson won a division for the Vikings or that teams wouldn’t want Schaub as their QB, or that Rodgers isn’t a great QB cause he hasn’t won a division title yet.
ugh…I don’t mind when the intelligent Viking fans come over here and talk trash but the dumb ones get old fast.
It makes things interesting though, you must admit it!
It makes me feel bad for the good Viking fans out there though, such as LLV and Grimes, and a few others, that get a bad rep from guys like Cake Eater. Every team has a bad apple though. Yeah, that was my first thought after reading Cake Eater’s comments- “Are you slow or something?!” LOL.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
By this logic then the MN offense is terrible
Did you see them in that game against the Saints last year? I mean the offensive line looked like a revolving door and let Farve get smacked around. Harvin and AP also are completely useless since they can’t hold on to football. Actually none of that team could.
Yup, that’s how I’ll always think of the Viking offense. Because I judge by one game. Isn’t that how all teams are judged?
by PackApologist on Aug 12, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Seem to remember
A certain HOF QB (Warner) beating the viqueens too!!! So you don’t really have a leg to stand on… Getting beat by Warner in the playoffs isn’t exactly something to frown upon!!! He might be one of the better playoff QB’s of All Time!!!
The argument shouldn't be whether T-Jack or Aaron is the better QB.
I don’t know anyone that wouldn’t agree that Aaron is a better passer than T-Jack. He has proven that. But neither have proved themselves to be great QBs yet.
That comes from being a team leader and a successful passer. It comes from stuyding film and learning to read defenses. It comes with magically processing all of that information and then making a correct decision.
Aaron will always be a great passer and a very good QB. He has the chance to be a great one.
T-Jack has had the opportunity to become a good passer and will be given the chance to show he can be a good QB. Every year someone on every team gets better. T-Jack had great numbers last year in mop up duties. He might have the chance to show that he is better than most give him credit for being.
If he is then the Vikings will be very happy. If he isn’t they will replace him at the end of the season.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
Don't miss the point
Cake your just not saying it, LLV I think you are there though. Here’s the point I’m making, and for clarity let’s just forget the Packers for a moment and look merely at the Vikings.
Right now the Vikings are a team where most of their starters are peaking or rather in their prime. Or to really boil this all down, the face the Vikings are three players: Farve, AP, and Jared Allen. When Farve walks away there will be a relatively short period where AP is still at the top of his game, Allen will probably be a bit longer, but not necessarily by much. This won’t only apply to the face of the franchise either, it will also apply to many other starters as well. The only main exception to this will be Rice and Harvin who are just entering their prime within the last year or maybe this year.
Thus it’s not a far logical jump to conclude that once Farve leaves the Vikings don’t have much time to break in a new QB if they want to make a Super Bowl push. They would either need to trade for a franchise level QB, possible or highly unlikely or getting one through free agency, again possible but a long shot.
I know, you can get far with a great running game and young QB….but not really a SB push. Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez are two examples of this philosophy, but you are also talking about more aggressive defenses that they are playing behind. I don’t think this will work for the Vikings.
The argument of basing future success on 2008 is old and doesn’t get much traction. It’s a different game and different division. Average QB’ing won’t cut it here anymore, not with three other starting QB’s who have the ability to take over a game. (I know many are down on Stafford and Cutler, but they will be able to take over games in a way the current QB’s at MN’s training camp can’t).
Making analogies to Trent Dilfer and the average crowd also doesn’t really past muster. See those defenses attacked the ball and the QB more then the Vikings do now. The D-line is elite for the Vikings defense…not much else is after that. You could point to Henderson and Winfield being that, but remember they are nearing the end of their careers as well or at least working out of the back of their prime years.
The bottom line is the plan is to win NOW. The problem with this plan is that if you don’t win NOW then you set yourself up to lose later. If you as a fan are fine with that, then great. If not, then worry because the future planning is the Achilles heel of the Vikings FO.
Well Said
In a way, that kind of reminds me of Mike Sherman. We were always good, but never great and never could set the tone for the future. The end result: a 2005 epic disaster and coaching change. Not exactly the same, but similar in a way.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Give it time
I’m not saying it’s going to happen the say way in MN, but I wouldn’t be surprised if something like that happened out there.
Building a franchise can go a few different ways: from the inside out, or around a QB. Either way, a team will need to have both and once you have all those pieces in place it’s tough to get it back one either your lines fail or your QB leaves.
by PackApologist on Aug 12, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Great point!
The team that SHerman had was largely built by Wolf and ready to win immediately. The were very much on a win NOW schedule, just like the vikes are now…. Or IMO, were last year! I think their window is closed and they’ll only get worse from here on until they rebuild!!!
Childress is dog meat in a year or 2…
Can't agree for several reasons
First I just don’t accept your wrong premise that the Vikings starting 22 are old. Take away the kicker,one DT,and a Qb and the average age drops by 25 years. Well maybe not 25 but you get my drift. Every team has changes. Whether it is through free agency, injury,or retirement. But the Vikings have a very strong nucleus of talent to keep reloading.
Now I will grant you that to build a super bowl dynasty you need a Franchise QB. Not to win one super bowl but for a dynasty. The Starr era, Bradshaw, Aikman, Montana, Young, Brady, Manning, ect.
The Vikings( and every other team) needs a great QB. We have one now. We had one when Cunningham came. We had one with Culpepper. We will have another. Maybe they get a free agent or maybe Jackson is the real deal. Maybe they trade their sole for Locker this year. Whatever the plan the Vikings have the resources to accomplish the job. Lets say Brady and New England get sideways. Why wouldn’t the Vikes offer him a contract. The point is that right now we have a franchise QB. If he isn’t able to go we use our back-up. We are fairly confident in his ability to get us to the play-offs. Can you say the same thing if Aaron gets hurt in the pre-season?
The Vikes do have a plan. They are building a good team each and every year. Every year is different but the talent is there. We totally expect Pat Williams and Farve to retire soon. We are grooming replacements. Our stock of pass rushers is very strong. Our O-Line is not lacking for depth. Our secondary is getting stronger and younger while playing behind Winfield and Griffen. The Linebacking corps is medium quality right now. But your theory of some kind of long term downtrend just isn’t true.
But the proof will be played out between our teams each year. I’m just glad I don’t have to face Peterson, Allen, Farve and company. They are really tough.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 12, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Best players
Every one of your best players save AD, Rice and maybe Harvin or old and on the cusp of being on the down side if they aren’t already!!! And it can easily be argued that Favre MADE Rice and Harvin just like he did Brooks, Freeman, Driver and a host of other Packer WR! So then the question is are Rice and Harvin for real or are they simply made alot better by Favre’s presence?!!
You actually think Cunningham and Culpepper wer e franchise QB"s? You really are dellustional! LMAO
Your plan is to win now… Otherwise getting a 40 yr old QB is a waste of time!!! The only plan the vikes have is to throw the keys to #4 and hope and pray he gets you there! If you had a plan another QB would have been drafted this year or already be on the roster! But they aren’t and the vikes KNOW it otherwise you wouldn’t be wasting a year of two on a 40 yr old QB, no matter how good he is!!!
You don’t have quality replacements for Farve, nor do you have on for Pat Williams! Unless your actually think the BUST Jimmy Kennedy is a viable replacement! If Kennedy were why would the RAMS have dumped him? Not to mention that McKinnie and Hutch are very near the end. EJ Hendy probably won’t ever be the same. Cook was a good draft pick, but like all rookie CB he’ll be toast more often than not this year! Gerhart is nothing but a big power RB who ran over smaller and slower LB in college… THat won’t happen in the NFL!!!
Vikes window is CLOSED!!! Slammed shut!!!
All I'm saying is the future is cloudy...not bleak
I’m not saying all starters are old. What I am saying is that the key members of the team will leave their prime if the Vikings start from square one at QB next year.
I’ll break my argument down….
Who makes the Vikings go? Jared Allen (28 years old right now in his 7th year), Adrian Peterson (25 years old 4th year), Kevin Williams (29 years old 8th year), Steve Hutchingson (32 and 11th year), Bryant McKinnie (30 and 9th year), EJ Henderson (30 8th year), Antoine Winfield (33 and 12 year), Sydney Rice (23 and 4th year), Chad Greenway (27 5th year), and Percy Harvin (22 2nd year).
These are the guys that I would describe as your core starters on the team. Now there are plenty of other starters that are solid guys, but they are not the main playmakers that the Vikings rely upon. When you look that over there plenty of guys in the middle of their prime some at the end and some at the beginning.
Now, if Farve does not bring a SB to the Vikings next year and retires (I know this is a might big if but follow me on this) where will the Vikings be? Most of those players will be exiting the prime of their careers and really have 2-4 years of good years left in them. This will vary by the position of coarse, but it’s still the case.
Now it’s possible to build fairly quickly if you can stay aggressive in the offseason and make wise trades, but free agency has been drying up the last few years and a team can only get so many good players from the draft. Especially when you look at how few starters of the Vikings come from a draft position past the second round.
Now I know I’m a bit pessimistic on my outlook for the Vikings, I admit to being a biased judge, but this is also the negative part of the win now mentality. The future is cloudy for the Vikings. I don’t see a clear plan in place after Farve for the Vikings. Do they turn back into a running team? How is the O-line going to come together. You made a great point today about the replacement for McKinnie over at DN. Whoever that is going to be he’s not on the roster right now.
There are many questions like this facing the Vikings. Questions that, frankly, don’t face the Packers. We know who is replacing most of the other guys on the roster. The tackles have their replacements, as do most of the interior linemen (or they are young enough that a foreseeable replacement isn’t needed). We are deep and young at TE. The receiving corp are just starting to see their potential although adding one in the near future might be needed. Could use an upgrade at RB. On the D side of things the line is mixed, but replacements look to be in place for the older vets. The LB’s get a bit fuzzy and OLB depth is not there. There are a slew of young corners ready to make a name for themselves and the safeties are really only starting to show their potential.
Like I said, I’m baised. I’m a Packer fan and I’ve gotten used to a team that performs to high expectations and is the youngest team in the NFL. Ultimately my perception of the Vikings is like the end of the Sherman era. At the time the Packers were winning the division year in and year out and always making the playoffs. I was talking to a Jags fan who told me the team was getting old and would fade away. I laughed him off and thought he was crazy…it was early 2006. That fall I watched the team imploded because the team got old at all the key positions all at once. It wasn’t every starter mind you, but it was most of the key ones.
By the way, did you know that while he was an assistant at Wisconsin Childress was good friends with Mike Sherman? That’s how he got to know Farve, and Daryl Bevell who was Sherman’s offensive coordinator at the time….just sayin’….
by PackApologist on Aug 12, 2010 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Very detailed analysis
I appreciate the thoroughness of your thought process. I respect your position but do not see it from the same prospective. Lets start with your premise.
I’m a Packer fan and I’ve gotten used to a team that performs to high expectations.
HERE is the GB record. You will note that since 1961 ( Vikings first year) your team has had a winning record only 24 times. The Vikings have had 26 winning seasons (HERE). Both teams have been very good competitors and have high expectations. The Vikings went without a winning record for 5 years between 1981-1985. Their longest time without a winning record. Green Bay went 16 years between 1972 and 1988. Since the 1989 season GB has had 15 winning seasons and the Vikings 13. You can tell by looking at the Vikings records that they have had up and down fluctuations. But if history is a guide I would assume that if they go down they won’t be down for very long.
The second point I want to make is often overlooked. The Vikings went through an ownership change in 2005. New owner, new coaches, new philosophies, and much change. Coach Childress came on in 2006 and VP of Player Personnel, Rick Spielman came on in 2007. This duo has been very good together and for whatever reason is not given the credit they deserve for all of their correct decisions. Anyone that really thinks the owner would change this formula for success ( like Strohman) is not looking at it from an owners point of view.
This front office team has been very good at building and maintaining a team. When it needed a pass rusher they got one. When they needed a CB they got one. When a Franchise QB became available they got him. They are selective in their draft picks and free agents. Why would anyone contemplate that they won’t make more strategic moves to bolster or maintain the team? Will another QB be available if needed? Of course. Can they make mistakes? Of course. But if history is a guide I wouldn’t bet against them.
I have no crystal ball and can’t tell which teams will be great this year or beyond. I just know that both the Pack and the Vikes should be good this year. I have full faith in our front office to maintain the high standards they have achieved so far.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 13, 2010 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions
You missed the boat LLV
Ironically you hit my point on the head.
How did your FO get their pass rusher? How did the FO get their QB?
See this FO inherited a pretty good team, but there were key pieces needed to be put in place on defense and an overhaul of the skill positions on offense. They secured this through free agency, trades, and first and second round draft picks. That’s wonderful. But really, as I talked about a plan, it was getting veterans and guys who are ready to play on the field. This isn’t a bad thing, but it’s also not a long term building either.
As I’m sure you’ve read over and over and over in this thread, more than one Packer fan sees what you are all doing as something we’ve seen before. Ironically it was with the connections that the previous staff had with Farve as well. Let’s just say it didn’t end well for us. Honestly, if the Vikings don’t win this year I don’t see it ending well for you either.
Will you be down long? Maybe, maybe not…but the future is not bright. If the FO wishes to build the way it has in the past they have to hope that top level guys become cast offs on their own team. Really that’s what has worked for them. Jared Allen was a cast off in KC because of his drinking. Well, that and the team was on a fire sale. Harvin was a cast off because of the migranes and the fact he tested positive for drugs at the combine (never a good thing). Farve’s previous two teams also said good bye because they found younger replacements.
These gambles have worked for the Vikings, but is this sort of team development sustainable? I would answer no. The most sustain form of building a team is the draft. Free agency has dried up and teams don’t make many trades. Then the question becomes how has this FO team handled the draft? Well they have hit very well in their first two rounds, or trading the picks at the right time. The problem is that this method will only bring in 1-3 players a year. As you saw from my earlier analysis, that doesn’t leave much room for error judging by the ages of key positions, or even position groups (most notably TE). A plan involving the draft is a slow one since the draft’s downside is that it’s pretty unpredictable.
Thus, we should turn our attention to how this FO has handled lower rounds. Now right now I’m essentially going to ignore this year’s class. We really won’t know what these guys will bring to the table until Saturday at the earliest. In looking at rounds 3-7 the Vikings have acquired three key contributors from this part of the draft over the past five years (Asher Allen, John Sullivan, and Ray Edwards). [I’m not high on Allen, but I guess he’s have a great camp and should break out this year so I’ll give you that one.] After that there are also a couple guys with potential as well, four I would think of specifically with Guion, Robinson, Brinkley, and Sanford. That’s pretty good.
Now compare this to the Packers. There are 7 key contributors obtained through the rounds 3-7 of the draft during those same years: Brad Jones, Jermichael Finely, Josh Sitton, James Jones, Korey Hall, Jason Spitz, and Mason Crosby. In addition to that there are another four players, Brett Swain, Breno Giacomini, Brandon Underwood, and T.J. Lang who look to key contributors in the near future. This is a vastly different, and I what I would say is more sustainable, method of building a team because instead of working with other teams have let go you are working with young talent that a team can mold into fitting their scheme.
by PackApologist on Aug 13, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, Minnesota has had more winning records and more division titles, but they have never won the one game that counts. That’s the point we are getting at. We are not arguing that Minneosta will be terrible in the next couple years. They may have a down year in about 5 years, but it won’t last long. They have always been a good team, but rarely ever a great team, and have never been the BEST team. Think about it, if Detroit wins a Superbowl before Minnesota, they already have a better history because winning the Superbowl means you achieved the ultimate objective in the NFL each season! Division wins, records, stats…it all doesn’t matter. Yeah, we made the playoffs last year. It was great for our confidence in moving forward as a young team, but do Non-Packer fans care? Heck no. It doesn’t matter. I would rather have 9 losing seasons and 1 Superbowl victory and a winning record in a decade as opposed to 10 mediocre seasons with nothing to show for it.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Thats one perspective.
But in all honesty I’m not sure you are correct.
I have been a fan of the Vikings since they were formed. I wouldn’t trade a Superbowl win for 16 straight losing seasons. I would love to have a SB victory. So would Philadelphia and a few other teams. But I have been there several times. I have had the best record in the NFL. I have been rewarded many times over for being a Viking fan. A team that is in the hunt gives the fan something to hang on to every year. There is little fun in not being competitive.
I guess if your team is really bad you can look back and say “we were great back then”. And if that is how you define success then so be it. But I bet most Pack fans think about how great they will be in the future.
Your point , I think, is that the Vikes are in one of those spots in time when it can crumble in a hurry. I wouldn’t dispute that. My point is that we are also in a spot where success can continue.
I don’t know your team well enough to comment on their drafts. A quick review HERE tells me that the first three draft picks in ‘07,’08, and ‘09 have only produced 1 ( Clay Mathews) primary starter for the Pack. I’m sure many of these picks are young and are waiting in the wings with much potential. If they do not become starters then you will have some very rough times ahead. But isn’t that the way for most teams. You pick your own poison.
Good luck to your team.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 13, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
History Lesson
I’m not going to lie… THe 16+ years or non-winning football sucked. Our organization was in a state of disrepair at the time. IT was frought w/ in-fighting and power struggles. When you have corporate type structure, which by the way is also UNIQUE to our franchise you have to have an excellent structure. The BOD had to vote on everything and there weren’t football men making football decisions all the time. And when they were, the needed approval of the BOD to make the moves. That Greatly contributed to our problems in the 70’s and 80’s. Packer fans are all very proud of the fact that we are the only Publicly Owned franchise, but it did create problems.
Now the Packers have football men (among the best) making football decisions! And the Organization has Businessmen making Business decisions.
Its easy for you to say you wouldn’t trade 16 yrs of bad play and leadership, but until you’ve reached the pinnacle of success you don’t know the JOY that it is to win a SB trophy! You know the trophy named after our former Coach??? THat would be the Lombardi Trophy!!!
I understand your feeling of triumph
and I appreciate your candor on the bad years.
But the Vikings have been around for 50 years. I have been there for each and every year. 26 times they have taken me to the play-offs. 4 Times I have been proud to watch them in the Superbowl. We had one of the best teams ever in 1998 and an excellent one in 2009. To somehow define that time period as not successful is just not accurate.
No one would love a Superbowl victory more than I. No one is more admiring of any team that wins one or more than I. But success is not defined as described earlier.
Think about it, if Detroit wins a Superbowl before Minnesota, they already have a better history because winning the Superbowl means you achieved the ultimate objective in the NFL each season!
At least in this fans book. Green Bay has much to be proud of. Their ownership structure is one of those. No other fan base just donates money to their team( stock sales) in order to survive. No other fan base has no worries about their future location. No other fan base has a waiting list for tickets like the Packers. It is a proud tradition. A tradition of success. And it would be defined that way even if they had never won a Superbowl.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Aug 13, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Triumph
You have experienced alot of success, but success alone isn’t triumph! That can only come when you win the ultimate game. THAT is triumph!!! You have a good franchise, who has experience it share and then some of winning. That in itself is something to be proud of… But is not TRIUMPH!
Packers have visited that triumph 3 times in my lifetime and many occasions before. Until you experience that you won’t know that everything else pales in comparison!
If we had never won anything we wouldn't exist
This is a funny discussion to be happening this year because the NFL is a changin’. Can you smell the change in the air? The CBA looks to make some revisions to things. The owners are trying to make sure the revenue is secure, the players don’t want to give up what they already have.
In the middle of it the Packers trot out these ugly uni’s from ‘29. Why on God’s earth do they do that? I’d like to think it’s a nod to the fans and to Green Bay. A strong argument can be made that if the Packers didn’t take a championship in ‘29 they wouldn’t of made it much longer. It was this good will won through this championship that got people to pony up and invest in them in the first place. It was the winning in the 60’s under Lombardi that kept people wanting to keep them around, and developed the ravenous fan bases you see today.
In fact…think of the really ardent fan bases in the NFL. The ones where it gets really crazy, most of them share one thing in common: at least one Super Bowl victory. There are only two exceptions to this rule: the Eagles and the Bills.
Winning is why Green Bay is Titletown. It’s why the Packers have any business being there and being special at all. If it wasn’t for all those championships and having the friggin’ trophy of the NFL named after our greatest head coach then they would be somewhere else and Green Bay would simply be the toilet paper capital of the world.
by PackApologist on Aug 13, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for the luck and luck to you as well
First it’s been great having this discussion with you. I hope to see you more around here having good discussions or bumping into each other over at DN. Also your article with Grime on the O-line was great keep up the good work!
Next this year will actually pan out most of the starters from those first round drafts. Raji will start this year at NT. Matthews will still be a starter. Bulaga looks to have the starting LG job this year as well. That only leaves Harrell. We could also throw in the previous two years you’d have Hawk and Rodgers. That leaves five years and only one bust, and a bust due to injuries. That’s really not that bad a track record.
Hell let’s go second round picks too. That would be Neal, Nelson, Brohm, Lee, Jackson, Jennings, Colledge, and Collins. Of these Neal should help this year and take a starting role next year, Nelson is pushing for sole position of the number 3 spot and will take over once DD retires, Lee is healthy and should produce this year(having a great camp), Colledge has been a starter since day one, Jennings you know, Collins is a two time Pro Bowler. Not too shabby. The only true bust is Brohm who is challenging for a starting role in Buffalo.
You can read Stroh’s post for a good point of being careful of going history terms with a Packer fan. I also don’t want to be one of those dicks who just says “yeah, but how many SB’s have you won?” I will say this though, great franchises are measured in championships, not competitiveness. This is why the 49ers are remembered well. Why the Cowboys, Steelers and Packers have large national fan bases. This is why Elway and Montana are living legends.
I guess my ultimate point is this…the Packers are a team on the rise. The core of players are either just hitting their prime or about to hit their prime. The Vikings are in an opposite spot. This isn’t to say the Vikings have no future. In fact, what will probably happen is that you’ll see one bad or medicore season (like Childress’s first year) and then many more competitive years. I don’t forsee a Lions type drought.
The other thing you have to understand from our prospective is that most of the hardcore followers here can see a replacement for nearly every single player who is near the age of 30 on the roster. This is not something that I can see looking over the Vikings roster. Even though I will admit that this discussion has caused me to take a lessened stance on that particular point.
by PackApologist on Aug 13, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Really though
I don’t think the Vikings style is a sustainable one. Here’s why:
When you look at teams that have truly sustainable winning ability you see a heavy emphasis on drafting and light on everything else. Here’s you’ll see teams such as: Indy, Baltimore, and SD. There are a few weird teams that can do the mixture like New England, New York and Dallas, but even these teams have a very light take in the FA market these days.
For example, New England. No one amasses picks like New England, and there is a reason for this too. This teams trusts its coach to bring up players, and they trade away vets like crazy in order to keep a young core in tact. This has led to some problems in the last couple years, but it is also the main reason why they have stayed around in the power rankings and Super Bowl hunt for ten years. This is something both the Packers and Vikings cannot say.
I’ve said it the whole time in this discussion. The Vikings are great drafters at the top of the draft, but don’t seem interested in the bottom end of the draft. A look over their draft history shows this, players taken near the top have been hits, but there are many many misses at the bottom ends of the draft. The draft is just not where the core players come from. That’s not a bad thing, but it’s also not a consistent thing.
Perhaps I’m wrong though. I’m not a Vikings fan so I may not be a good judge who the core players are. Out of the ten I listed above, I forgot to mention P. Williams and Farve as well, six came from the draft six from trades or free agency.
On the other hand if I were to pick out twelve core players from the Packers (off the top of my head I picked Rodgers, Woodson, Jennings, Finely, Matthews, Jenkins, Collins, Barnett, DD, Grant, Clifton, Tauscher) only one came from a trade (Grant) and one came from FA (Woodson). You could also make the argument for Jenkins being an undrafted free agent, but I qualified this under draftish.
My bottom line point is that the Vikings FO has a definite style in acquiring talent. Now this could change, and this draft might be the start of that, but the style that they’ve shown so far is not one for the long haul. That’s great for winning now, not great for sustaining that talent level. Especially considering that free agency becomes worse with each passing year. Teams are too good at holding on to the talented players on their rosters. Trades are becoming rarer as well, hell that’s why Ron Wolf retired in the end.
The successful GM’s primarily draft and dabble in FA and trades. I will say that the Vikings FO has a more well rounded approach than TT. I would also say though with the way our coaching staff can bring along young talent, FA and trades is not as necessary as it is on many other teams.
by PackApologist on Aug 13, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah he’s kinda an odd duck that way. He would be another FA that would bring the total to three. Ultimately though the point remains the same.
by PackApologist on Aug 13, 2010 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions
replacements
I see replacements for all of our older vets. Lets take a look…
Clifton – Bulaga or Newhouse
Tauscher – Giacomini or Lang
Harris – Williams, Underwood, Lee and Shields
Woodson – see above.
Driver – Nelson and Jones
Lee – Finley and Quarless
Wells – Spitz though I might be looking at Center soon.
Pickett – Neal, Wilson
Barnett – Chillar is the best option, though drafting an ILB or preferable OLB high next year should be a priority.
I think that should cover just about every position where we have someone nearing or over 30.
Yes, they really are replacements. Plus, history tells us that Thompson will probably draft an impact player every two years or so.
I think every position is looking really good into the future aside from Cb, Olb, and Ilb.
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Replacements
I even like the CB replacements… Underwood and Shields especially! Shields is going to be a terrific CB IMO… Lee should be solid. I don’t think CB will be a need for 2 or 3 yrs.
OLB is far and away the most glaring need! ILB next followed by CB.
That’s true. You can’t teach the speed/acceleration possesses. Watching some of those training camp videos on Packers blog has me impressed with Shields. The break he makes on some balls in unreal. We may have found a nice little player in him.
I like Underwood more then Lee but both should be solid. I don’t see either being a #1 or #2 Cb though necessarily. Do you think Shields could be? I think maybe taking a Cb high in the next year or two to pair as a starter with Williams could be smart but maybe one of the guys we have in house will develop into a starter.
Yeah, OLB is a need. Even if Jones or Chillar end up being good there, we still need much more depth.
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow, can you say typos! I meant speed/acceleration HE possesses.
Also meant the breaks he makes on some balls IS unreal.
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
IMO, we could have a good group. I can see Williams and Underwood as the starters in a couple years, w/ Shields as the nickel CB. That would be a pretty good group, especially if we end up playing mostly zone. If we are still more man coverage then we might need another CB unless Lee becomes a really good man CB, which is what he was drafted to be. Generally in a zone coverage scheme you don’t need great CB. Its going to be a LONG time before a guy w/ Woodson’s instincts and playmaking ability comes our way again. So you can’t measure CB by his standards!
If you’re comfortable with that, that’s fine. I guess it’s what you want. Some of us can reference that to baseball, some simply feel the Brewers will never win a World Series because there is no salary cap. I for one am not willing to accept mediocrity consistently, because to me, there is no pride in that. That’s just me though, and you are right, every fan is different.
I just wanted to point out that we were in a similar situation, so if your path does continue they way ours did with Sherman, we know what the end result will be. There is no predicting the future, it’s all hope and speculation.
I don’t have the numbers, but I believe I heard last year that the Packers have the most starters from their own draft of any other team. That can be reflected on TT’s mindset of building from within though. As you probably know, he is very strict on that.
Again though, I do feel the Vikings will be competitive consistently, but I don’t feel they’ll be a Superbowl winner anytime soon. It is speculation though, because none of us truly know what will happen. For us, it’s basing everything on past events. The Vikings however have made a lot better Free Agent acquisitions as opposed to Mike Sherman though.
2007- Justin Harrell. Was injured every year. Will hopefully be playing this year.
2008- N/A. Traded out of 1st Round.
2009- Clay Mathews and BJ Raji. 2 starters.
So, we have 2 starters in 3 drafts. Raji didn’t start last year because of injuries, but when he did start in a few games, he was very good. He is listed as the starting NT this year. Harrell didn’t because of injuries as well. Harrell is considered by some to be a bust because of all his injuries, but this season is the final verdict.
If you want to look further into TT’s tenure: 2005- Aaron Rodgers, 2006- AJ Hawk
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Where are they now: a Packers draft history
Here’s some of the raw data for you Jabooty:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1800&type=team
From this we can point out a few things:
Guys who started out of the 2006 class: Hawk, Colledge, Jennings, and Jolly. Moll might of gotten some time in or competition last year as well but he was traded for Martin who may or may not make the team this year.
2007 class: James Jones (although not a starter really the 3rd receiver is still key in today’s NFL), Korey Hall, and Mason Crosby – with Desmond Bishop knocking on the door for good measure.
2008 class: Nelson (see note for Jones and in our offense the forth wide is key as well), Finely, and Sitton are starters. There are also lots of good notes from other members of this class taking steps to being key backups or future starters as well like Breno, Lee, and Swain. Flynn might even be future draft picks if he has a good pre-season.
2009 class: Matthews, Raji, Underwood and Jones are all going to be starters or key contributors. With Lang getting honorable mention as a future starter at either LG or RT depending how Breno pans out.
2010 class: WAY too early to tell here really. If I were to guess the guys who look to pan out are Burrnett (starting week 1 unless there is an injury or miracle), Bulaga (also looking to start week one if Colledge flames out), and Neal. Wilson, Quarless and Newhouse have flashed so far I guess but who knows really. Also of note might be Shields(undrafted FA) catching on and contributing faster than we think.
by PackApologist on Aug 13, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
the bottom line is
if the pack loses the division it will be by a narrow margin which will be to favre and the vikings, in which case i don’t lose sleep at night because I want him to get 1 more ring to shut up the critics, then after that we can begin a new packers dynasty
Our Bottom line!
If your rooting for #4 to get another ring instead of the Packers, your now a viqueens fan!!! And we would appreciate if you stay that way!!! We don’t want or need a fair-weather fan who cheers for the other teams QB instead of our TEAM!!!
Amen!!!!!
I was just saying basically the same thing the other day!!!!!!
I think this will be a disappointing season for Minnesota
1. There seems to be a complete lack of focus in camp. Between players like Rice and Harvin being gone, and all of the drama centered around Favre, there probably is a lot less focus on the football.
2. Going with a soon to be 41 year old QB with a bad ankle is never a good idea. Sure, Favre could play like last year and prove us all wrong again. However, I think enough defenses have watched tape of last year and now better understand how their offense works, and defenses will be gunning for Favre just like New Orleans did (Doesn’t help that Vandenbosch, Suh, and Peppers are now part of the division)
3. At this point, I don’t really think Jackson or Sage are reliable options regardless of what Favre does. It’s not even completely about skill either, it has to be a confidence thing. Both guys have been dicked around by the FO about being a starter and you have to think, if either comes in and doesn’t immediately play well, fans will be upset and the confidence will sink further.
Like PackApologist, I don’t think the Vikings are going to turn into the Lions, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that they face a season or two of disappointment.
There seems to be a complete lack of focus in camp. Between players like Rice and Harvin being gone, and all of the drama centered around Favre, there probably is a lot less focus on the football.
I think this might be much more of an concern then Viking fans seem to think it is, Rice especially. The guy has had injury problems his ENTIRE career. So when he injures a hip in January, and it’s supposed to heal within the next 1-2 months, and it turns out to STILL be a problem in August it’s time to start freaking out a bit. The reports of him going to see 3 doctors, with 1 suggesting surgery certainly doesn’t help how the situation is perceived either.
Harvin isn’t as big a concern too me. I used to get migraines when I was a really little kid. Usually you get them in episodes, and when those episodes come, they’re bad. It can last anyway from a couple days to a month (sometimes worse if you have them really, really bad) but generally after that episode passes you’re good for a while. Harvin’s migraines seem to follow this pattern, so I’m sure at some point he’ll be better. Him missing training camp does hurt though, and could slow the start of his season down quite a bit.
Plus, they’ve still got major contributors who need to prove they can come back from injury like Henderson, Griffin, Hutchinson, and McKinnie. If one or two of those guys can’t, which is a real possibility when you look into all their individual situations, that could have a negative effect on their season.
I think teams will just try and pound the hell out of Favre like the Saints did in the playoffs. As Favre got older and older, you could tell more and more he didn’t like taking the big hits (and understandably so). I watched it with the Packers since probably 2005. Teams will starting hitting him more and it’ll make him play more timid, and indecisively, just like it did in the playoffs last season.
Neither of them are reliable options. Period. The point you make about the FO is a huge one. It’s clear by the moves they have made that they don’t have confidence in either guy, so how can the fans? The players allegedly texting Favre, begging him not to retire certainly doesn’t show much confidence either.
by packallday555 on Aug 14, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree with everything except
I don’t think teams are going to get any new revelations from watching film from last year because it is pretty much the same offense Farve has been in his whole career. that’s why he was able to step in and be successful without training camp.
Harvin and Rice missing can’t be good. Last years breakout year for Rice was largely due to a intense offseason of workouts. He didn’t do anything this off season he’s setting up for a let down. The way this Harvin migraine things going will he even comeback I know they are very worried over their
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