Could The Packers Make A Trade For A Cornerback?
by Brandon on Sep 1, 2010 12:00 PM CDT
in Green Bay Packers Training Camp
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PrintThe Green Bay Packers depth at cornerback looks more shaky now then it did at the start of training camp. CB Pat Lee looks like he hasn't played in a year (which he hasn't). CB Brandon Underwood hurt his shoulder. And although his return was a long shot, CB Al Harris won't be available until mid-season at the earliest.
According to the Journal-Sentinel, undrafted CB Sam Shields is the likely nickel back. Shields has promise, but he is still playing like a rookie. It might have been a nice idea to trade for someone like CB Josh Wilson, who the Seahawks gave away for a 5th round pick. But it does appear that Baltimore is a perfect fit for the former University of Maryland star. And as Doug Farrar pointed out, Wilson is only 5'9" and current Seahawks GM (and former Packer exec.) John Schneider appears to prefer taller cornerbacks, just like the Packers. Wilson would be the shortest CB currently on the roster.
While Wilson was never a possibility, the Packers have been known to make trades before the final cuts are made. Obviously RB Ryan Grant for a 6th round pick in 2007 was a steal, but even the trade of OL Tony Moll for S Derrick Martin helped improve their depth. It will depend on the decisions made by other teams.
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I was just going to post this too, you beat me to it Brandon
As for the Josh Wilson trade, Seahawk fans are not happy about this one. Apparently the former 2nd Round pick was a fan favorite by many. Although he has had his struggles, he is still worth more than a 5th Round pick. I think this trade is shocking to many fans and teams. Is he worth a 5th Round pick? Absolutely. He may not be a long term solution given his short stature, but he will imediately help us solidify our CB depth at least for this season and the next couple years. I don’t think TT would have thought that Seattle would give him up for that low of a trade demand though. It would have been nice.
Philly and AZ just swapped their 2 6th Round CB selections in a recent trade as well.
I think this option is worth exploring, but at this point it may be a little too late. IDK what CB’s are out there on the trade block though.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
We’d be in competition with the Vikings now who are probably looking around and kicking some tires after losing another corner for a couple weeks. They might have to line up Jared Allen at corner pretty soon with the rate things are going.
I'm fine with that!
I think Jennings could take him. DD, too.
by gern blanston on Sep 1, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Even if we could do that
I don’t think TT is willing to pay Revis or any other CB $17 Million a year. That’s twice as much as Rodgers’ salary!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Oakland Sux
they totally ruined the market by overpaying for whatshisname Nmadi Osmaogua (or however it’s spelled)
by gern blanston on Sep 1, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Thus making the Oakland Raiders a joke
Props to Al Davis.
Not exactly sure, but I think it’s spelled Nmandi Asomugha.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
In Al’s defense, Asomugha is by far the Raiders best player and should be their highest paid player. However, if Jim Plunkett were to pull a Favre, big Al would for sure make him the highest paid player in the league.
"I agree but dont agree"
by juggernaut400 on Sep 1, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
IMO Asomugha is better than Revis.
And on a team with a D-line that gets less pressure.
Who's leg do I have to hump to get a drink around here?-Brian
I agree that Asomugha is better than Revis
but he is not worth the money Al Davis is paying him! Heck, Philly rejected a trade in McNabb to Oakland in exchange for Asomugha because of his salary alone!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Jim Plunkett? Geez, next Elway will come out of retirement. Any other old QBs you want to drag out? Doug Williams? Trent Dilfer?
The various schools of the Big Ten should let Ohio State and Michigan know in no uncertain terms that dissent will NOT be tolerated.
"Because one of the great minds of the 21st century is raising glow-in-the-dark fish and weaving serapes..." -Leonard Hofstadter from The Big Bang Theory
I give the new Big Ten divisions a 0 and a huge EPIC FAIL sticker.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 1, 2010 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Randy Wright has been offered a contract by the Minnesota Vikings
My hatred of Michigan knows no bounds. Even more so after this travesty.
September 1st, 2010. A day that shall live in infamy.
"Because one of the great minds of the 21st century is raising glow-in-the-dark fish and weaving serapes..." -Leonard Hofstadter from The Big Bang Theory
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 2, 2010 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions
I've got a feeling
that unless the safety position is shored up, we just might be seeing Chillar at some hybrid strong safetly/line backer role again.
I don’t know who’s available, either. It’s also tough to say how much of a panic mode the Packers front office is in, or not. For the life of me, I can’t figure out why Underwood and Lee would have actually regressed – unless they were simply overwhelmed with the added pressure of learning multiple positions. And from the Packers standpoint, why wouldn’t you do that? It’s not a given our secondary won’t have injuries. So, the more you can throw at them and see how they do with it, the better. Yet if the mental load is too much, then you simply can’t do it. The good news is we know they’re not capable of it. The bad news is we have to find someone that is.
CB's
I don’t think Underwood and Lee have regressed. I think they are having growing pains. They are for all intents and purposes rookies. Lee has 5 game experience and about the same for Underwood last season. Lee has also missed alot of the OTA’s both years which is when guys actually learn the techniques and perfect them. Underwood would be the nickel CB, but that shoulder is bothering him. Shields has made more plays than either, but that speaks more to his pure athleticism than it does to anything else. Shields is struggling quite a bit and having growing pains, but most fans overlook that when they see him make an INT.
IMO, Shields has the most potential, followed by Underwood then Lee. Remember too that Lee was drafted in th old Bates/Sanders scheme for his man coverage ability than to play in the more zone oriented Capers D!!! That makes a big difference…
You were just arguing
A month ago you were arguing how we primarily play man
by the yooper on Sep 1, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought we had been… Just read some stuff in the past couple weeks that said Capers used more zone. Personally, I don’t care for zone coverages. Seems to me that its more like playing prevent defense. So your point is???
Don't debate Strohman
He just tries to be contrary, and it’s a lot easier for him to be so since he’s willing to be inconsistent with himself.
Of course zone coverage is a major aspect of a 3-4 defense. It’s not worth arguing about.
WRONG
I don’t just take a contrary point of view! I have my opinions… Apparently you don’t like them. But I have them, just like you. I could care less what yours are, I stick to mine until I learn differently. Which I did in this case and I was big enough to admit it… Feel free to try to point out any inconsistencies.
ktenreb would be the more cotrarian…
Oh, I am contrary
I disliked Thompson’s handling of the Favre fiasco and said so. I dislike the zone blocking system and said so. I think the team needs an upgrade at RB, as well as depth, and have said so. I think that last year’s success is hard to measure because the team played the softest schedule that I can remember, and I have said so. These positions are not popular, but I believed them and I still do. I have shifted my overall disdain for Thompson — while I still think he has made some boneheaded moves (no replacement guards, screwing up the PR fight in the Favre fiasco, Justin Harrell, “fun-with-punters,” etc.), most of those bonehead moves were earlier in his tenure. I can’t think of any legitimate, recent, serious mistakes (other than possibly still not having a legitimate feature back).
So, Strohman — are we in good shape at cornerback or not? I’m having a hard time figuring out your opinion.
Maybe it's me but I'm confused
I’ve seen this type of comment a few times and it puzzles me every time. Can you or anyone else explain to me how Ryan Grant isn’t a “feature back?”
Many of us feel he’s just an average back. He’s never really had anyone to challenge him. He takes what is there and really doesn’t have that something extra that a feature back would have: Elusiveness, burst, speed, etc. He’s just a good back with good skills.
Average RB
Grant is an average RB and alot of his success, IMO is the scheme… Don’t think he could be nearly as good in a power scheme. But Grant is the “feature” RB for the Packers! He is about the only RB who gets carries. So by use he is the featured RB, he just isn’t a special RB.
Yeah I think “feature” maybe wasn’t the term he was going for. I think we both know what he meant though. He IS clearly the feature back, just not an elite back. He’s a feature back just like Thomas Jones was usually a feature back. He gets the job done, not exceptionally but still gets it done.
I think he used the right term...
fetaure RB means he is the only RB that gets carries. The fact that Grant isn’t special is immaterial. You seem to think featured RB means the same as special RB, which I wouldn’t consider true!
"Feature" means "primary" when talking about a RB
At least that’s how it is commonly used.
And yes, I agree with Strohman and TrevorR that Grant is serviceable but not much above average as an NFL running back.
Actually, I think they agree with me, since I said it first on this string.
This part of the string
Goes up to Gern… Follow up to the far left. I don’t know where you said it, but is wasn’t in this part of this string. If you want to be technical… You said you don’t like the zbs and think the Packers need an upgrade at RB, nothing about Grant being a featured RB. And I don’t necessarily agree we need an upgrade. Grant fills his role just fine. With the way McCarthy likes to throw the ball, I don’t think we need a Stud RB. Hopefully Starks could be that though…
Sigh
Even when you agree with me you have to disagree . . . .
Grant
I don’t necessarily agree we need an upgrade. Grant fills his role just fine.
And, even if it is because of the scheme (which ktenreb dislikes, and has said so), here is what Grant has brought to the table since winning the starting position with his Monday night performance against Denver in 2007:
Beginning with (and including, for those who need the redundancy) that game against the Broncos, when Grant replaced Wynn in the second quarter, the Packers have played 42 regular season games.
Grant has played in all 42, with 37 starts.
Including the non-starts, Grant has averaged 80.6 yards per game, or 1,289 yards per 16 games.
Putting that further into perspective, during the 1960s and 1970s, when they played a 14-game schedule, and the milestone had a little more meaning than it does today, a running back had only to average 71.5 ypg in order to achieve a 1,000-yard season; Grant’s 14-game average has been 1,128 yards.
And, here is something else to consider:
Grant’s current streak of 291 consecutive regular season carries without a fumble is the longest active such streak in the NFL, something that a “serviceable but not much above average” running back just doesn’t do!
(So, I have to disagree with that label, just on that fact alone.)
Ball security – another key component of a championship-caliber offense!
In my opinion, we do, indeed, have “a legitimate feature back.”
And, you’re right, Stroh.
We don’t need an upgrade.
-
The glass is way more than half-full.
I would say you disliked Thompson cuz he had to deal w/ the Favre situation! Hell I would go so far as to say you disliked Thompson LONG before the Favre situation! And exactly what did THompson do wrong? He didn’t bad mouth Favre… He told Favre he could still play and the Packers wanted him at the end of the season. He was willing to take Favre back 3 weeks after the retirement til #4 changed his mind yet again! Favre put the Packers in a no-win situation, thats on Favre NOT thompson and Thompson made a difficult and unpopular decision… One I supported from the beginning!!!
Dislike the zbs if you want, but its here to stay and nearly half the teams in the NFL use it regularly. TO me scheme is irrelevant. Its up to the players to execute it!
Packers schedule might have been relatively easy last year, so what does that make the viqueens?!! Just as easy!!! Don’t hear you slamming them for having a soft schedule.
Do I think we are in good shape at CB right now? Yeah, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be growing pains! Lee was drafted for the old Bates/Sanders press scheme so it would be expected that he is going to struggle in zone. Underwood played in 5 games so he’s still practically a rookie. Shields and Burnett are rookies… They all have alot to learn. Are they going to be stellar this year? No. Are they going to be average this year. Yes. Will they learn and get alot better as the year progresses? Absolutely.
If you draft a rookie CB in the 1st, he’s still just another rookie that is not necessarily better than what we already have! If you draft a CB late its unlikely he is even going to contribute more than what we have. If you sign a FA you have to give up on one of the young guys with the potential to get better and you get at best an adequate player w/ no potential… I’ll take the young guys w/ potential and live w/ the growing pains over the vet who is at best adequate w/ no potential.
FOr every acttion there is an equal an opposite reaction. pick up a FA and lose a CB w/ potential. Its no different than what Thompson has done w/ every other position. But CB take time to develop.
If your having a hard time figuring my opinion your not reading or comprehending very well! I usually state it loud and clear!!!
disliking Thompson
I would say you disliked Thompson cuz he had to deal w/ the Favre situation! Hell I would go so far as to say you disliked Thompson LONG before the Favre situation!
Agreed.
Ever since I joined the ‘pro-TT/anti-TT’ argument nearly four years ago (under my original screen name at the Press-Gazette, against the likes of K-bro and Loftking, lol), I have always believed that there was a certain segment of fans who turned against Thompson when he had to let Wahle and Rivera go as part of the beginning of cleaning up Sherman’s salary cap fiasco, and then refused to let it go (even when hindsight, with its 20-20, telescopic, x-ray vision, showed that letting them go was absolutely the right thing to do, for more than just the salary-cap reason)!
Those people’s hatred of Thompson ran/runs so deep that they are against anything that he does, regardless of whether or not they would be otherwise.
To them, if TT did something, then that fact alone automatically made it a bad thing, to be added to their woodpile of fuel for their burning hatred of TT.
Now, most of those folks have disowned the Packers, and followed Bertt, first to the Jets, and then, to the ’queens.
But, some of them linger and still allegedly cling to their Packers fandom, even if they do often sound as though they secretly want the Packers to lose, just so that they can be right in their hatred of TT.
-
The glass is way more than half-full.
Exactly, Zone Defense is what makes the 3-4 click
There is little point in switching to the 3-4 if we intended on only using man coverage. 3-4 is used BEST when we can utilize zone blitzes. That is the creativity and unpreditability coming in.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Not true
Baltimore played the 34 and had a press man coverage scheme! And Capers himself said his D can play any coverage.
Baltimore
Plays a lot of hybrid formations and with 4 linemen with their hands on the ground now. It’s a little different. Pittsburgh is the opposite. NE used to be as well, but they are also going in the direction of having 4 guys with their hands on the ground in certain situations.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
didn't say now...
I said PLAYED as in when they played the 34 and had McCallister and Rolle at CB. They were a 34 team that used press man coverage the majority of the time. There is absolutely no reason why you can’t play man or zone coverage in a 34. When you utilize zone blitzs on specific plays then obviously your in a zone coverage. But you can line up in a 34 D and play press man, off man or any zone coverage at any time. Non is what make the 34 D “click”, to use your term.
3-4 defenses tend to use a lot of zone coverage because the secondary is in a more comfort level and are in a better position to force more turnovers. It works hand in hand with the LB’s being involved in exotic blitzes that force pressure on the QB, which is a part of the zone blitzes. Man to Man Coverage is indeed used in 3-4 defenses, but it is basically a compliment to the zone coverages (in most schemes) and to catch the QB off guard by being unpredictable.
Mike Nolan and Rex Ryan are 2 of Baltimore’s most popular Defensive Coordinators over the past decade. Ryan is best known for his exotic blitz packages in a 3-4 Cover 2 defense, which is another version of a Zone Blitz. Nolan is also a very aggressive DC having a strong reputation for being unpredictable and he loves to blitz his ILB’s (much like Capers). I couldn’t dig too much out of what Nolan prefers to use (man or zone) as it seemed to be about 50/50, only mixing it up often and blitzing 5 often, including the CB’s.
I went through several sites on their philosophies and provided a few, even one from the ever so famous wikipedia. haha! Am I saying that we can win strictly out of zone? No, I’m not. I want a balanced defensive scheme that features both zone and man coverage. Our turnovers will come mostly from zone defense though! Zone defense has holes, but it’s designed to read, react, and get turnovers. That’s what this defense needs! Our secondary depth is not the greatest to rely heavily upon Man Coverage, so we need to get as many turnovers as possible. I noticed how Capers began using zone more and more last year, and I think he’ll continue to do the same this year. Often times, these 3-4 DC’s will dial up these exotic blitz packages in a zone blitz scheme because the heavy pressure will cover up the lack of skilled players in the secondary. The QB basically has a couple seconds to determine where the hole in the zone defense is, and if he can’t find it soon, he’s doomed. Man Coverage is used more often when only 4 are targeting the QB. This isn’t always the case, but is common. Capers, Lebeau, Ryan, and Nolan have long loved to bring 5 guys. Capers hinted that he provided more plays to the defense since we are in the 2nd year of his system, which I can only imagine is more exotic blitzes of 5+ guys, which means more zone coverage. That will hopefully help cover up our lack of depth in the secondary (IF we can get to the QB).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%E2%80%934_defense
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/26/1647998/nolans-defensive-philosophy-gets.html
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/tag/_/name/mike-nolan
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Revis Island
It doesnt’ get that name cuz he’s in zone coverage! He plays press man almost exclusively! Its also why they went out and got Cromartie… NYJets played almost exclusively press man last year and this year w/ having Cromartie and Wilson on board, both of which are press CB I don’t see them playing any zone! Seems like Rex Ryan favors press man over zone to me…
From the Miami Herald aticle on Nolan…
“The Dolphins success will depend heavily on the secondary holding up one on one.” Don’t know about you but that indicates man coverage to me…
Nothing is the wikipedia article says zone coverage dominates 34 Defenses.
You said… “3-4 defenses tend to use a lot of zone coverage because the secondary is in a more comfort level and are in a better position to force more turnovers.”
I would think the secondaries comfort level is dependent on what they do best. Harris is more comfortable in press man coverage, Woodson can play either and makes plays in both. Williams I think can be good in both, but won’t excel in either.
As for the turnovers, it would stand to reason that Being able to look at the QB would allow for more INT’s. Thats pretty basic stuff intuitively. In man coverage you don’t look at the QB or for the ball until the reciever does.
Woah man. It’s called Revis Island because Revis does his job in the area he’s defending! Rex Ryan is most famous for his Cover 2 3-4 D. He has his secondary playing a LOT of zone coverage!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Sorry gotta disagree w/ ya on this!
You just don’t get the moniker Revis Island by being sound in zone coverage!!! Jets play almost strictly press man! An "island’ is used when the CB is straight man coverage.
When you have a talented corner like Revis, you work your scheme around the talent you have. The packers did this for years, electing to keep the bump coverage (despite the league making rules left and right to discourage it) because Harris was so adept at it. I’ve seen Revis in zone, but honestly running a zone would be a waste of talent over there. If Revis goes away though, maybe things change??
Except
They also traded for Cromartie and drafted Wilson who are both considered man CB, not zone CB. Its pretty well known that Cromartie doesn’t like to play zone, he wants the challenge of man on man. Wilson was used almost strictly in press man coverage at Boise St. So the CB, even w/o Revis are going to be in man. They’re just missing the best man CB in the league. And I don’t think Ryan gives up his agressive pursuit of the QB!!!
No that's a easy one
Revis matches up man to man withe the teams best reciever and normally the rest of the of the secondary plays man also.
Gang Green Nation has spoken
Revis plays almost exclusively man to man coverage, usually w/ no safety help over the top. Something the Packers don’t even do for Harris or Woodson. Also said that Rex Ryan loves his man coverage! And that when you blitz you have to play man behnd it, since you don’t have enough men to play zone! Similar to what I said in the post below…
Point Proven
Do you have a link to that? I’m curious. I’m interested now because all i ever hear of Rex Ryan is his popular Cover 2 3-4 D. I wonder if he just adjusted it accordingly to Revis’ abilities.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
No need for the link, i found it
+1 for you.
It still is interesting though considering his reputation. By the way, I never said he plays only zone. I thought that’s what he was most famous for, and tended to use that more often.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Reputation
I always thought his reputation, like his father, was for aggressiveness in pressuring the QB. Doing that is a 34 D means heavy blitzing, which necessitates man coverage behind it… Thats the only reputation I remember for Ryan… Bring the heat on the QB!
You don't have to play man to blitz
You do one of two things, you hope you get to the quarterback before he and the reciever find the whole in the zone. so your trying to disguise your blitz for two reasons, one obviously so your blitzer isn’t picked up or blocked because they know where your coming from and two so they don’t know where the open hole is. Big plays often happen.
But another thing a team blitzing playing zone will do and this is where a defense will often get big plays from. A defender will shift into the hole the blitzer vacated and this can be done in so many, many different ways. These are schemes hopefully our defense now knows well or are being expanded on.
Expanding on the Jets Revis often had safety help over the top, I don’t know where I read it but it was during that Woodson Revis hype and they were comparing the two. I think it was done by football outsiders. I don’t remember the percentage but he’s not quite the island they make him out to be.
Read the Gang Green Nation fanpost
According to them Revis rarely had any safety help over the top! And from what I saw of his play, I would tend to agree. Revis is a better man cover CB than Woodson. Woodson is the better playmaker and all around player!
Blitzing (5 or more rushers) leaves only 6 in coverage and while you can play zone behind it, you leave FAR too much open territory. Almost all teams when they blitz play man coverage. And usually press man to slow the recievers release into his route. Blitzing and press coverage pretty much go hand in hand. Good QB’s, who often see the blitz coming even if its disguised, would pick the zone apart!!! Thats one trait that seperates the great QB, is the ability to recognize and anticipate the blitz. Playing zone behind it would be a disaster waiting to happen.
Also if you move someone into the vacated area of the blitzer it is pretty much assumed its a zone blitz! Which I discussed earlier…
Caper zone blitz
Its called the zone blitz cuz the Defense overloads an area of the offense w/ blitzers. And has a DL drop into zone coverage. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the secondary is playing zone coverage.
Generallly when you blitz your playing man defense behind it… A blitz means bringing extra rushers into the pass rush. With more guys in pass rush, you can’t play zone cuz it will have alot more open spaces. THe zone blitz is a little different in that it doesn’t always have more than 4 pass rushers. Just that they are overloading a zone of the OL and the DL that drops plays a zone. But the defense as a whole doesn’t have to play zone coverage. It could be a combination coverage.
I would really like to see some real stats on how much man and zone coverage the Packers played last year! That would be telling… We’ll have to watch really closely to determine what they do this year! Disguise is a 34 feature… Of that there is no doubt.
That was provided here by another user about a month ago. I do recall you for one being a little surprised with how often our D played zone, but I don’t remember the stats last year in how often he called for zone and man. Nor do I think I can find a link for that. In reference to it being beneficial to our players, Zone is most beneficial to: Collins, Burnett, and Woodson. Man is most beneficial to Harris, Williams, Bigby, and Lee. We really don’t know what is the best for Underwood and Shields given their lack of experience. Considering Capers eventually wants to get this defense more familiar with zone schemes and the fact that Harris and Bigby are out for the first 6 weeks, don’t be surprised to see an increase in zone coverage. I know you don’t like it, and I know I aint gonna convince you otherwise, but don’t be surprised.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I remember....
A pretty heated discussion about it… But I don’t ever recall any conclusive end to the discussion one way or the other! If you say majority wins, maybe your right. But I dont generally subscribe to that sentiment! I will say I’ve read some things recently that seem to support your position, but I’m hardly convinced by public sentiment. I’m convinced by facts!
As far as which coverage is good for whom. Like I mentioned Harris cut his teeth playing Press man. Woodson is proficient in both, played mostly press man in Oak. WIlliams can do both but, but mostly learned press from Harris and Wood and plays neither exceptionally well. Collins grew up in the Press coverage scheme, so I wouldn’t go so far as to say zone favors him. In fact, in the Bates/Sanders scheme the CB played man, but the safeties played zone. So safeties are immaterial. Press and Off man is almost strictly a CB coverage, not having much, if anything to do w/ how the safeties play, unless they are on the TE.
BTW – Just made a fanpost over at the Jets site about Revis Island! I’m almost 100% sure the “island” refers to man coverage!!! We should find out soon.
zone blitz
my understanding of the general concept behind the zone blitz is that they overload a particular area (or zone) of the OLine by bringing more guys than there are blockers. Someone from the non blitzing zone then drops to cover the responsbilities of the blitzer. So, you haven’t really harmed your passing coverage – other than to have a lesser skilled an unexpected person doing that task. That’s part of the disguise portion of it that you refer to.
With that in mind, you have the option to play behind it whatever scheme you want to – depending upon who is blitzing, of course. Long story short, I think you’re both correct.
by gern blanston on Sep 3, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
For the zone blitz... yeah.
In general a blitz, not a zone blitz, brings more players into the pass rush, leaving fewer to play coverage. That makes it necessary to play man coverage, and maybe having a safety over the top for help. In a 34 D I don’t consider rushing one OLB a blitz. Its still only bringing 4 rushers and leaves 7 for coverage. IMO, A blitz, again not a zone blitz, is bringing 5 or more…
Sure, we could trade for a CB.
And I could fly to the moon on gossamer wings.
I’m actually okay with Shields in there. I know he’s raw, and he’s going to make mistakes. But, couple of things…
1) there’s only one way for a CB to get experience.
2) he’s got Woodson and Collins out there guiding him and making sure he doesn’t lose his confidence.
3) most of all, I think he’s got enough talent so that, at some point, he’ll have the tools to go out and do something about it when he gets tired of getting picked on. Kinda’ like Tramon Williams was his first year as the nickel. He screwed up alot, but, every once in awhile he’d come up with a pick or a nice play. This is what players do, as opposed to “just guys” like Jarrett, Ahmad, et. al. Players make plays. Every new corner is going to get picked on, but eventually the good ones make enough plays so that opposing QBs start to respect them enough to back off a little bit. I think Shields can earn this sort of respect sooner than later. …and he’s only got to survive for 6 weeks, so… I say put the kid in.
Giants Fan Here....Have a quick question
How is Bulaga working out for you guys?
I heard he won’t be starting coming outta pre season….but I also heard that he was hurt and dealing with a hip….
what’s the story with this kid? I was pretty high on him around draft time….
Is he going to play T or G? Is he healthy now? What are your thoughts on him???
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
Just noticed the fan post....I"ll go check out the comments section.
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
He’s looked good when he’s been in. They gave him the opportunity to challenge the incumbent starter, Daryn Colledge, at LG, and it was close until Bulaga hurt his hip. Now it looks like they’re going to let him sit behind Clifton at LT, heal up and learn.
…which is where he should’ve been the whole time, in my opinion.
But, yeah, he’s doing well. GREAT footwork, in my opinion.
by Curly Lambeau on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I wanted the Giants to take him....
he seems like a grade A bad ass too…..you need those guys on the outside.
"If I'm curt, then I apologize" - Newman
I’d say his stint challenging for the LG worked out in the best possible way. He’s a 1st round rookie, so you don’t want him just sitting there doing nothing. Really, you want him learning the tackle spot to take over if and when Clifton gets injured. But there’s no way to say that to him. So, you’ve gotta’ give him something to do, an immediate challenge. The way it worked out, he got the work in while challenging Colledge, he got a snap-shot of what the guard position is doing in our offense, but he also saw that winning a starting spot isn’t so easy after all (Colledge is nothing if not a scrappy competitor when his back is against the wall), and now he’s maybe got some renewed dedication to get himself ready to take over at LT when the time comes.
Everybody wins.
by Curly Lambeau on Sep 1, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Bulaga
Yeah, he also leads the team with 15 Homers so far… (14 doing BP at Miller Park & and monster shot to win a team building HR contest in camp).
by The Delivery Guy on Sep 2, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
More on Bulaga
I think our GM’s theory now is to find guys we’ll need later… and not rush them into starting. If it looks like they can answer the bell day one fine, but the Packer’s preference is not to do so.
by The Delivery Guy on Sep 2, 2010 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
eh...perhaps
My understanding of Thompson’s philosophy is that he drafts the best guy available on the board regardless of position. That’s why he picked Quarless, for example. His rational, whether you agree with it or not is another story, is that you never know who’s going to get injured. You therefore don’t shy away from a guy just becuase you think you’re deep at that position. I think you can see a trend in when they go for the higher need picks, they tend to make mistakes and maybe reach for a guy, or overvalue his skills. Wolf did it with Vonnie Holliday. He had Randy Moss rated higher but was concernd about character and felt we were deep at WR.
He then attempts to keep the guys that fit in and perform well. He’ll pay them market if he feels they’re worth it. He’s not necessarily cheap in that regard. Thompson tends to feel that free agency is to make up for holes in your drafting.
Bottom line is he’s trying to create competition becuase that’s how the roster gets deeper. Some of those younger guys will win, some will not. In the case of Burnett, he wins by default. In the case of Bulaga (whom I like), injuries kind of dealt that hand.
by gern blanston on Sep 2, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Brandon and everyone else...
the best way to help our cornerback situation is to generate a pass rush! WE should be fishing for a pass rush specialist of some sort! I am telling you, even Woodson got beat for two touchdowns in the ARizona game. Those guys can’t last forever if we don’t generate a pass rush.
New Orleans gave us the blue print when they beat Warner, Favre and Manning back-to-to-back: Harrass, beat up, slap around the opposing QB.
Having said that, the thought of Shields being our starting nickel back for even just a few weeks SCARES THE CRAP OUT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is a good point but...
At this point which are you more likely to get? Really that’s the CB.
The three most important and difficult to find positions for a team are QB, LT, and pass rusher. Once those guys emerge they don’t become available unless there is a total train wreck in the FO and that goes double right before the season is about to start.
Other positions like CB, S, or RB a move can be made and a guy sitting on the bench can be had for the right price. I would imagine that this is what is driving the CB discussion more then the pass rusher position.
by PackApologist on Sep 1, 2010 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Fact is.....
we need BOTH a pass rush AND a CB. Woodson isnt getting any younger and it took a POY from him to get us where we got last yr. And, as noted, he got burned a few times too late last yr. Dont think that Harris’s return is gonna help that much, he wont be the same player. Without Clay, we have no pass rush. Maybe Neal will come along, but that’s a maybe. TT did nothing to shore up the CBs or the rush this yr. Maybe guys like Neal, Sheilds and Morgan will work out eventually, but not this yr. We were so close last yr., I’m kinda disappointed we stood pat.
by bigbill992001 on Sep 1, 2010 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Offensive interference
…even Woodson got beat for two touchdowns in the ARizona game.
No, Woodson didn’t get beat; he got mauled!
-
The glass is way more than half-full.
It's more serious than you think
Take an inventory of what we have in the secondary:
Woodson is as solid as they come.
Collins has been to a couple of Pro Bowls. I don’t think he played as good last year as his reputation would suggest, but he’s still very good.
Williams moves from the nickel to starting at CB. This is a definite downgrade. I have serious concerns about how he will hold up. He has not played very well in the preseason, and lest you forget, the Cardinals ate him alive last year in the playoff game.
Burnett is a rookie and he will make a lot of mistakes. The silver lining is that he is replacing Bigby, who did not have a good year last year due to injuries (regarding Bigby, I’m afraid he’s one of those flame-out safeties who plays so recklessly he is only good for a year or two. Chuck Cecil is an example of that).
An undrafted free agent likely will win the nickel position. Pat Lee is looking more like a second-round bust. Underwood, even when healthy, underwhelmed.
The problem with trying to trade for a CB is that there really aren’t very many worth trading for. If a team has a CB with talent, or with promise of talent, they’ll keep him on the roster and use him on special teams rather than give him away.
Cecil
There are plenty of examples of what you’re talking about (e.g. Bob Sanders, Polumalu), but Chuck isn’t one of ’em, in my opinion.
He was a guy who led with his helmet. That was his entire game. Skinny white guy who used his helmet as a weapon. It was right after his breakout year that the NFL changed the rules so that you couldn’t do that anymore. That’s why he flamed out in AZ.
So, it’s similar to what you’re talking about, but, whereas most safeties wear out their entire body, Cecil just took his whole life in his hands everytime he made a tackle. …and everybody else’s life too, btw.
(I recognize this because this is kind of player I was. Once I got to college and tried to play this way, I just about wrecked myself, because I’d been using that crutch to compete even though I didn’t really have the talent for it. You can tackle anybody if you put the crown of your helmet into their facemask, but it’s… not a good idea.)
by Curly Lambeau on Sep 1, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Mike Brown for the Bears a few years ago would be the best example of what you’re talking about, ktenreb.
by Curly Lambeau on Sep 1, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Agree about trading
Trading for a corner is very tough because no one has corners laying around their not going to use. I know Baltimore has been hurting there at corner since the start of training camp to the point many thought they were so weak there it could be a season wrecker. I know they have been scouring rosters for 6 weeks for a corner suprised they found one from Seattle.
I’m hopeful Lee and Underwood are part of the so called vanilla effect everyone talks about in preseason. Three weeks ago I was real high on both of them.
Yup, this is pretty much what I'm thinking
In the last few days I’ve lost pretty much all confidence in Pat Lee. I think the nail in the coffin was Shields passing him up. Shields has been a nice find, but an undrafted rookie beating out a former second round pick who has a couple years in the league? Come on.
Add on top of that an undrafted rookie having an honest shot at a starting position on defense? Ok, now it’s panic time.
If these three stay healthy (those that make the team that is) I think the Packers can muddle through, but I have the feeling the secondary is not going to be pretty this year. Hopefully Burnett can grow into the job and beat out Bigby once he gets back from injury. Add on top of that Shields showing that he can play with the big boys and the future looks bright.
The problem with this type of analysis? We need to start winning now. Putting out guys like this doesn’t help us keep pace and compete for a Super Bowl this year.
by PackApologist on Sep 1, 2010 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Very Frustrating
I gave up on Underwood long ago. I only gave him a remote chance because of all the “praise” he was receiving for improvement. Yet, he didn’t improve. He is just as bad as he was last year. I thought Pat Lee would take his job. Although I don’t think Lee is terrible, he has been disapointing to a degree. Hopefully they both prove to everyone they are more than capable of being starting NFL CB’s.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
The most frustrating part
To me what boggles my mind is that Underwood has generally outplayed Lee. Granted that Underwood has given up more plays than Lee so far, but he’s also made more plays too. Lee has made a couple tackles and that’s it. Underwood at least has a pick or two this pre-season. Either way, neither of these two is really making the grade if Shields has a reasonable chance to unseat them.
by PackApologist on Sep 1, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
out of position
how much of the struggles of both Underwood and Lee can be attributed to them playing more than they “normally” would? I.e. Underwood is a nickel. he’s been asked to play starting CB at times. Is he simply overwhelmed with the mental aspects of the game at this point? Will it be easier for him if he were stay at nickel or dime?
I’m very frustrated with this situation as well (and will go home and have a nice drink in a little while)
by gern blanston on Sep 1, 2010 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Underwood vs Lee
It’s tough to really argue who is better than who at this point, although Underwood has the edge according to the coaches. It’s difficult in analyzing CB stats though, because the stats only come if they are targeted. If the CB is not targeted, then the CB either did a good job in covering his guy or someone else seriously blew his own coverage and caught the QB’s eyes first. Underwood was targeted a lot more than Lee, but Underwood played a little more snaps than Lee too.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
I think the CB’s will be really good in the long run! Especially SHields and Underwood. If you believe everything the FO tells you during OTA’s your being nieve… Of course the FO is going to talk the youngsters up during OTA’s… Build up their confidence so when it gets rattled a little in pre and regular season their confidence isn’t shot! Shields and Underwood will be fine. Lee was drafted to be a press CB under the old Bates/Sanders scheme to be physical at the LOS, but isn’t nearly as good in zone like Capers uses… Thats all part of drafting for the scheme.
They’re all going to have growing pains!!! Shields is making more plays cuz he has 1st rd talent athletically. So that covers up his mistakes in the fans eyes! Not saying we won’t likely draft a CB next year, cuz you can never have enough…
Could the Packers theoretically sign Chris McAlister?
He’s getting up there, but he made plays for New Orleans (in the only games they played him in).\ last year.
The various schools of the Big Ten should let Ohio State and Michigan know in no uncertain terms that dissent will NOT be tolerated.
"Because one of the great minds of the 21st century is raising glow-in-the-dark fish and weaving serapes..." -Leonard Hofstadter from The Big Bang Theory
I give the new Big Ten divisions a 0 and a huge EPIC FAIL sticker.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 1, 2010 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
The guy from FL knows what he's talking about
Forget the CBs, go out and get some pass rush instead. As he pointed out, think Saints. Or better yet, think ‘86 Bears who won the SB with marginal corners and safeties. Any good QB can beat any DB given enough time but the Bert Farves can’t hurt you if they’re on their butts, or better yet, in the locker room getting smelling salts.
Listen to him, he’s gotta be smarter than us. When we’re up here freezing our butts off in parkas, he’s soaking up sun and watching babes wearing shorts and bikini tops.
by Egbert Souse on Sep 1, 2010 4:18 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I was just in FL
lots of overweight people riding around on scooters. I’d rather NOT see them in a bikinis!
(but yes, your point is still valid)
by gern blanston on Sep 1, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I live in Florida
and I agree that having a pass rush is a good thing. It’s just not quite so easy to generate one.
pass rush does nothing if they are throwing on a three step drop and we still can’t stop them like Cleveland did in the first game!
That's when Capers calls for more Press Coverage
Which he didn’t do, and instead played a vanilla defense. It was clear that no adjustments were ever made in the game.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
eh…I don’t think anyone thought we were set. I do think some people though Lee and Underwood would be able to step up their game and that Harris would spring right back like a 25 year old and resume playing at the top of his game. None of those things happened. Its almost a worst case scenario now.
Calculated risk FAIL!
I really like Tramon Williams
I still don’t think the downgrade from Harris to Williams is much, if at all. The bigger issue is going from a nfl-caliber starting cb at nickel to Sam UnderLee. A good corner is tough to find, but I’d feel better if the Packers could trade for a steady veteran at nickel.
Underwood hasn't looked good all preseason
and Jarrett Bush would look better bagging groceries than what he has been. Hopefully TT will surprise us and find us a decent CB who can at least fill the position until Al Harris comes back.
"You just don't know understand how frustrating this is"- Kevin Borseth
Harris
I’m very skeptical of the “I can’t wait for Harris to return” talk. Let’s face it, Harris was basically a broken bone away from totally amputating his leg las year. I think every tendon in his knee was torn or ruptured.
Don’t get me wrong, I wish him the best and hope he returns. But honestly, I’m not too sure he will ever be close to the player he once was.
I hope I am wrong. But my gut feeling…….
I am with you. The guy is what 35? He ripped up his entire leg last year and lets face it, he’s in the downside of his career. I just don’t see how anyone would have confidence in him returning at a high level. I really really hope he does though!
It would be surprising
Harris was a Pro Bowl caliber CB, but you are right, the injury he sustained was gruesome. If anybody can recover from that, Harris can, but I’m not so sure he will ever be the same. I predict, however, that he won’t settle for being a nickel or dime back; either he will come back all the way, or he will retire.
They better get a CB..... or two.
When I posted a few weeks ago that the CB depth was horrible behind Woodson & Harris, all the homers on here jumped all over me.
Now that Harris is gonna miss the first 6 games – they are officially screwed.
And if/when Harris comes back, how effective can he be??? Not much, IMO.
Sherman traded a 2nd round pick to Philly to get Harris, who was a great backup, but wasn’t gonna be the starter there – TT needs to do the same thing – or Matthew Stafford will look like John Elway when we play him.
shields
if shields were a 2nd round pick from this draft, would it be as scary? Afterall, he is faster than any second round CB, I don’t know about the other combine related stuff, but my guess he holds his own with all CB’s – and not only does he have 2 picks in the preseason, but he almost has to be leading the packers camp in picks too.
A ? for you guys who know more detail – will shields always play LCB when he plays, moving woodson to the inside or to the nickel?
athletically
Athletically Shields is a 1st rd draft pick! Faster, quicker… Everyone is upset w/ the fact that the Packers didnt’ address the CB position… But they DID… THey did it w/ an undrafted FA who has 1st rd CB athletic ability. He just happens to be inexperienced as a CB! Shields is starter material, IMO, In a couple years!
Shields
It wouldn’t be scary or comfortable. We drafted Pat Lee in the 2nd Round, and I don’t think many fans would feel comfortable with him being our Nickel Back. Shields has the skills to be a 2nd Round pick, but his inexperience does not warrant the selection. If anything, we become heavy critics of TT for overpicking an inexperienced player and become a little tough on Shields in the process. What we get now, is the excitement of watching a player trying to make an NFL team, climb the depth chart, and strive for greatness in the process. He is working from the bottom of the chart, and had nothing handed to him like many 1st Round picks get.
I think Shields will play as the LCB because Capers loves blitzing Woodson. However, given Shields speed and athleticism, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Capers experimenting with Shields more often in the CB blitz. After all, Shields would get there a little quicker than Woodson! Maybe 50/50 between Shields in the slot or LCB position.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
agreed
I feel the same way about Zombo – not necessarily as far as the talent, but the enjoyment of watching the underdog scratch and claw his way onto the team through hard work rather than “just” talent. I also feel that way about Tramon Williams. I think that’s the story of Al Harris and Atari Bigby, too. I’d like to see them all succeed because they worked hard and earned it. Aaron Kampman transformed himself from a little known 5th rounder to a pro bowler the same way.
(For some reason, I have grown tired of Bigby though. I can’t say why.)
by gern blanston on Sep 3, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Tired of Bigby?
Probably becuz of his injuries and the fact he skipped the offseason looking for a new contract!!! And then his ankle still wasn’t right when he got back… Think that might have something to do w/ being tired of Bigby?
I still like him and think he is our best bet at Safety when he returns. Wouldn’t mind seeing him given a new contract either, but thats highly unlikely! Wonder what Thompson does w/ him… Seems too good, IMO, to just release… Hope he can find a way to engineer a trade for him, even though he’ll be a FA.
Shields may or may not pan out - but how does that affect this year???
Overall, I think TT is a solid GM – but he has a hard time admitting his mistakes – and he’s made a big one this year in groosly over-estimating the talent [or lack of] behing Woodson & Harris.
The Packers WILL get lit up by quality passing teams.
Which is a shame, because the Offense is championship caliber, IMO – and Rodgers might even be MVP.
Every GM has to make calculated risks
TT is just getting it more and more now because his team is now a Superbowl caliber team. With that in mind, it’s a little more difficult to be patient with him. More people are ansy for results now. The CB situation was a failed calculated risk. I didn’t think it was a bad one to make from the beginning. We upgraded several other positions and agreed with his mindset: 1. Tramon Williams was looking like a capable starter, so he should continue to develop
2. Pat Lee is a former 2nd Round Pick, so he does have skills. He’s young, but he should develop.
3. Brandon Underwood is very athletic. Had he not had issues with his first college, he could have been a first day draft pick. Given a year in our system, he should develop.
4. Shields is blazing fast and very athletic. Has WR instincts and shouldn’t be beat deep. He’s a very good project for Capers.
The problem….the should’s have not looked too promising through Preseason. Is this uncommon? No way! Ever GM has it, and when the “shoulds” do work out, they get praise. While TT gets many praises in different positions, he fell short in this one. He can’t be perfect. No GM is perfect! All we can hope for at this point is our offense continues to click and Capers can do just enough to get turnovers and continue to stop the run.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
You think its a failed calculated risk.
I dont agree… We haven’t even played a meaningful NFL game yet and your already calling it a failed risk?! Why don’t we let them play real NFL games before we define it as a failed risk! Its a calculated risk ,but we have absolutely no idea if its failed until the games are played and the season ends!
If the young CB improve alot and help the Packers win a SB I would say it was a HUGE success! If we make the playoffs and the young CB PROVE to be the absolute reason why then maybe it can be called a failure.
Good Point
It looks as if it failed through Preseason, which doesn’t matter. Maybe jumping a little too soon on a failed attempt, so hopefully the CB’s improve as the season progresses.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
CB inexperience
Young, inexperienced CB can only get better by playing and usually being allowed to make mistakes. As humans we don’t generally learn from success,. but from our failures. Maybe the coaching staff put the young CB in a position to fail in the preseason to learn from their mistakes now, as much as possible. But when the season starts they will be put in position to succeed. If I were a coach I would do that to some degree…
What about Buckley?
He ended up becoming a very good CB later… Just not his rookie season, or w/ the Packers for that matter. Took him longer, all progress at their own rate.
Games haven’t even begun and your jumping ship already, just cuz the CB are inexperienced…
I don’t know if I would go with VERY good…but I’ll give you good. He was always a ball hawker, it was his propensity to give up big plays that always haunted him with us.
That and he didn't make alot of big plays w/ us too...
He did turn out to be more than just a good CB. At his best he was very good, IMO. With the Pats he was a terrific nickel CB.
Toast Buckley
had to get over his own ego and become coachable before he could turn his career around. He had many of the skills necessary to make it in the league (except height, of course)
the same cannot be said about Ahmad Carroll, however.
by gern blanston on Sep 3, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Have to agree w/ that...
Buckleys biggest problem in GB was his own ego!!! And he did eventually become a darn good player. Loved watching him at FSU… He was a STUD CB in college.
talent
There is alot of young talent behind Wooson, Williams and Harris. Its inexperienced, but does that mean its not talented? You apparently do… The talent is there it is just going to take a time for the talent to shine.
before i weigh in on this
i would like to say greetings to all you devoted packer backers.
the 3 most abused words describing a young man entering the nfl
1. athletic
2. talented
3. potential
one would think that if you get drafted or get invited to an nfl camp, that player posesses all 3 qualities————-the difference is does that talent/athletic/potential equate to the nfl game or just a very good colledge player. right now(imo) we have 2 nfl caliber DB’s (woodson and collins) and the rest are just very good colledge players right now.
the problem is that how long do the packers wait for these kids to develope? 2-3 years? by that time woodson will be a shell of his former self and he will have to be replaced. the guy stepping in for him will not be an upgrade from woodson’s glory days. (imo) that db that replaces woodson in a couple years is not on this roster, meaning, he will not have the same impact as woodson has had with the packers.
It's to early to panic
I felt the 1st 2 preseason games we played extremely loose zone coverage and it showed. Both Delhomme and Haselbeck were able to convert quick passes down field because we played so off the recievers. It looked like they were playing a prevent almost, keeping everything in front of them but letting them drive down the field comfortably. I thought it was more about how they lined up in the scheme that allowed the success of Cleveland’s and Seattle’s passing game.
Hey, in the last game we played tighter coverage and besides some communication issues. After we settled down we were getting the Colts off the field. That was Peyton Manning and Reggie Wayne they make everyone look sick. I thought our DB’s didn’t play that badly. Give it a couple regular season games where we are game planning to stop a specific offense before you jump off a bridge.
Packers need depth at CB
I think if the eagles decide to cut/trade Macho Harris, the packers should be knocking at his door. Macho Harris is capable of playing cornerback or safety, both are position where we lack depth. He actually fell out of discussion when he went down with a hamstring injury early in camp. We would definitely be able to use him, after he picks up the playbook, at a backup safety/cornerback spot. I know the eagles and packers might not want to trade players when they will be playing each other in about a week. But if I was Ted Thompson I would possible spitz for macho harris….other players I would be looking at when Saturday comes is chad simpson rb/kr-bills, Travis laboy olb-sf, Marques Douglas de- miami, Brandon McDonald cb-cle, Alex hall olb-nyg, and Fred Bennett cb-sd. Another team that I would give a call about a cb is the bengals. The begals have great depth at cb. I would see if they were willing to part ways with morgan Trent and David jones. They are 4th and 5th on the depth chart respectively. David jones their primary nickel back in 08 might be easier to pull away because Morgan trent had 3 ints in one preseason game a couple of weeks ago.
by PACK3RS on Sep 3, 2010 2:03 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
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