Trade Bait and updates
by TrevorR on Sep 2, 2010 7:29 AM CDT
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PrintWe've been talking a lot on here about trading players and acquire picks or depth for the roster. Seems some of the local media have gotten on board too! Bob McGinn of the Journal-Sentinal just wrote about how Breno Giocomni may be on the blocks right now as the Packers now seem to have a few young guys at the tackle positions. He'd be appealing to other teams due to his cheap contract (for 2 more years) and upside he's shown. Its likely he wouldn't fetch more than a seventh rounder though but that is better than nothing! He also talked about how the job at FB is likely for 2 positions and wondered if Quinn Johnson, who played on the sixth snap in the Colts game, was being put on display. I think keeping 3 FBs again this year could be a big mistake...especially since we are talking about having 4 TEs on the roster!
More after the jump...
Capers feels this years Packers have better depth at Safety than we did going into last year.
"I think we’ve got better depth than we did last year," Capers said Tuesday following the final practice of training camp. "I was concerned about our depth last year, and it proved itself out in those first four games when Atari went out in the opener, and we ended up making a roster move after the second game and next thing you know we’ve got a linebacker playing safety."
Regardless, Rob Demovsky speculates that Safety might be another position where we look to waivers to improve this team.
Sam Shields has been practicing all week as our Nickle corner...possibly preparing for the regular season which has to be one of the true underdog stories of the season if it ends up playing out this way. His coach, Joe Whitt said this of Shields:
"One day he's going to be a very, very good player, he's not there yet. He needs to be a good player come the Philly game. He is a great kid."
We all know Ryan Pickett wasn't a huge fan of his shift to DE, but according to Lori Nickel of the Journal-Sentinal, he's made the shift and now really likes it!
"It took me awhile to accept it. I was disappointed for a little while," said Pickett. "But after that, I started playing it and started liking it."
He talked about how he enjoys the change and the different responsibilities and is happy to do what he has to do to help the team...what a good guy and a team player! The article reports his first goal is to stop the run, no change from his previous goal, just at a new spot on the line! Our line may end up being the biggest in the league, which should make things tough on RBs around the league.
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I hope they keep Quinn Johnson. He’s not super-consistent (although it’s not like he ever actually screws up), but, when he shows flashes… boy-o-boy, he lights people up! He trucked Bob Sanders on our early TD run in the Colts game.
When you’ve got a player who has a special talent like that, I say you find a way to fit him into the offense. You don’t say “well, he’s not what we’re looking for in the ZBS.” You also don’t say “well, he’s still a little raw and inconsistent.” No, you train the kid and figure out how to make it work!
…and why would you ever want to cut him to make room for guys like Hall and Kuhn, who are a dime-a-dozen? It’s an effin’ mystery to me. Especially since we spent, what, like a 5th round pick on him or something like that? …and you’re going to cut bait on him now, AFTER he’s shown plenty of flashes of being able to do exactly what you hoped he could do?? wth? I don’t get it at all.
Trade Bait
Korey Hall- It would be pointless to keep both Hall and Kuhn. They are 2 of the same players, the only difference is Kuhn shows some kind of capability of playing HB in case of an emergency and is just as good if not better on Special Teams. While Quinn Johnson is not as good as either of them on ST or catching out of the backfield, he is far and away our best blocker. When it’s 3rd and 1, we DESPERATELY need Quinn on the field!
Breno Giacomini- Definately available to trade. He has tremendous upside, but is still a bit raw. With Newhouse showing that he can be a starting OT and TJ Lang providing quality depth in case of an emergency, we just don’t need to continue the Breno project any longer.
Scott Wells- If we are going to get any type of value out of any trade, it has to be over some decent players. Wells is our gritty veteran on the OL. He’s in his prime right now and in a couple years, he will be on his downside. While he’s tough, he’s really just an average Center when compared to any other Center around the league. He definately has issues against the better DT’s and NT’s in the league. He probably won’t have as much trade value as he does this year. With Jason Spitz being capable of starting, it gives us flexibility. We could really use CB depth!!!
Ryan Pickett- I’m going to get a lot of criticism on this one, but he may give us more trade value than anyone else on this list. He’s only a situational player out of the base 3-4 and struggles to get into the back field. He’s a true NT, and that’s where his value is seen. There are plenty of teams in need of a NT, including Kansas City. Pickett is also on the wrong side of 30. How much longer will he be around? Think of what we can get out of him now.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Woah there, nelly!
Trade Pickett?? Man, I hate to give a knee-jerk reaction on this, but…
The only way I could see it would be if we were able to get a decent DT in return as well as a good pick. Otherwise, we don’t have nearly enough depth on the d-line to screw around there. Put it this way: if we DIDN’T have Pickett, I’d be in favor of trading FOR him. Like you’re saying, that’s why we’d get a nice value for him, but… The point is that he’s not only valuable, but he’s particularly valuable to us. We don’t have his replacement on the roster. Who are you going to put there? Harrell? (shudder!)
If you want to talk about trading somebody valuable, I’d look at Hawk or maybe an O-lineman.
by Curly Lambeau on Sep 2, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Pickett
Neal is proving he is worthy of being a starter! The depth, yeah, it would be hindered a bit. We would have Justin Harrell and unproven CJ Wilson in on run downs with Jarrius Wynn in on a rotation on passing downs. The point is bringing in a CB that can make more contributions to the defense than what Pickett can make. It’s basically a give and take deal.
AJ Hawk- Completeley forgot about him. No doubt, he would be a good LB to trade at this point.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Neal is playing RDE behind Jenkins.
I don’t think he’s taken any reps at LDE. And the Packers seem to want someone bigger at LDE as it is the strong side of the offense.
I’ve thought about trading Pickett, but it doesn’t make sense at the moment, IMO. In a year or two definitely. We still need to find a full time LDE and a backup NT before I would ever feel comfortable trading Pickett! Maybe if the Packers welcome Jolly back next year they could trade Pickett…
I agree
Trading Pickett would have worked if this was two years ago in our “rebuilding year” now we are pushing to go deep this year and many more to come. I just dont see how you could trade a good starting DL when we have the team we have. A starter doesnt not equal depth at CB.
depth
we need a deep and talented defensive line rotation. I wouldn’t trade Pickett.
I don’t want to be too contrarian, but you’d get a lot of value for Woodson and Collins, too. That doesn’t mean it makes a lot of sense.
Mike Neal may in fact become something. Right now, he’s just a rookie with promise. We’re already looking at potentially starting OLB in Zombo, nickel back in Shields, and strong safety in Burnett. For a team with playoff aspirations, that scares me quite a bit. I certainly don’t want to deplete our depth and add another rook to that mix of players we’re relying heavily upon. Neal will have a big enough impact in his DL rotation as it is.
guys that have trade value, to me at least, are Donald Lee, Jason Spitz, Desmond Bishop. Yet each one of them has some value to us. The question I would ask is how much value would I get in return in order to give up one of them? I’d need a pretty decent safety, outside backer, or running back.
by gern blanston on Sep 2, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t think Donald Lee would have any trade value whatsoever. First of all, he’s an average TE. You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting an average TE nowadays. Second of all, his salary is not small.
I’d say cut him in a heartbeat if he weren’t such a sweetheart of a guy. I mean, everytime I see a quote from him in the media, I’m like, “what a guy! I love that guy!” Not to get too Jerry McGuire here, but I wish we had 53 guys with his attitude.
by Curly Lambeau on Sep 2, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Depth
Trading Pickett will clearly hurt our depth on the DL. Trading Hawk would hurt our depth at ILB. Bishop is not a guy I think anyone wants to trade given his potential. Spitz is younger and stronger than Wells, so I would rather trade Wells in this case. Lee is a throw in with little value. With all that said, who can we trade that will bring in a CB to help this team while not losing much in the process? Guys like Cullen Jenkins, BJ Raji, Clay Mathews, Nick Collins, and Charles Woodson are every down starters. They are not situational players. Trading them away would surely cause more harm than good. Pickett is a very good player, but he’s a situational player. While we value he on running downs as a DE, another team may benefit more from his services as an every down NT. What are they willing to give up for Pickett’s services? I propose the idea of exploring the idea to see what we can get in return. What I would really like is finding a team that is desperate for a NT over paying for his services! If we don’t get much value in a trade, we don’t make the trade. Simple as that!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
NT
So who plays NT if Raji is injured?! Toribio? I don’t like it… Pickett is too valuable to us right now! Why do you think Thompson franchised him? Sure you could get a good return, but it would not only kill the depth at DL (remember 08), which is about the most important position group on a team! If we had Jolly then I could see considering it…
I was being facetious
I wouldn’t trade Pickett any more than I would trade Woodson or Collins.
My choices for guys that have trade value (to me) are guys that were starters, or have some potential to step in and be productive on other teams right away. I mean that’s why I’d make a trade – to fill a hole in the roster for depth purposes, or possibly even for an immediate need due to injury.
by gern blanston on Sep 3, 2010 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I C where you're coming from
It’s true they do hold more value. I was just looking at possible trades in which we can benefit more. All in all, it looks as if most people feel Pickett’s value in DL depth would benefit more than bringing in a CB. After all, we do need to stop the run if we want to win games!
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Hawk
the pervailing deterrent in relation to trading AJ is that his salary is cost prohibitive in a trade.
by gern blanston on Sep 2, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
trade?
why would any team trade anyone right now? on saturday their will be 500 players looking for a job. scan the players that are cut and if someone catches your eye——-bring him in.
most of the players that are being suggested to be trade(besides pickett) have no trade value——giocomini, hawk, lee ect… the packers are just looking for depth at a couple positions at this time, but i’m sure if/when thompson decides to bring in a player was cut from another team——- he will be an athlete that has potential in a couple years.
well maybe you trade to go after a player that is going to make someone else’s roster. I suppose maybe you wait to see what will happen at this point but the likelihood of getting an impact player as a FA right now is pretty slim…right?
I don’t think you are right in players have no trade value. They might not have top notch trade value, but they certainly have some trade value to teams.
let me know
how many trades occur from now until the begining of the season.
like i stated earlier, why give up a draft choice when their will be 500 guys available on saturday. if a team is looking for a starter now———-it’s not good. the players that will be brought in at this stage of the game will serve depth purposes not starting roles.
other gm’s across the leagues know what other teams rosters look like. they know what positions are of strength and weakness. if you are a gm and see 1 team has a bunch of good dl and you know that your team is lacking depth, just sit and wait for that team to cut or place that player on the practice squad before nabbing him————-don’t have to waste a late round draft choice than.
Isn’t this the exact time of the year Thompson traded for Grant? After the final preseason game and before the regular season starts? If there is a Particular player you want, as was the case for Thompson wanting Grant, then make the deal. If you just want a body, then wait. The trade for Grant seems to have worked out just fine… Thompson got the man he wanted for the paltry price of a 6th rd pick. It makes some sense if you have a specific player in mind.
thompson
got grant for 1, because the giants had earth wind and fire, plus the fact the jackson wasn’t very good.
imo——-best move thompson ever did. he got a solid starting rb that fits the system well and didn’t give up much.
no guarantees
that you’ll get that guy that you’re waiting for. I believe that everyone that’s cut goes through the waiver wire, too. Is that correct? If so, the teams with the worst records from a year ago are awarded priority. So, if your team was good last year, there may be little hope of getting the guy you are looking for.
Not everybody that’s released in the next few days is “just a guy”. Some are aging veterans with a high salary. Some are simply the victims of a numbers crunch where a team happens to be loaded at that position. Perhaps some guys didn’t fit into the current scheme because of coaching changes (like Pat Lee). Bottom line is you’ll make a trade if you think it will make your roster better.
by gern blanston on Sep 3, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
It is rare, but still possible
Teams may really like what they see in a player and want to get the contract he is on, as opposed to bargaining again with agents. It’s rare, but if there’s hype for a player that the team doesn’t want, a trade is more likely to happen. This is the case for Ryan Grant I believe. Is this something to count on with trading someone like Breno? No, but it is definately worth exploring. I’d rather trade him for a 6th or 7th Round pick then release him and get nothing in return.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
or competing with another team
to drive up the guy’s salary requirements.
by gern blanston on Sep 3, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
here's my problem with trade value
if you trade giocomini,(imo) you’d have to get a 5th round pick or better for me to consider it value. he was a fifth round pick so if you trade him for a 6th or 7th, well that is like a negative return. you wasted a 5th to get a 6th———-to me, that isn’t value.
That's true
but if Giacomini isn’t going to be a part of the 53 man roster because we want Newhouse as our 4th OT instead, it’s either we cut him and get nothing or trade him and get something. It really depends upon how many OT’s the team wants to hold onto. Maybe the team decides to hold onto him a little longer in hopes of getting more compensation.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Got one for you already...
Patrick Crayton was just traded from Dallas to San Diego. I wouldn’t be surprised if he became an instant starter or at least #3 WR on the roster. Compensation was low but the Chargers knew he wouldn’t slide to them if Crayton hit the wire.
like i said
the players being brought in are for depth purposes——-not exactly starters.
Actually that isn't what you said...
Let me remind you:
let me know
how many trades occur from now until the begining of the season.
like i stated earlier, why give up a draft choice when their will be 500 guys available on saturday. if a team is looking for a starter now———-it’s not good. the players that will be brought in at this stage of the game will serve depth purposes not starting roles.
Your point was that teams won’t trade and don’t trade because there will be 500 guys available on the waivers soon. Yet there were probably close to a dozen trades from the time you sent the message. Do you want me to put them all on here or is it point taken?
Capers likes our depth at safety?
Coach-speak for………….we don’t have anybody that can PLAY, but we have a lot of ‘em. Looks like we’re gonna have to depend on a lot of young guys this yr. Trade Hawk, keep Pickett.
Garbage, probably...
It wasn’t well thought out.
I think we could try and get Asante Samuel for Hawk. But Asante’s tackling issues are a problem that would require safety help over the top.
Oh no, don't tell me Matt Barkley ALSO doesn't tie his shoes...
September 1st, 2010. A day that shall live in infamy.
"Because one of the great minds of the 21st century is raising glow-in-the-dark fish and weaving serapes..." -Leonard Hofstadter from The Big Bang Theory
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 3, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
We usually have safety help over the top anyway though, don’t we? Samuel would present an interesting option as he’s very adept at zone coverage.
I suppose all those bad tackles by Bush and Williams HAVE made our safeties play at a higher level...
Oh no, don't tell me Matt Barkley ALSO doesn't tie his shoes...
September 1st, 2010. A day that shall live in infamy.
"Because one of the great minds of the 21st century is raising glow-in-the-dark fish and weaving serapes..." -Leonard Hofstadter from The Big Bang Theory
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 3, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Packers need depth at multiple position: rb, kr/pr, dl, olb, cb, s
I think if the eagles decide to cut/trade Macho Harris, the packers should be knocking at his door. Macho Harris is capable of playing cornerback or safety, both are position where we lack depth. He actually fell out of discussion when he went down with a hamstring injury early in camp. We would definitely be able to use him, after he picks up the playbook, at a backup safety/cornerback spot. I know the eagles and packers might not want to trade players when they will be playing each other in about a week. But if I was Ted Thompson I would possible spitz for macho harris….other players I would be looking at when Saturday comes is chad simpson rb/kr-bills, Travis laboy olb-sf, Marques Douglas de- miami, Brandon McDonald cb-cle, Alex hall olb-nyg, and Fred Bennett cb-sd. Another team that I would give a call about a cb is the bengals. The begals have great depth at cb. I would see if they were willing to part ways with morgan Trent or David jones. They are 4th and 5th on the depth chart respectively. David jones their primary nickel back in 08 might be easier to pull away because Morgan trent had 3 ints in one preseason game a couple of weeks ago.
by PACK3RS on Sep 3, 2010 2:14 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Another team that I would call about a player is the nyg. Clint sintim looks like he has fell out the starting lineup because they signed bullock and move him from middle linebacker to starting strong side backer. Clint sintim was the giants second round pick a year ago and they might not want to let him go. But when I was watching sintim this preseason, he just looked out of place in a 4-3 defense. He played his college ball at Virginia in coach al groh’s 3-4 defense. Many draft experts believed he would fit better in a 3-4 defense and I totally agreed. I would definitely see if he was available for trade and what was the giants asking price. I would definitely rather have sintim instead of poppinga or even zombo. Zombo has had a solid preseason, but i believe he might need a year of seasoning before he is ready to contribute in the regular season.
by PACK3RS on Sep 3, 2010 2:28 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Sintim
would be a terrific pickup. But I can’t think the NYG are going to give up on him soo quickly. I could see making that deal if the NYG would be interested. I don’t think he’ll be a terrific OLB but he would be better than Jones, IMO.
I totally agree with you. They probably aren’t going to give up on sintim so quickly. But, it’s definitely worth a call for Ted Thompson and the packers nation. If I was TT, I would try to make a deal. I would let them know spitz or bishop is available for trade for sintim. People might be against trading bishop but you have to understand soon as they put a new collective bargaining agreement in place, which will most likely happen before the season is over, bishop will be gone. This is bishop last year in his contract and he has demonstrated frustration with little or no playing time. This would be a perfect time to get something for him. The nyg don’t have much depth behind goff, their starting MLB. And if you ask me, I believe bishop is a better player than goff and has more upside.
by PACK3RS on Sep 3, 2010 3:34 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Macho Harris trade might be out the window now
A trade for macho Harris might be out the window because the cardinals just traded reggie wells (g) to the eagles for a future 6th round pick according to rotoworld. If I was the packs, I would still keep an eye on macho if he gets released.
by PACK3RS on Sep 3, 2010 2:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Chad Simpson
Is he in danger of losing his spot? He was once a top notch KR for the Bills…I’d be very interested in seeing what he could do. I am not at all confident in our KR/PR options right now.
From what I been reading, he is in danger of getting cut. He is the 5th running back on the depth chart and the bills have multiple opinions at kr/pr (spiller, Parrish, mckelvin, etc). He has been outplayed by Joique bell for the 4th running back spot. Bell has averaged 6.5 per carry this preseason. The only way Simpson sticks on the bills roster is the bills trades marshawn lynch. Even if lynch gets traded, there no guarantee Simpson makes it.
by PACK3RS on Sep 3, 2010 4:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Don't know Simpson
Does he have good size/speed? Whats his return background? Just kick returns or punts too? Is he even a decent RB? help me out here…
5’9" 215 lb. Solid 3rd string running back/kick returner. Here is some stats….
-2010 preseason (bills): 26 carries 109 yards 4.1 average 1 td
-2009 season (colts): 15 carries 102 yards 6.8 average 2 td. RETURN: 38 att 898 yards 23.6 average 1 td
by PACK3RS on Sep 3, 2010 5:30 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Michael Robinson?
Great candidate to come in and give our ST a spark! He is very versatile but as a former pro bowl ST player. Only 27…plenty of good years left for him. Anyone else see this as an interesting person to look at? I guess the problem is who’s roster spot does he take? Havner? a FB?
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=pfw-20100903_robinson_one_of_three_49ers_let_go
Always like Robinson
Would provide a good return man and ST player. I could see cutting one of the FB for him! Would take over the ST role of the FB and provide a good return man if Blackmon isn’t ready for the start of the season. Would essentially give us 3 RB and 2 FB.
OLB-Cody Brown released
Last years second round pick, olb Cody brown just got released from the cardinals. He probably had some issue transitioning to a 3-4 defense. But, the cards gave up on his pretty fast. He is definitely worth a hard look from the packers.
by PACK3RS on Sep 3, 2010 4:52 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Bring him in for a look
But he had an ACL injury last year. He may not have recovered from it yet… DOn’t know that I would cut somone to get him but give him a physical and see how his knee is. Beyond that he and sintim are about the same. Sintim a little bigger, Brown a little quicker and faster.
Neither is particularly quick or fast around the OT. Brown seems a copy of Jones… Good depth guys and should be better than Poppinga if they play ST well…
Hello Packer Nation
Steeler fan here, one that married a die-hard Packer fan originally from Sun Prairie, WI. The Steelers currently have a surplus of OLBs. One guy in particular that might fit your scheme is Patrick Bailey. He can play OLB, ILB, and he’s great on ST. I’d love to see us offer you guys Bailey straight up for Quinn Johnson.
I'm your huckleberry
What about Korey Hall?
He’s a bit more flexible for scheme, can actually catch, and plays very good special teams. If that’s not good enough we can throw in Jarett Bush and a bag of chips?
by PackApologist on Sep 3, 2010 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The rest of the league is busy with trades, waivers, signings....
… and Steady Ted’s all tucked into his bed, I bet.
How can this guy have possibly learned at the feet of Ron Wolf?
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 3, 2010 9:24 PM CDT reply actions
The same Ron Wolf who set up a star QB to torpedo *6* straight playoff seasons?
1998 LOSS to SF
No playoffs in 99 or 2000
2001 LOSS to STL, entirely Farve’s fault – Wolf retired before the season.
2002 LOSS to ATL in wild card
2003 LOSS to Philadelpha, 4th and 26 game
2004 LOSS to Minnesota, Farve-exacerbated
2005 No playoffs
2006 No playoffs
2007 LOSS. We know what happened.
Look, this might come across as a rant, but look at this mess. At least we did better than Minnesota during this span…I guess.
Oh no, don't tell me Matt Barkley ALSO doesn't tie his shoes...
September 1st, 2010. A day that shall live in infamy.
"Because one of the great minds of the 21st century is raising glow-in-the-dark fish and weaving serapes..." -Leonard Hofstadter from The Big Bang Theory
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 3, 2010 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Holy shift of subject Batman.
My point was that Wolf was constantly tinkering with the bottom of his roster and he made cut down deals to improve his team. Thompson’s got needs at DL, CB (and probably OLB too) and a surplus of talent at FB, TE and OL. Players are being marketed at both CB and DL and Thomspon does nothing (at least so far). He’ll probably end up keeping 7 FB/TE’s and we’ll find ourselves watching Jarret Fucking Bush in the defensive backfield again.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Free Agents
Are free agents for a reason. Not always, but usually. This is especially the case with guys who don’t make the roster. Not to mention that they have to learn a new system as well. You also don’t know how well they’ll fit in the locker room or affect team chemistry.
Didn’t Thompson pick up Woodson and Pickett? And equally important, I don’t think he’s responsible for Joe Johnson.
Unfortunately, I don’t think any of our ‘surplus talent’ at FB, TE or OL have any trade value. Maybe Quarless, but I don’t think he’d get as much in trade as he could be worth in a two TE, two receiver single back formation.
by I voted for Kodos on Sep 4, 2010 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Jesus am I tired of people saying "Woodson and Pickett" every time someone says anything negative about Thompson.
We’ve got Woodson, Williams and a bunch of guys who aren’t worth a crap at CB. It’s a virtual impossibility that there isn’t someone better available at CB right now. According to various reports, there are 2CB’s available in trade right now that are likely better than Williams and certainly better than Shields, Bush or Lee. I like Shields, But he’s too green to be a nickel back on a Superbowl team.
Yeah, Joe Johnson wasn’t Thompson’s. And Harrell wasn’t Wolf’s. Who gives a damn? Neither point is relevant because I didn’t say Thompson was a bad GM, I said he’s too conservative and too willing to watch his draftees struggle to the point that that take down a team that otherwise might be a title contender. He did it last year (at least to start the year) with the OL, and he’s doing it now with our defensive backfield.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions
You didn't say Thompson was a bad GM
But you implied it.
I’d rather have a mediocre talent who is familiar with our scheme and our locker room than a mediocre talent who isn’t.
by I voted for Kodos on Sep 4, 2010 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Good Point
Honestly, I haven’t seen too many free agents worth bringing in the past couple years. People were all over TT for not making an effort for CB Lito Sheppard, but Sheppard is stinking it up in MN and for a 4th CB there, he’s overpaid! OLB Joey Porter was worth considering, but he can stop the run, would be overpaid as a situational player, and is on the wrong side of 30.
When TT did have safe free agents to target, he went after them. Yes, I agree with Ted Simmons, he is conservative, but is that a bad thing? Conservative means we are being safe. We are not making decisions that could set us back. I’m fine with that. I like the safe approach when there has not been a lot to choose from. If there were more Free Agents to choose from, then I may say otherwise.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Conservative is a bad thing if...
… it means you’re once again relying on Jarret Bush to fill a role he’s demonstrated he can’t fill in nearly 30 games.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL
Keeping Jarrett Bush is neither conservative or aggressive. It’s STUPID!!!!
Sam Shields will be taking over Bush, and getting Shields as an undrafted free agent rookie was a conservative approach, and we may have a high reward in that decision.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
Not sure how that's conservative...
… but I have more faith in Shields than Bush, and he certainly has more upside. He’s going to make a lot of mistakes in the nickel, but hopefully he’ll make enough plays to make it worth keeping him there. Lee hasn’t shown anything. Neither had Bush, of course. Underwood’s not healthy and Blackmon, who could move back from safety, isn’t either.
I don’t know. I just look at those guys (plus Williams) and I don’t see any way the defense is going to play any better against great offenses than they did last year. There are guys available on the trade market (if the rumors are true) that I think are better than the alternatives on the roster.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Picking up guys like Shields and Zombo are conservative because of their low salary demands and we didn’t have to give up anything to get them. Really, it doesn’t hurt giving them the opportunity!
Well, again, the coaches and ourselves were just hoping the guys we have would develop and take another step in progression. There wasn’t anybody else to choose from with no Free Agents to target, so what option did we have? If the draft board doesn’t work in our favor to get one, then don’t do it.
As far as trades go, who is on the market to trade for, and what are those team’s demands?
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
You know I can't answer those questions.
But using that system of analysis, anything the team does must be the right thing because we don’t know what the alternatives are. And it does hurt to give guys an opportunity if they aren’t ready for that opportunity and giving it to them anyway keeps the team from taking advantage of the opportunity it has this year. Woodson, Clifton, Tauscher, Driver aren’t going to be around forever. This team is young in general, but its window of opportunity is closing faster than most people realize.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
So really your completely speculating that there are better CB available in trade?!!! Even though the NFL is a pass happy league, you think teams are going to be interested in trading a good CB, when already the supply of those is extremely short!!!
Next time bring us real name or don’t bring us anything!
Uh, no.
I wasn’t indicating I couldn’t answer your question, I was saying I don’t know what their demands are, or what other options might have been available (that never made the press) earlier in the offseason.
If you’re reading the same sites I am, and I imagine you are, then you’ve already come across the same names I have. I don’t have access to information that isn’t available to the general public.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I know you can't answer the questions
Nobody but the Front Office can. It’s not wise to let the public know if you’re looking to trade someone, it might bring out mixed emotions from the locker room. The point is, you don’t know if they have looked into trades or not. I don’t know if they explored the possibilities. So in all reality, can either one of us really point fingers on this subject? No.
I’m really not a big fan of trades anyways. You trade for a player, which is a risk, and you are making a sacrifice in the process. Unless it’s a low risk trade for some average or possibly emerging player, I don’t want to do it. Like, I supported the trade for Ryan Grant for a 6th Round. Trading Tony Moll (who sucked) to Baltimore for S Derrick Martin (ok backup). Those are a little safer. It’s a little different with marquee players though. I’ll bet ya Chicago regrets their big trade for Jay Cutler….Those are the kind of decisions that can set a franchise back.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
The player for player trades are pretty safe cuz everyone knows what they’re getting. The draft pick trades you never know what you might be losing. What if Wolf traded a 7th rd pick and we never got a Driver or a Tuascher. Those are the ones that Thompson is more unlikely to make. THe Grant one being the one that sticks out… So I have to think he knew what he was getting there… Packers apparently had kept their eye on him for a year or more!
I get what you're saying
but when it comes to more marquee players, more risk is involved. The same applies to high draft picks. Trading late round picks for players are safer, much safer. It’s like this: if a team offered Green Bay 3 1st Round picks for Aaron Rodgers straight up, would you accept it? We could get 3 starters, including a new franchise QB, but the QB is the most important position on the team. This would be a very risky trade for both teams.
"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi
No
I wouldn’t take 3 firsts for Rodgers! And even w/ late rd picks you just don’t know… Like I said, look at what Driver and Tauscher did as 7th rd picks! They both, although Taucher didn’t get elected, were Pro Bowl quality players for the Packers for a decade! SO the risk is still high, IMO.
i disagree their is obviously an asymmetry of information
each team has a much better idea of what they are giving up than what they are getting.
I didn't imply anything.
You tried to shift my argument so you could have the conversation you wanted to have.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
"I'd rather have a mediocre talent who is familiar with our scheme and our locker room than a mediocre talent who isn't."
There’s a lot of assumptions in the false choice you’re offering. If Ron Wolf thought there was constantly someone available who was probably better than the bottom one or two guys on his roster, it’s because he was right. I’ll take his judgment over yours, thanks.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Assumptions and Shifts
I’m assuming that a player who went through camp with our coaches is more familiar with our system and his teammates than someone who didn’t. I guess you’re saying that I’m assuming the released players are approximately equal in talent level. Except for Bush, yes, I am.
Not really sure how I’m shifting your argument to ‘have the conversation [I] wanted to have.’ What conversation would you like to have?
Finally, Ron Wolf is gone. You’re going to have to get over that. Also, he wasn’t exactly perfect, either. That said, I’d trust his opinion over mine or yours any day.
by I voted for Kodos on Sep 4, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
You're missing the point.
Either deliberately or not. Either way, I’m not going to try to explain it to you again.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I think your point
is that we should be constantly seeking to improve the team at all levels. It appears that Thompson prefers continuity over change and that you prefer a more proactive approach. I’m saying is that there is merit to both styles – I was terrified last season when we didn’t do anything for the O-line, but overall I think Thompson’s approach is a good one.
Having said that, I think you’re probably right about needing to pick up someone, anyone at corner. However, we don’t have much we can trade so we might just have to wait and see if anyone decent gets cut. Otherwise we’re stuck with what we have. I’m sure they would have drafted someone if they knew that Lee and Underwood weren’t going to get any better.
by I voted for Kodos on Sep 4, 2010 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
games
Haven’t been even played yet, so its kinda hard to say that Lee, Underwood and Shields or Burnett for that matter haven’t improved! Can you say that off preseason games? Maybe, but its also possible the coaches put them into position to make mistakes to increase their learning curve in the preseason!
If you say they’ve underwhelmed during the PREseason thats fair. At the same time, humans learn from mistakes not successes! Its human nature… So letting them fail is an important step in learning to succeed!!!
I should have said
“if they thought Lee or Underwood” wouldn’t get any better. Ostensibly they didn’t pick up any CBs in the draft because Thompson was assuming improvement from the players we already had.
By the time camp and preseaon are over it’s usually too late to make any big changes without giving up something. In our case it would probably have to be draft picks.
You’re right, though, you can usually learn more from mistakes than from successes. Except in typing.
by I voted for Kodos on Sep 4, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh,
Well, then, I guess you didn’t miss the point. My bad.
BCB free since 8/24/10 and happier for it.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Sep 4, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
It's cool
The important thing is that we’re both Packer fans. Anyway, it gives me something to do at work.
by I voted for Kodos on Sep 4, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
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