Penalties: How Important Are They To Avoid?

by Brandon on Sep 30, 2010 7:00 AM CDT in Green Bay Packers Analysis

Penalties are part of the hidden yards in football. When I look back at how they could have lost on Monday night when the Green Bay Packers had over 100 yards more in total offense (379 to 276) than the Bears, and had the ball for ten minutes longer (35:49 to 24:11), the answer can be the hidden yards lost due to penalties and special teams (touchdown WR Devin Hester!).

The special teams performance was awful, and I don't know if they truly intended to punt the ball away to Hester because P Tim Masthay is more of a big leg punter than a directional kicker. Actually, does he have any idea where the ball is going? But that will be worked on in practice, and while it won't ever be perfect, it usually isn't as bad as it was last Monday either.

As far as the penalties go, Mike McCarthy was upset, but not that upset. He said there some penalties that "you just have to live with." He referenced LB Frank Zombo's personal foul specifically, but he didn't seem all that upset at his offensive line either. Greg Bedard spoke with CB Charles Woodson after the game, who was upset that a penalty was even called on rookie SS Morgan Burnett as both players went for the ball. Woodson is certainly one player who has never shied away from an aggressive play (and had one pass interference penalty early in the game), but probably wouldn't have as many game-changing plays of his own if he was always worried about penalties. Obviously they never help, and the hidden yards can add up against you, but I can't recall a game where it was decided by a bad penalty. In the loss last Monday, I'd focus on the two big punt returns, and the long pass plays to WR Johnny Knox, first.

Do you want to see the Packers dial down their aggressiveness to some extent to avoid some penalties?

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Penalties

I’m fine with most of them from Monday Night. Zombo’s was an aggressive play, Cutler still would have thrown the interception had he been hit in the chest rather than face to face. Burnett’s penalty was a cat fight for the ball which still would have been intercepted by Collins. The holdings are a judgement call on the refs if they want to call it at that point or not. I mean guys are held all game long it’s just a matter of what degree. After probably two false starts it gets annoying. Clifton is always good for one and that’s acceptable. Remember as much as the penalties sucked, the big plays before or after it still had a hand in the game. The fumble, the challenge of the fumble, long passes to Knox, the play of Peppers, and the blocked field goal all helped decide the game.

"It's 4th and inches and the Giants are going for it. You gotta love sports!"

by BSells12 on Sep 30, 2010 7:41 AM CDT reply actions

Good teams have aggressive defenses that do not take penalties

So that’s what I would like. Steelers and Ravens come to mind.

by Danwood on Sep 30, 2010 8:00 AM CDT reply actions

Actually I think the Ravens get penalized alot. Remember the penalty-ridden game at Lambeau last year?

by AaronR on Sep 30, 2010 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions

The Ravens set a record for most penalties that game.

I understand the Packers didn’t field a team; the Ravens played the Zebras instead, and the Zebras won rather handily.

Maybe Koa Misi and Jared Odrick would be Patriots if Bill Parcells wasn't Comedic.Sans's father...
"I looked at BN once. I got banned." -the immortal words of JShufelt
No longer using Yahoo! Sports for anything besides stat checking since 9/29/2010...

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 30, 2010 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions

Actually I think it was our two teams COMBINED that set the record…we kept up jab for jab in the penalty department in that game.

by TrevorR on Sep 30, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions

Killer sack vs. Holding

If you completely miss your block and your QB is going to get clobbered…especialy on the blind side, I’d rather hold and go 1st and 20 than get a killer sack, have 2nd and 20ish and maybe a hurt QB.

by GregR on Sep 30, 2010 8:48 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs

There are penalties that are acceptable

and some that arent.
The Zombo hit is an acceptable penalty because it wasn’t his intention and was just bad luck where his hat was at when he came off his block. The Burnett penalty at the end (while I still disagree with the call) is acceptable, he got put in a bad position by the horrid throw to the point that he was going to impede the WR if he tried to get to the ball

Those are penalties that are acceptable and I can live with

Others that are unacceptable in my mind. A majority of personal fouls and late hits. There are exceptions to the personal fouls like Zombo’s hit, but everyone should know the rules and what you can and cant do at this point. Late hits are never excusable to me you should be aware where the sideline is and listen for the whistle and not cost 15 yards (glaring at you Nick atm) To the guy that said false starts are acceptable, I completely disagree. We set the snap so every member on that team should know it and there is no reason to make a team go 5 yards further because you can’t remember when the ball is snapped. Pretty much anything on ST is unacceptable (especially offsides… seriously?!?). Finally there’s holding which is in a grey area for me. It happens every play, and everyone knows it. I’d say some is acceptable but obviously you cant be blatant about it to the point it gets called

To summerazie this long post, penalties that are a result of hard work and playing the game the way it should be are completely acceptable, it’s the stupid penalties that are a result of not thinking that we need to eliminate.

by Goldenarmadillo4 on Sep 30, 2010 9:10 AM CDT reply actions

False starts

You have to expect one or two a game from Clifton. False starts aren’t necessarily because of the snap count. Watch tackles in the NFL how sometimes they cheat just a little to get off the ball against guys like Peppers, Mathis, Freeney, and other quick defensive ends.

"It's 4th and inches and the Giants are going for it. You gotta love sports!"

by BSells12 on Sep 30, 2010 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions

A history of committing them

doesnt make it OK… in fact it makes it worse. He knows the snap count, he knows that Aaron is going to do hard counts and what not. This is a major problem that is NOT acceptable, especially since he does do it a lot. It’s something he needs to work on and should’ve worked on a long time ago.

by Goldenarmadillo4 on Sep 30, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions

False Starts and Holding

We are still having issues with it with Clifton and Tauscher. When is it time to move onto Bulaga? Neither player is the same anymore.

Special Teams penalties is simply inexcusable and lack of discipline. Enough said. I just hope we can move forward from this and actually LEARN!

"No player is greater than a team."
-Vince Lombardi

by Jabooty on Sep 30, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions

Most definitely. The thing is, we only had a couple “aggressive” penalties, the rest were just bad mistakes. The Zombo penalty and Burnett penalty are what they are. Zombo was just going to hit Cutler, and happened to go helmet to helmet with him. Not a whole lot you can do about that. Burnett was in a tough spot because Cutler under threw the ball by so much. He got tangled up with Bennett, and got a penalty called on him. Those two are acceptable I guess, even though both gave the Bears like 30+ free yards, which obviously isn’t ever ideal. Let alone, when it happens on a potential game winning drive.

The false starts, holdings, and special team penalties are just not acceptable and have been our Achilles heel on offense and special teams for a while now. It’s kind of silly actually. Think about the drives in the Bears game that ultimately ended up being stopped because of a holding call. And really, I can think of this happening last season multiple times as well. It’s just inexcusable. Clifton and Tauscher can’t hold as much as they have been. At some point, they have to trust Rodgers to feel the pressure and avoid it.

by packallday555 on Sep 30, 2010 9:54 AM CDT reply actions

Or

they need to stop putting themselves in position to get beat where a blatant hold is necessary to prevent a sack

by Goldenarmadillo4 on Sep 30, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions

Right. I read or heard somewhere that Tauscher’s technique was nothing short of horrible last game.

by packallday555 on Sep 30, 2010 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions

Reposting this again so you can see how each penalty impacted the game...

Here’s the litany:

1) 10:03 left, first quarter – pass interference on Woodson. Thankfully, no points scored on that drive, but only because of Robbie Gould’s missed field goal.

2) 5:41 left, first quarter – false start on Clifton. Green Bay overcame that flag, as Rodgers found Jennings for a touchdown.

3) 4:26 left, first quarter – offsides on Bishop…on a kickoff. A KICKOFF? I haven’t seen that call in years. You see that in pee wee football, not the NFL.

4) 4:01 left, first quarter – face mask on Matthews. The Packers thankfully didn’t pay for it, as an interception by Martin made up for it.

5) 6:02 left, second quarter – holding on Colledge. That wiped out an eight yard run.

6) 3:55 left, second quarter – illegal block on Martin. A 22 yard return wiped out.

7) 14:55 left, third quarter – illegal formation on Clifton. A five-yard pass to Lee negated.

8) 9:18 left, third quarter – holding on Sitton. Another five yard gain, a run by Rodgers, negated.

9) 7:25 left, third quarter – holding on Tauscher. Not just 15 yards lost on a pass to Finley, but a touchdown.

10) 1:50 left, third quarter – false start on Tauscher. Almost no yardage lost.

11) 1:50 left, third quarter – false start on Tauscher. Ditto.

12) :24 left, third quarter – delay of game on Rodgers. It turned a third and 1 into a third and 6, which went incomplete.

13) 13:56 left, fourth quarter – false start on Clifton. Made up for with a 14 yard gain on second and 12.

14) 6:45 left, fourth quarter – roughing the passer on Zombo. That canceled an interception by Barnett, and the drive turned into a tying field goal for Chicago.

15) 6:34 left, fourth quarter – unnecessary roughness on Collins, helping to lead to the field goal.

16) 2:33 left, fourth quarter – intentional grounding on Rodgers, on a drive which led to the game-turning turnover.

17) 1:51 left, fourth quarter – pass interference on Burnett, negating an interception by Collins that would have saved the game.

18) :04 left, fourth quarter – illegal forward pass on Driver, negating a chance at a Cal-Stanford miracle lateral play.

Total yards in penalties: 152.
Total offensive yards lost beyond the penalties themselves: 55.
Points loss by Green Bay or gained by Chicago because of penalties: 13.

by Bush League All Star on Sep 30, 2010 12:01 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs

Points loss by Green Bay or gained by Chicago because of penalties: 13.

Well doesn’t that just say it all. Rec.

"But we all know that games aren't played on paper...they are played by little men inside our TV sets." --Kenny Mayne

by dishingoutdimes on Sep 30, 2010 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions

To be honest

I’ve spent far less time thinking about the penalties from Monday’s game than I have about how idiotic (and lucky for the Bears) it was for James Jones to not adjust the ball to his outer arm on that last offensive play. If he adjusts like I know he’s been taught for years, and Urlacher hits that ball it shoots right out of bounds because he was running right along the sideline.

by 400metres on Sep 30, 2010 8:12 PM CDT reply actions

I said in another post that 9 times out of 10 that ball goes out of bounds. It’s like a minor miracle that it stayed in. That told me right then and there we weren’t going to win that game.

by gern blanston on Sep 30, 2010 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions

That told me right then and there we weren’t going to win that game.

Yep. Me too.

That’s why I don’t get all the “let the Bears score” hyper-analysis. So much went wrong for the Pack in Monday’s game that it was just not meant to be and should be let go. Time to move on to the Lions.

by 400metres on Sep 30, 2010 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Though that's not to say

I didn’t enjoy seeing the abysmal Giants favored against the Bears this week.

Ya can’t fool the odds-makers.

by 400metres on Sep 30, 2010 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions

It's kinda like

that missed wide-open pass to Greg Jennings on the first offensive play of overtime during the AZ playoff loss. I thought mostly about that after that game, not all the stupid shit that happened which led up to that point.

Penalties matter, but great teams that have won championships all did so by rising above all the crap and still pulling out a win when they get that one last chance to do so. (e.g., the Saints in last years NFC Championship, the Steelers in the 2008 SB, or the Giants in pretty much the entirety of their playoff run in 2007.)

The Packers are 2-2 in their last 4 games and each of those 2 losses came as a direct result of a failure to seize the moment when it was right there. I really hope they turn the corner and start seizing those moments, otherwise they’re just going to be another perennial 10-12 game winner that no one expects to ever actually win anything that matters.

by 400metres on Sep 30, 2010 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions

o-line penalties

The holds, false starts and illegal formations and such are not a result of aggressiveness, but because the linemen are getting beat. I don’t know how much can be done about that at this point in the season.

And pro-wrestling moves after the whistle blows aren’t “aggressive.” They’re just stupid.

by uglyfatpimplynerd on Sep 30, 2010 8:20 PM CDT reply actions

Can someone explain to me how the above picture is DPI?

OK, first of all, what is done is done, and there’s no taking back the call on this play. I’m just trying to understand if this was a good call or not.

What I see in this picture is pretty much what I saw Monday night: Cutler throws to Earl Bennett, who is being covered by Morgan Burnett. M.Burnett is clearly turned to play the ball, and E.Burnett is all over him like a bad suit, presumably in an attempt to stop an interception.

Isn’t that offensive pass interference? Maybe M.Burnett committed some DPI/illegal contact that I didn’t see, but at most, that should be offsetting penalties. Right, or am I missing something here? I just watched through the highlights of the game on NFL.com, and the announcer said M.Burnett didn’t “look back to play the ball”. But you can see from the above pic, he clearly did…

by DaveInTucson on Sep 30, 2010 9:25 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Whether or not it was pass interference (offensive or defensive)

The announcers will almost always agree with what the NFL wants. If you become in any way controversial or vocally complain about the NFL you will end up announcing the Browns-Rams game the next week (if you’re lucky enough to keep your job).

Sometimes I think the only qualification for being a major network NFL commentator is the ability to talk for 3+ hours without offending any major demographic or the NFL. Even Cris Collinsworth seems to be falling in line, and in my opinion, spiraling downward as he becomes the voice of the NFL.

by I voted for Kodos on Oct 1, 2010 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions