Packers Pass Rush Vs Chargers
by arodgb on Nov 8, 2011 4:20 PM CST
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PrintSo, what's the problem with the Packers pass rush? I've heard quite a few reasons: Dom Capers not playing the right schemes, Erik Walden not generating enough pass rush, Clay Matthews not being the player he once was. Plenty of crazy ideas for Packer fans. But today, looking at Pro Football Focus, a big stat caught my eye: Erik Walden was graded higher than any other Packers player (Save Rodgers, of course).
That's right, one sack, four pressures, and two hits on the day for Walden. While that might not be as outstanding as it looks, he also had an impeccable day in coverage, and really gave the coaches no reason to put Frank Zombo in.
But the real question here is, if Walden wasn't responsible for the lack of pass rush on Sunday, who was? Well, it wasn't Matthews. A good day of rushing the passer for Matthews, with four pressures and a quarterback hit (despite the lack of a sack). Capers? Perhaps. Understand this, though, there is not ONE person on this blog who knows anything near what Capers knows. The coverage at the end of the game might have been a little loose, standard prevent defense. But no, I wouldn't put the blame on Capers. He knows what he's doing, and was the reason the Packers won the Super Bowl last year. Think he doesn't know as much now? The last thing ANY Packer fan should be doing is calling Capers schemes into question. He knows what he's doing.
So if it wasn't Walden, if it wasn't Matthews, and if it probably wasn't Capers, who was it? Well, there's a couple of players. BJ Raji, first of all. Just one pressure the whole game. No doubt his play has regressed from last season, and understandably so. Last year, playing 90% of defensive snaps [not to mention a grueling postseason], probably took its toll on Raji. Combine that with the effects of the lockout, and you have a problem. Asking him to repeat that, especially after losing Jenkins, was probably just too much for Raji. If the Packers get Mike Neal back, look for Raji's play to improve. If not, well, I'd say Raji stays at his mediocre level of play for the season.
Second, AJ Hawk. Now Hawk has looked terrible all season, but in this game he looked terrible in coverage, run support, and the few times he rushed the passer, he was shut down. Hawk's subpar play has hurt the Packers in every aspect of the defense, not just pass rush.
And third, the defensive line. Now, the real blame here goes on Jarius Wynn and CJ Wilson. I know Green isn't used to rush the passer, but the few plays he did, he got nothing. No suprise there, though, I'm not complaining about Green. What I'm complaining about is the horrid play of CJ and Wynn. According to Pro Football Focus, CJ and Wynn were asked to rush the passer on 40 plays [In contrast, they were asked to play the run on 9 snaps]. How many plays did they reach the quarterback? Nada. Zero [0]. No pressure, no hits, no sacks, no tackles. After re-watching the game myself, Wilson and Wynn looked lost. Then again, they were late round picks, but that's unacceptable.
What do you think is wrong with the pass rush? Think I'm a moron? Like my ideas? Let me know.... in the comments!
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I don’t have any suggestions on how to make the pass rush better [that might be for a more qualified person to write, like PackApologist or Vermont Cubs Fan], but I was sick of hearing all the crap about DUMB CAPPERS and ERIK WALDEN SUCKS [believe me, I hate Walden very much, but he was NOT the problem in this game]
Jay Cutler, first NFL quarterback to beat a playoff team with a losing record.
Over the last few weeks
I also noticed how some teams have been passing more on us against our base 3-4, which can help explain our minimized pass rush and Raji’s mediocre performance. Raji needs to be at the NT position. If anything, he’ll get his motor going again penetrating up the middle again. I know we play a lot out of our 2-4 scheme, but we need to get Raji penetrating again even out of the base 3-4. If anything, it will get him into a groove. You are right on with the fact that Raji’s pass rush has been non-existent. Yes, a lot of that has to do with the absence of Cullen Jenkins, but you also have to be hot too. Raji was never allowed to get into that groove this season switching from DE to DT all year. This is really only one part of the problem though.
Our Safeties are the other issue. We can’t get off the field on 3rd downs and our Safeties are frequently getting beat. It’s hard to blame that on Capers though considering he doesn’t have Collins back there. Peprah is out of place far too often. Although he had 2 great interceptions against SD, he was also beat several times considerably.
All we can really do at this point is hope our Safeties get their act together, Williams gets healthy, Zombo and Walden rotate, Neal gets healthy, and Raji gets into his 2010 form. My fingers are crossed that Mike Neal turns into James Starks 2.0 for the defensive line.
My wife is gorgeous, but when she wears her pink Rodgers Jersey, she makes you fall to your knees...
CM III
Anyone else notice the QB freak out and throw the ball away every time Clay is about to annihilate him?
Not that that is the wrong play… but it is frustrating seeing the QB always pick up on him running free. I think the biggest reason for Clay’s lower sack numbers this year is (besides the double teams and injury) the pocket is not collapsing as often. This gives the QB time to locate him if he gets free.
Maybe Dom should send some more corner blitzes off the left side.
Just a thought (perhaps one we all know)
SUPER BOWL CHAMPS
Not a criticism of Capers...
But I read recently that he hasn’t been giving the interior pass rushers the opportunity to get after the QB. Mostly they have to play the run first and when they see its pass then can try to go after the QB. He’s asking the interior DT on pass downs to play run first which severely limits what they can do in pass rush. The times when the DT can rush (called Jet rushes) have been down severely from last year. The jet rush the DT line up w/ the feet staggered to like a sprinter, to get a good explosion off the ball. When asked to play run first the DT line up w/ the feet square and parallel to the LOS this severely impacts the explosiveness w/ which they can generate pass rush. Don’t know Capers reasoning if this is true, but it does explain the poor interior pass rush.
Would be interested to know where you came up w/ the fact that Hawks play has been sbupar in every aspect! Guessing this is ONLY YOUR OPINION rather than actually based on facts. He is by no means playing very well, but at the same time I don’t think he has been subpar either. Pretty much the same Hawk we’ve seen for a few years now. And when Hawk blitzes, he almost alway does it w/ Bishop and Hawk is asked to take up the blockers w/ Bishop coming behind him, generally free except for a RB.
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Would be interested to know where you came up w/ the fact that Hawks play has been sbupar in every aspect! Guessing this is ONLY YOUR OPINION rather than actually based on facts.
ProFootballFocus has his graded negatively in every single category, run defense, coverage, pass rush.
He is by no means playing very well, but at the same time I don’t think he has been subpar either.
… So average? I mean, being slightly off isn’t wrong altogether.
Jay Cutler, first NFL quarterback to beat a playoff team with a losing record.
OK so here we go...
through 8 games this year we have 19 sacks…
through 8 games last year we had 21 sacks…
Maybe someone can up with stats on pressures and/or hits on QB. My guess is they are down, but not by much.
Can’t we just employ Occam’s Razor for a sec here? Instead of convoluted explanations about Jenkins magic powers (even though we averaged the same number of sacks with him [5 games/15 sacks] as without him last year [11/31sacks] ), can’t we just go with the simplest, most direct explanation that Mathews has NOT been healthy most of the year and that explains the drop-off? And just maybe Raji, after a 21 game season last year and all the minutes he has put in last year and this, that maybe he is tired? Or maybe injured as well?
I think the “Jenkins effect” (who helped produce a grand total of ZERO sacks when Philly got embarrassed by Chicago last night) is overblown.
by PackFaninFL on Nov 9, 2011 12:13 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Well
Bringing back Jenkins would’ve hurt Finley for next year, Ted made up his mind and I have no problem with not bringing him back. As for
And just maybe Raji, after a 21 game season last year and all the minutes he has put in last year and this, that maybe he is tired?
You must have missed it, but I clearly pointed that out in my writeup.
Matthews is playing better than last year, by the way, exclude one of the greatest three game spans by a pass rusher in history (First three games of last year), so I don’t know what you’re trying to prove here.
Jay Cutler, first NFL quarterback to beat a playoff team with a losing record.
..can’t we just go with the simplest, most direct explanation that Mathews has NOT been healthy most of the year and that explains the drop-off? And just maybe Raji, after a 21 game season last year and all the minutes he has put in last year and this, that maybe he is tired?
Matthews was hurt all last season too, and towards the end had a fractured fibia something or another in his leg. Raji is playing close to the same snap count as he did last season.
You’re crazy if you don’t think Jenkins being gone hasn’t effected us. Go watch all the x’s and o’s videos with Butler and Silverstein. Butler has said repeatedly that OL’s have just shifted towards Matthews all season long. And he’s also said that teams weren’t really able to do this against us last season because Jenkins was so quick and could just knife through the gap. He also said this forced teams to go man on man against our DL, which was where Raji did the majority of his damage.
Whether you want to admit it or not, Jenkins helped Matthews (and Raji) in a big way. Let’s not downplay that simply because he’s not on our team anymore.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Nov 9, 2011 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Matthews and Raji.
Matthews was hurt from about game 4 last year til about game 12. I think just after thanksgiving last year is when he started to play better again. Also the end of the year is when Raji did most of his damage and that happens to correspond to when Jenkins was not playing. I think Jenkins missed the final 4 games of the year… So that conclusion isn’t totally accurate either. Raji got only like 2 sacks in game when Jenkins was playing, the rest in games he didn’t play.
I think its hard to pinpoint exactly why the pass rush has been down. Jenkins doesn’t explain that much to say that its all cuz of him. Lots of other factors involved.
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Stroh you might know this...
I was bouncing this around in another forum, last year it seems we had lots of “coverage sacks” — wish I could find confirmation of that.
Tramon was a literal blanket on receivers, Shields was much more consistent and even Woodson was a year younger and had tighter coverage. I think Tramon’s injury has left receivers much more open the last 6 games and Shields has been very up and down (I still think he has a bright future).
I wonder how many “coverage sacks” we had then, compared to now? Who knows, I suppose.
I think its hard to pinpoint exactly why the pass rush has been down. Jenkins doesn’t explain that much to say that its all cuz of him. Lots of other factors involved.
I think it’s much more reasonable to assume his absence is the explanation for the lack of pass rush then it is to assume its other factors. I think other things are probbaly definitely playing into it but I don’t doubt for a second that a lot of it has to do with Jenkins. I know he’s gone now, so that means everybody is gonna try to discredit how good he was for us but the fact is he had 7 sacks in 11 games. The production doesn’t lie.
I the fact that we have close to as many sacks this season as last is mostly due to coverage. I know one of Matthews’ sacks against the Vikes was a coverage sack, Walden’s sack Sunday was coverage/hustle sack, and all of Wynn’s sacks have been coverage sacks — aside from one where he came unblocked against the Bears. I’ve obviously got nothing to base that on from what I remember from games this season though. And it seems like a lot of our sacks this year are coming from us bringing a blitz (Bishop has 4 I believe). It seemed like last season we got a lot more sacks when we were just rushing 4, which is something that seems pretty rare this season. It’d be interesting to see numbers on that.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Nov 9, 2011 8:54 PM CST up reply actions
I think the "Jenkins effect" (who helped produce a grand total of ZERO sacks when Philly got embarrassed by Chicago last night) is overblown.
This is also beyond irrelevant — but since you brought it up, he does have 5 sacks this season in 8 games. Pretty good, huh?
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Nov 9, 2011 6:06 PM CST up reply actions
Why doesn't this make sense...
when Jenkins was absent from games last year, the Packers had the SAME sack rate (don’t have figures on pressures/hits). So how did they manage that if Jenkins is the determinative factor in our pass rush decline?
In fact, Raji had his biggest sack game in Jenkins’ absence, the Patriot game, no?
Which begs the question, why don’t we do NOW what we did THEN in Jenkins absence?
The answers seems straight forward: Raji and Mathews are simply not playing at the monster level they achieved the year before. With or without Jenkins, they were Beast.
Would Jenkins help? Sure, if you consider 4 tackles, zero QB sacks and zero QB hits the last 3 games much help.
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And quit picking on me.
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by PhoenicianPakFan on Nov 9, 2011 8:38 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Boom roasted.
13.
Grossman: Sup, you insulin needing bitch! The sex cannon has arrived! Now get the hell out of my locker room, you chinless mother fucker!
The answers seems straight forward: Raji and Mathews are simply not playing at the monster level they achieved the year before. With or without Jenkins, they were Beast.
You realize Jenkins had more sacks than Raji last season, right? Why are you saying that he played like a beast last season?
My point is this: Jenkins allowed Matthews to see more single teams, and when Matthews was doubled up, it usually left him singled up, which he always seemed to take advantage of. When teams just shifted all their protection to Matthews, Jenkins made them pay. Who has done that this season? Nobody, right?
Would Jenkins help? Sure, if you consider 4 tackles, zero QB sacks and zero QB hits the last 3 games much help.
So, you decided you’d go from picking one specific game to picking three games? If we’re gonna play that game, then yes, I’d gladly take a DT who had 5 sacks and 16 tackles from week 1 through week 5. Those are pretty good numbers, no?
Sorry, if you feel like I’m picking on you. I’m not trying to, I’m just voicing my opinion on the subject.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Nov 9, 2011 9:06 PM CST up reply actions
Greened
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Green
I wouldn’t mind seeing more of Green. If nothing else he should demand a double team and maybe free up Raji. Maybe it’s just the play in the super bowl that I remember, but I think he could play more snaps and be effective on passing downs.
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Couple of things
One, I would think that Raji is getting tired being out there all the time. We should spell him sometimes, but we really don’t have anyone else that can stop the run and rush the passer like him in the DL. Add that to our other DL getting very little pressure, and the QB’s can step up into the pocket to avoid outside pressure.
Two, our OLB’s. Walden isn’t getting pressure, and Matthews is having some trouble too. I think the quad injury he has is something more serious than they are letting on, and that it is limiting him a little bit.
Pass rush
If anything, it might be that teams have been successful in scheming the Packers pass rush, sliding help to Matthews side and getting good pick-ups from their backs. Raji is probably getting doubled and the Pickett/Wynn don’t offer much of anything. DE should be a priority in next years draft.
Probably due to several reasons
It seems that the absence of Jenkins does makes some difference, if it’s nothing but his own production of 7 sacks in 11 games. But you also have to take into account double teams and attention from RBs that he may have gotten that is now directed elsewhere.
Matthews did start last year with two 3-sack games. He only had 7.5 sacks in the other 14 games, so he isn’t far off that pace. I think that his quad injury could be hampering him also. Certainly, neither him nor the coaching staff is going to say much about it. Raji also doesn’t seem to be getting the same push as last year. He has said that linemen are stepping back on him to avoid getting beat by his quickness.
Between Walden and Zombo they had 7 sacks at ROLB, and they have only 2 so far this year. So production there is down also.
While Hawk and Bishop have more sacks on blitzes, I think the DBs have fewer. So blitzes were also productive for sacks last year.
Another issue is coverage. Going by what I see in games, it certainly seems that receivers are open more frequently than I remember from last year and QBs are often able to get rid of the ball more quickly.
In any case, if the lack of an excellent pass rush were due to one fairly simple reason, I think the defensive coaches would have found a solution by now. It seems to me that it is the result of several things not being quite right.
Pass Rush Stats
I think we all forget that as the SB champs, the Pack has a bullseye on their backs and that the Packers game film has probably been watched more than any other team. Every team that plays the Packers is putting out 110% to give their teams something to build on or to even say at least they beat or played the champs well to make up for a bad game/season, etc… I also feel that they play loose and more for the turnover, than having better coverage, and will keep doing so as long as it keeps working and the defense, keeps putting points on the board. As long as Rodgers keeps doing what he does, the defense, seems to be happy to allow the big plays and go for the highlight reel type turnovers, but they do seem to pull it together when it counts, play better in the red zone, and stop the opposing teams when they have to. I just hope this kind of play don’t bite them and they have a game get away from them and ruin the dynamic of the defense they have in place and start a losing trend.
It seems they could be better like last year, and maybe they will when it comes to crunch time. I think they have the players, they just haven’t gelled like we want them to, and hopefully they are holding back something for when they really need it. Who knows? Every coach would like to keep and ace in the hole, and while I don’t know if that is the case here, but it does seem as though the defenders are looking for the turnover more than they are at defending the player they are assigned. Look at how Denver won with only two completions from Tebow….. Sometimes you just do what works and keep everyone guessin….
Dan
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