WHY DECERTIFY - All You Wanted To Know About The Lockout And CBA, But Were Afraid To Ask - The Book
I am a fan of my team and you root for yours, but we all love our Football and are frustrated that there may be no season. We look for answers for what is going on with the Lockout and CBA, but all we seem to get is a fog of PR and spin. This is my attempt to get beneath that PR spin and examine all of the factors that have brought us to this point.
However, before we attempt to analyze this situation we must have the correct mindset. While Football is just an entertaining game to us, to the players it is their job. It is what puts food on the table and takes care of their family. For every "live high on the hog", headline grabbing millionaire player, there are 10 like Jets' guard Matt Slauson, who moved his family in with his parents in order to save money during the lockout. This was a job that they worked and trained for years to get, and they are the best of the best at what they do (no matter how much of a bum we think they are). They get hurt, give them a shot of a pain killer and send them back on the field, it was recently revealed that wide receiver Jerricho Cotchery played the whole 2010 season with a herniated disk in his back. For them, at any time their dream come true, can turn into a nightmare of pain, disability, and despair. Their average playing life is less then five years because their physical deterioration catches up to them. Some may be famous and self-centered prima-donnas, but for the vast majority, we will never hear their names. They are not just "Millionaire Playboys", on the whole, they are average people who just happen to have a difficult but very well paying job, and are doing what they can to protect it. Now put yourself in their place.
I would tell you to put yourself in the owners place, for I am sure they have real problems and concerns since the owners talk about them all the time. But I can not know for sure what these are, because the same owners are doing their best to hide any real evidence or proof of them. However, unlike the characterization, all the owners are not "Billionaires", there are many nice middle-class people in Green Bay, a small city of 120 thousand people which has had a non-profit, community-owned team since the 1920's. It is the only exception to the 1960 rule in the NFL Constitution that required the teams to be a closely held, for profit private organization.Yet, it makes no business sense for the owners to have rules to prevent each other from becoming a public corporation, even if they want to do so. This could allow them to raise money for new stadiums the old fashion way, selling stocks and bonds. This behavior is unlike most business owners who consider their IPO (Initial Public Offering) their big payday, their chance to "cash out." All the owners would have to do is open the books, for the public investors to see. While under normal business circumstances it makes no sense, it is the owners choice, their decision, their business and their profit or loss. They must have their reasons.
The first thing that should be kept in mind that this is a Lockout in which the owners are asking the players to reduce conditions (benefits) that the players already have; not a Strike based on the players asking for more benefits. The players have said many times they are willing to work under the present contract, which has been in effect since 1993, and been extended five times. However, the owners don't want that, they will not allow the players to return to work until there is a new agreement with the Union. That is why there can be no season with "replacement players" as there was in the football Strike of 1987.
The owners are asking for "Give Backs" in the contract as far as the percentage of NFL revenue they share with the Players Association (NFLPA). This would directly impact the income of the players as a group, and therefore indirectly impact the possible income of players as individuals. It would seem that it is only fair and reasonable that the owners would justify their demands, with something more then words, before the players gave up the right to something they already had. Particularly since it appears the owners are doing better financially then they have ever done before. The present salary cap system was accepted by the employees (Players) in exchange for their giving up the right to unlimited free agency.
First organized in 1956, the NFLPA was not recognized by the owners. Finally In 1968, the NFLPA won recognition from the owners and started to negotiate its first collective bargaining contract. On July 3, 1968, after talks with the owners stalled, the NFLPA voted to strike, and the owners countered by declaring a lockout. But on July 14, the owners relented and the brief strike was over. However, the concessions the Players received were small. The owners compromised by agreeing to contribute about $1.5 million to the pension fund, but maintained minimum salaries of $9,000 for rookies, $10,000 for veterans and $50 per exhibition game.
After they lost their strike in 1987 the Players Association dissolved as a union; and under federal labor law, the players gained standing to file class-action lawsuits against their employers. In 1988, a federal judge ruled that the NFL's unilateral rules limiting free agency did, in fact, impose unlawful restriction on the players' rights to sell their labor to the highest bidder. Unlimited free agency meant, at the end of each players' contract, they would be an unrestricted free agent with no limit, or rules, on what any owner could offer to pay him. This is similar to what exists in Baseball. However, because of the uncertainty of the on-going court cases, both sides decided to compromise and come to an agreement. Therefore, the Players Association again certified itself as a union, and entered into negotiations with the NFL.
In 1993 the NFL and the Players Association, on behalf of the players agreed to the CBA. The players gave up their right to unlimited free agency in exchange for a set percentage of the NFL's revenue which is defined by the Cap. The owners, in exchange, now knew that the free market competition for players services would be limited and governed by certain rules. In addition, the owners received the assurance that the total of players salaries would never be above a certain percentage of their revenues, as defined by the Cap. This was a significant accommodation on the part of the players to the owners. In the eyes of the union, the percentage of NFL revenue reflected in the Cap was bought and paid for already by the Players, in their loss of unlimited free agency. This is the heart and soul belief of the NFLPA and unless there is an extraordinary situation, it is non-negotiable. Since it was founded in 1956, The NFLPA's goal was winning 55 percent of league revenues for players, and it took a victory in court, and the loss of that victory through a negotiated compromise, to finally enable it to do so.
In any case, if your boss came to you and told you, and your fellow workers, that you were going to take a pay cut, wouldn't you ask: Why? Is it because the owner wants to buy a new Caribbean villa, or put this eight year old son on the payroll, or is the business really going broke? In the words of President Reagan, you should trust, but verify. And wouldn't you be upset if the only answer your boss gave you was "because I am your boss and it is my business, and you are too dumb to understand why anyway." You would do everything you could to prevent the pay cut, including taking legal action, and going to court. This is why there is the controversy over "opening the books," and why a perceived lack of respect and progress caused the Union to decertify.
IF A PERSON FEELS SOMETHING IS VERY VALUABLE TO THEM, SUCH AS THE LEVEL OF THE CAP IS TO THE UNION, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE IT UP JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE SAYS THEY NEED IT. PROVE IT, AND THEN THEY WILL CONSIDER IT. AND YOU HAVE TO BE REALLY STUPID IF YOU TELL THEM SUCH JUSTIFICATION IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS, AND YOU EXPECT A POSITIVE RESPONSE.
As an aside, in regards to looking into the owner's books: When I was a young man, I was involved in the computer revolution. I made a great deal of money, so I became a chapter S small business corporation. I bought a fancy new sport car, which I called a business expense; put my “girlfriend” on the payroll for "services rendered"; took a lot of “business” trips to luxury resorts to attend so called business meetings or conferences; took friends to football games using my season tickets to improve our business relationship – you get the idea. At the time, they were all 100% tax deducible as a business expense, and who was to say they were not. Every year I would attach a short summary of my books to my tax statement and the government never challenged me, because there were no details. I could do this because no one was watching me, and I was only judge if these expenditures improved my business prospects. I was not a public company so there was no one who was micro-managing my affairs. Nobody knew what I was doing, and if they did they were butting into my business, which they had no right to do.
There is a general misunderstanding about that this Lockout is all about at its core. This can be explained by employee relationship (the players) to the owners which exists on two different levels.
The first level is the group relationship as a whole. This was represented by the Union in the past, and is now represented by the Players Association. The Association differs from the Union, in that legally it can not speak in any BINDING way for the players. Legally (under National Labor Relations Law) the players have no longer certified the Union to act in their behalf, this was the decertification. The former Union is now only an association, (like the National Association of Manufacturers, or Chamber of Commerce) which can advise on common interests, but can not enter into an agreement that binds all of its members. Since the NLRB (National Labor Relations Board) only governs Employer/Union relationships, its rules governing Fair Practices are no longer in effect. Each player now can act on their own, acting in their own interest. To protect their interests when they feel they are being impinged upon, like any American, they go to court. A Judge in the legal/litigation will make a decision if any rights were violated, and make the rules that govern the enforcement of his decision. This is a much more uncertain situation for all involved.
Under these circumstances, the best result is that the Lockout is ended, and under the supervision of the judge, the representatives (Lawyers) for each side will work out something agreeable to both sides. On the other hand, the worse case would be the Judge will render a decision which is binding on both parties, and this would be the precedent for years of appeals and litigation. In the pass the players have almost always prevailed in the anti-trust cases in court. However, a Union can not go to court, and as long as there is a union a player can not go to court individually. They are bound by the collective bargaining process between the employer and the union, no matter how long that may take. In collective bargaining, the only factor that rules is which side can take the economic pain longer, in court there is the unknown "wild card" of what is the law. It is no longer just a war of attrition, and may in fact, be ended earlier. That is why the owners are fighting the union's decertification. (This may be a first, an employer wanting a Union to stick around, I have never heard of this before.)
The final offer from the owners was given to the Union six hours before the CBA expired. In some ways there was an improvement in the owners offer, such as the diminished insistence on the 18 game schedule next year, but in other more important aspects to the Union it was a step backwards. It was one step forward, one step back. Overall, the Union felt no progress was being made in negotiations, they were a sham before an inevitable lockout by the owners. The negotiations were just delaying the inevitable, and that was an advantage for the owners. The feeling that the Lockout was inevitable was based on the documents made public after Federal Judge David Doty's ruling on the television rights contracts (the Lockout insurance), and the NFL's appeal of "American Needle vs. the NFL" to the Supreme Court. In this case the NFL argued that it, along with its 32 teams, were a “single entity” and therefore immune to the Sherman Antitrust Act when they act jointly in a business effort. Which, in broad effect, would end the ability of a player to be a free agent. The NFL lost the case 9-0, although the court limited the effects of its decision.
When the Union felt that there is no chance for compromise on the owners part, or even their part, they felt they had no other option then go to court. The members of the Players Association would feel no major pain until the start of the season, when they would miss their first check. If this whole negotiation was a sham, maybe going to court will bring this whole thing to a head and force an agreement on both sides before the start of the season. Remember there is no sure thing in court, so both sides will have pressure on them to reach an agreement, like a "Plea Bargain". Negotiations between the parties occur all the time within the legal context. However, if the players waited until the CBA officially expired and an impasse was declared, they would have to wait 6 months before any player could go to court. That would mean we, the fans, would have to wait another 6 months before the courts could even start to end this situation. For sure, there would be no football this season. Therefore, the sooner this situation was brought to a court for resolution, the better.
However, once an unofficial agreement in principle is reached, the Union will be re-certified by the players. Then the Union on behalf of the players (employees) will formally accept the agreement. The the relationship between the employees and employers (owners) will now be governed by the agreement (CBA) under the NLRB rules of behavior. The Union's role is to set up the basic floor level that affected all of the players, all of its members, from the rookie fourth string lineman to the star like Revis, or Brady, this is the CBA. This floor governs the pay of 90% of the players.
However, there is also a second coexistent level of the players relationship to the owners, it is that of independent contractors, who individually sell their services to the owner. This "independent contractor" type of relationship exists in many Craft type of Unions (AFL) such as the Screen Actors Guild whose "stars" abide by the same rules and pay dues, as does the nameless "movie extra", but they make much more money because of their additional individual bargaining power. To that extent this other employee relationship, that of the independent contractor is completely separate from the Union; however it is build on the CBA foundational floor. The CBA can be considered as a common clauses in all the employment contracts of the players.
In theory the independent contractor status exists for all players, but in reality it does not, the rookie fourth string lineman is too easy to replace. He has no bargaining power other then that found in the group. Generally, the rookie fourth string lineman, relationship to the employer is solely governed by the CBA. They are not able to get for themselves benefits above and beyond those found in the CBA. But the star player, by virtual of his being a star, has more bargaining power, which he can use to get conditions above and beyond the average player. He is the exceptional employee who can go into his employer's office and demand more money, or else he will go to work for the employer's competitor. Under the anti-trust laws, all the employers in an industry can not work together (in collusion) to prevent that from happening.
When you join a union, you certify that it can act on your behalf in certain things, but only in certain things. In the players case, it can act on your behalf to set up a minimum salary for all its members. It can act on behalf of all its members to set up a minimum pool of money for the members of each team or even a maximum pool (the cap) for all the players as a group. But no player gives the Union the right to set up an maximum for any individual player. Each player reserves that right as an individual, and can not be forced to give up that right, since that is in fact a restraint of trade, and is illegal under the law. However, when they join the union they can agree to be voluntarily regulated by certain rules that restrict their ability to seek a new employer who pays more, this is a part of the CBA.
It must always be remembered, the role of a Union is to protect the average worker. The exceptional worker can always take care of themselves. But sometimes he will make sacrifices, so that the average worker benefits. This is the most important strength of a union. That is why the lead plaintiffs in the anti-trust case against the owners include Star quarterbacks Tom Brady of the New England Patriots, Peyton Manning of the Indianapolis Colts and Drew Brees of the New Orleans Saints.
The owners want to shrink, in effect, that common money pool available to all the players in the future. This will most effect the average player. A star player like Revis or Brady will always have the right to hold out - refuse to play - for any team. They will always have the ability to receive top dollars. This lockout is not about Billionaires vs Millionaires, but rather Billionaires vs the great mass of players who make just over the minimums under the CBA. Some players will always be millionaires, and will not be effected, no matter what the new CBA is. But the average player and fourth string lineman will be.
But why did the owners terminate the contract a year early, bringing on this whole mess. It is not that the owners broke the contract, they oped out as they had the right to do under the CBA, but why did they do so? It is all about the money that will be paid in the new contract between the NFL and the TV networks. The TV networks need to know their budgets before they make their commitment for the pilots of new shows. Therefore they want to know what they will paying for the NFL rights as soon as possible. However if the deal is done while the current CBA is in effect, the expected players share will be known. The owners did not want that to happen. The NFL will be too successful to make arguments for economic relief. They would rather negotiate while the real numbers are unknown.
The TV trade newspaper "The Hollywood Reporter" reports that TV industry analysts expect the NFL will attain its next set of TV agreements for the period beginning in 2014 right after it signs a new collective bargaining agreement with the players association. They estimated that the new long-term NFL rights agreements with ESPN, CBS, Fox and NBC could add $46 billion in additional sports commitments for the TV industry, more then an additional 4.5 Billion per year above what they presently pay. Sports Business Daily reported that ESPN alone would pay $1.8 billion to 1.9 billion annually, up from $1.1 billion, for a new contract. According to the Players Association when they rejected owners proposal, they stated "Your proposal also would have given the owners 100% of all revenues above the low projections, including the first year of new TV contracts in 2014. Your offer did NOT meet the players halfway when it would have given 100% of the additional revenues to the owners." In two years, there would be no question about what kind of money they were talking about, it would no longer be a low projection by the owner, the numbers would be known.
The NFL salary cap, prior to the present CBA extension was based on a percentage of "Defined Gross Revenue" (DGR). This was the revenue shared by the 32 NFL teams. The biggest pieces of DGR were the multibillion dollar television contracts. The DGR also included ticket sales and team and NFL branded merchandise sales. What DGR didn’t include was local revenue, which includes local sponsorships like stadium naming rights and radio broadcasts. However, those local revenue streams are now included into the common and salary cap pool, called "Total Revenue."
This was done at the last extension of the CBA at the suggestion of the owners in order to resolve a conflict between the large market owners and the small market owners. The teams in New York, for example, received much more local revenue then the team in Kansas City. Since the pool of money was larger the Union was willing to take a smaller percentage of it, because the actual dollars the players received was increased. However, it must be remembered the pool to be shared was expanded at the owners request, not to satisfy a Union demand. Currently, the players take home approximately 55% share of Total Revenue. The share was higher – in the low to mid 60's – when using the DGR system prior to the 2006 CBA, but even with a lower percentage, it results in an increased salary cap due to the larger starting revenue pool.
The owners argue they need to reduce the Cap share of the players because many new stadiums need to be built, and they are no longer getting help from the state. While I don't know how many stadiums "need" to be built, since many average Jet and Giant fans report very little difference in their actual experience of games as compared between the old and new stadiums. However, it is true, the cost of building a new stadium for the owners is going up, as municipalities no longer fund them. Yet, the owners already have sources of revenue, much of which is not shared with the players, that can be used to offset this lost. Some examples:
1) The naming rights to their new stadiums. Among others, Reliant Energy paid the Houston Texans 400 million dollars for those rights for 32 years, Fed Ex is paying the Washington Redskins 200 million for the rights for the 27 years. Not a bad start for paying off a new stadium, however since 2006 it has been a part of the Cap.
2) The newer stadiums have large club box seats and private suites, which are leased to corporations for thousands and 10's of thousands of dollars. The money, in excess to the price of a normal seat, is not shared with either the players or other owners. It is imperative to distinguish between “ticket revenue” from luxury boxes, which is “subject to gate receipt sharing among NFL teams and the players,” and non-ticket luxury box revenue, which is not subject to revenue sharing. The fancier, more expensive the box, the lower the proportion that needs to be shared. Thus the owners have a big incentive to get a new stadium with fewer normal seats and more corporate seats. The owners will be getting a lot more money from these seats as this report suggests: "Cowboys Stadium has about 320 suites, and now the Dallas Cowboys have gone to court to force 10 luxury suite holders to honor their 20-year leases. The leaseholders put down deposits of $15,000 to $210,000, but stopped paying. Under the terms of the agreement, if a payment is missed, the entire balance becomes due. In the case of the current lawsuits, $82.3 million is at stake." Assuming this is a representative sample, the Cowboys could expect more then 2.6 Billion dollars over the next 20 years from just those 320 suites. This alone would pay the total cost of the construction of the stadium, with a billion dollars left over.
3) The Personal Seat License (PSL) which is a one time payment of $5k, $10k, $15k to have the right (?) to pay another $60 - $150 per ticket per game. If you don't have a PSL, you can't buy your annual season ticket, no matter how many years you have had your tickets. This is not considered revenue, subject to sharing. According to reports the NY Giants stood to make some 340 million from the sale of their PSL's, that are sold for $5,000 to $20,000 per seat, depending upon seat location. The Jets will sell PSL's for their games in the same stadium, and presumably make the same amount. It is only after they have put this money in the bank, do the teams sell their Tickets for the games. Of course since everything is bigger in Texas, the Cowboys' PSL's range from $15,000 to $150,000. If you're building a billion dollar stadium, someone has to pay. In both cases the PSL's offset a substantial part of the cost of the new stadium.
4) Concession revenue, such as $5 Hot Dogs, $14 Deli Sandwiches, $8 Beers, are not shared with the players nor the other owners. In the past this revenue stream represented peanuts, but now with the growth of auxiliary services found in the new stadiums, it can be a very significant amount. The new stadiums now include restaurants, gift and clothing shops, and game arcades. The NFL is about tailgating, first paying 25 to thirty dollars for your parking spot in a enormous lot, and then partying with fellow fans. It is not about people wandering through an local area to spend money before and after a game. The owners don't want fans to spend their money anywhere except at team-licensed or owned facilities within or adjacent to the stadium.
The owners want customers, not fans. Customers can spend money for very expensive personnel seat licenses, club seats, luxury boxes and dine in expensive stadium eateries. Customers can also take off the cost of sports tickets as a business expense. This is why so many owners are pushing for very expensive luxurious new stadiums, not aimed at fans who can seldom afford the five to six hundred dollars, on average, for a family of four to attend a game. The stadiums must be big and luxurious, so that for the "Average Joe Fan" who attends one game, it is an event to be remembered. For their every game customers, their season ticket holder, it is a happening which is mostly a chance to social network.
I have tried to be fair and objective in my presentation, however it is difficult to be so, when you only have hard data from one side. The conclusions I can draw from the data that I have, would seem to indicate the NFL does not need the players help to keep it from going broke; or is it even necessary for the NFL's growth. Nor have the owners promised, for the good of the game, they would lower ticket prices with the money the players gave back. Absent data to the contrary, I have no other choice then to "side" with the players, otherwise I would be just lapsing into a subjective ideological position.
In Summary, given the history of the labor relationship between the NFLPA and the NFL, I can see why the percentage of the Cap is an non-negotiable item, absent a financial crisis on the part of the owners. It took the NFLPA thirty-five years to win it, and they are afraid that once it is reduced, they will be on the slippery slope, they will never get it back. Once it became evident that the owners were not going to move from their insistence that there be some lowering of the Cap, nor were they going to justify their stand in a meaningful way, it became in essence a non-negotiable item for the owners also. No matter how much farther negotiations continued in time, they were at an impasse. An impasse that could only be solved, through the courts. Was the decertification a sham? Yes it was, but it was a only a tactic to get this dispute quickly settled in the only way it could be, in court. When the Major item is non-negotiable for both sides, all the negotiations in the world are not going to bring an end to the dispute. The so call negotiations were a sham, which only delayed the possible start of our football season.
If you found this posting to be worthwhile, please recommend it. You have my permission to eMail or copy this to wherever you like.
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Wasn't this a response in another thread?
Either way, I’m done with lockout/CBA/woners/NFLPA/etc talk. When they want to get something done, they will. We’ve all picked our sides and none of it matters cause neither of them care about us anyway.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Mar 20, 2011 1:01 PM CDT reply actions
Couldn't agree more.
When you cut through the crap really for fans most of these types of things are posturing. The business of football is interesting, but unless you are in the business it’s not so interesting that all the nitty gritties need to be laundered out.
Each side will sort this through or the courts will now sort it through for them. Something will get done. Wake me up when that happens.
by PackApologist on Mar 20, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
It's frustrating
Because I’ve been watching this unfold for a while and could see that the owners wanted the players to take a pay cut, and the players saw no reason for it.
I see no reason why the players need to take a pay cut either. The NFL sells out most games, in newer and more profitable stadiums (usually paid mostly by local taxpayers), and they’ve got the networks and Direct TV because the only shows that are getting better ratings every year are NFL games. Maybe a team specific argument can be made that certain teams are struggling, but not the league overall.
Totally with the players here..
I go to Lambeau or any other NFL stadium to watch players play, not owners own. In fact, it really annoys me when an owner in a $3,000 suit watches from the sidelines like the spoiled little rich kid most of them are.
Owners have really very little risk in the game of owning an NFL franchise. They usually have guaranteed TV money, licensing money from merchandise, concessions, parking, and a salary cap to keep them from suicide on the expenditure side. They usually then go to the local community for sweeheart deals and threaten moving if they need any large capital expediture.
Players on the other hand have a very limited career. Players run a very significant injury risk every time they take the field as well as the toll the game takes on their bodies over time. Players are usually from economically challenged backgrounds and cannot afford to make many money mistakes.
I am not usually a flag waver for the players, but in this case without guaranteed contracts and the huge injury risk, it’s hard not to be.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Player are employees...
And are easily replaced in most cases… That makes them expendable assets! There is an endless supply of guys ready to take their place if they don’t want to play due to the risks… The fact that their expendable is exactly the reason they’ll never get guarenteed contracts! Large signing bonuses and roster bonuses early in contracts are the form of guarentees in the NFL… So its not like most of it isn’t guarenteed! Just not all of it…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You think the owners are less expendable than the players?
It would be different to watch a game played by Aaron Rodgers vs. Ryan Perrilloux
I don’t think it would be vastly different to watch a game played by a team owned by Jerry Jones vs. Mark Cuban or some other rich guy.
13.
Sheesh you are nothing if not argumentative!!!
I SAID easily replacable in MOST cases!!! Read next time… Let me know how many Billionaires there are walking around interested in dropping all their cash on NFL teams… Do you really think that more than 50% of NFL player couldn’t be replaced w/o a noticable drop in on field play? Never mind I know how you’ll answer just to keep the argument alive…
BTW- Cuban already owns the Mavs and last I heard wanted the Cubs… How many teams is gonna buy? One in every sport? I think not…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
the 50% of the players that can't be replaced is the reason for its popularity!!!!!!
Cuban would rather own an NFL team than a baseball team, I’m sure. The reason he isn’t an NFL owner is because there’s none of the “soon-to-be-money-losing” owners who have any interest in selling because it’s so profitable. All you need as an owner is a lot of capital, and there are a lot of people in America who have that, probably .01% of Americans, let alone all the group of shareholders. Certainly it would be easier to find 32 owners than to find 1696 NFL caliber players. The players certainly aren’t that expendable.
13.
I told you don't bother to reply... We all know how you need to argue w/ me!
I understand that some are irreplaceable and the reason for the popularity! But how many per team are there? Count the difference makers per team and you have the irreplacable guys! The rest are role players and fringe players that are EASILY replacable… I’ll give you about 12 difference makers on the Packers… Beyond that is reaching…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
1/3 of the team
That is less than 50% of the players are irreplacable… Like I said… "Do you really think that more than 50% of NFL player couldn’t be replaced w/o a noticable drop in on field play? Thanx for making my point… LMAO
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Those are your numbers, congratulations on making your own point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even using your debatable numbers, it’s over 1/3 of the team that’s irreplaceable. Show me 11 owners who are irreplaceable, and you might have a valid point., but as usual, you have none.
13.
Easily replaced..?
I don’t think so. These guys are the best in the world at what they do. That is why they are getting paid what they do. A lot of guys can play football, not many at the level of an Aaron Rodgers etc.
They don’t get guaranteed money because of the injury risk. The baseball player union is very strong and they get guaranteed contracts. If Zack Grienke never pitches an inning for the Brewers, he still gets paid…no matter how he hurt himself.
If the owners think that Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers are easily replaced, then they should by all means play the 2011 season with replacements. We’ll see what would happen to their investments.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Barnett? easily replaced...
Hawk? not too hard to replace. Kuhn? easily replaced. About half the starters have backups nearly as good who can take their roles… Without a noticable dropoff in quality of play!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
hmmm. I think you are mistaken about contracts. If a player gets hurt while playing in the NFL, the team cannot get rid of him. Grienke would still get paid if he were an NFL player. They do sometimes buy out an injured guys contract though but he’s still getting paid.
The non guaranteed aspect comes into play with guys who don’t make the cut and ya know what, that is how it should be. Why should a contract be guaranteed…where is the motivation for a player to play his best if his contract is guaranteed. That is why basketball is such a suckbath these days.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
The owners have little risk? HUH? They have hundreds of millions of dollars locked up in players, employees, stadiums, uniforms, concessions, advertising, etc. I think you are seriously underestimating what the owners put on the line to allow these players to have a chance to be millionaires to play a damn game. THEY ARE PLAYING A GAME FOR A JOB!
Most got a free ride to college which they likely pissed away.
Most were treated like kings in HS and college.
They get to be famous and have endorsement deals on the side.
…and once again they get to be paid to play a game.
Really I should feel sorry for them???? Honeslty I am already sick of both of these people. None of them give two flying #$!$ about us. They will keep raising prices rather than trying to control the costs. Salary keeps going up despite a huge recession. Ticket prices go up. Concessions go up. Whatever…I am DONE with going to games. I really hope they don’t destroy my fav sport like MLB did back in the 90s. I really don’t want to turn my back on the sport for a decade.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Newer more profitable stadiums cost 100's of millions of dollars!
That debt and the players salaries increasing faster than revenue is the reason the owners are asking for a little back… Packers have gone from making 20+M a couple years ago to barely 5M last year! In another year or two of the current system the owners would be losing money! Any system that causes the owners to lose money is bad for business!!! Any business!! Owners want and need to pay down the debt, thats why they are trying to get the players to take a slightly lower % of revenues to allow them to pay off the new stadiums! BTW, the players still could have gotten a raise over the next 3-4 years, just a slightly lower % of revenues!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Please..
the last NFL owner to sell because he lost money was..?
“Any system that causes the owners to lose money is bad for business”..huh? The system isn’t “causing” anyone to lose money. If an individual owner is losing money (are any of them?) it is the result of his own decision making, not the “system”.
Capitalism allows businesses to fail (unless you are Citibank or GM). The only way an NFL franchise would lose money would be from the poor decisions made by ownership aside from the CBA.
Any NFL owner that has gotten himself into debt problems should do just as the rest of the country does and cut back. Apparently there are many players wating to take over at lower salaries than currently being paid, right?
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Explain that to the Packers...
And while your at it tell them why their profits have dropped from 20M a couple years ago to 5M this year… And explain to them how its suddenly going to turn around! Cuz clearly they don’t know and need your expert advise! Didn’t say they are all losing money, but if a very well run organization like the Packers are getting close to reporting a loss, others certainly aren’t far behind! And this is not to include the worth of a team… You can’t pay employees w/ how much a franchise is valued at… Can only pay them w/ current revenue streams
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
One side of the ledger..
I have not seen the Packers financials, nor am I an accountant. But to just say that profits fell from $20M to $5M over the course of a few years only looks at one side of the equation. What have their expenses been over the last few years? Is the decrease in profits due soley to the CBA and players salaries?
The other factor is the NFL contract with the networks. I have no idea where they are in those contracts, but they are renegotiated every 3-5 years. I seriously doubt that those revenue streams are static. Those contracts usually make a big jump right after they are renegotiated.
In any case, the economy has effected nearly every business since 2008. Not surprising that an NFL franchise might not make as much as it did a few years ago.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
expenses...
No its not just the players salaries… Although thats a large part of it. But its also the fixed expenses such as stadium costs that are rising or at least causing the problems in profits to drop! The combinination of rising player costs and all the new stadiums that cost 100’s of Millions of dolllars are why the NFL was originally asking for an increase of 1B off the top to 2B (which the owners lowered to 1.32 off the top). The stadium debt is a huge expense that they want and need to pay down…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
why?
the tax payers are the ones who contribute the most for these new stadiums and don’t use jerry jones palace as an example of owner financed stadiums. the state of texas paid for all of the new roads, off ramps and other infrastructure for jerries new palace. those costs were around 275m.
cpocraig
Lambeau
While yes the taxpayers are picking up part of the tab, its not the whole tab… Not sure offhand, but I think the Packers had to pay about 1/2 of the price of the reconstruction! Its not like they got off scott free… Thats still 150M they had to pick up if it was 50%!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
In any case, the economy has effected nearly every business since 2008. Not surprising that an NFL franchise might not make as much as it did a few years ago.
Okay so taking that thought another step then. What has happened to payrolls at nearly every business since 2008? Pay freezes…pay cuts…job cuts…etc. What has happened to player salaries and the cap every year since 2008?
I’ll let that be rhetorical.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
well actually we don’t know the last NFL owner to lose money cause they don’t share that information, but honestly I think your perception of what they make year in and year out is skewed. I think you just assume they are making a killing despite the fact that we don’t know that information.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Further..
If NFL franchises were such money losing ventures, why are they worth hundreds of millions of dollars?
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Because they're rare.
There’s only 32 of them and there’s only ever going to be 32 of them (ok, maybe 34 or 36 someday, but you get what I mean).
I’m not saying revenue streams don’t have anything to do with their value, but as long as owning an NFL franchise conveys status, power, and are difficult to purchase, they’re going to be incredibly valuable even if the franchise in question is basically treading water financially.
Baseball’s a good example. The Brewers were losing money when Attanasio bought them and they were one of the least valuable teams in the MLB for close to 200 million. Chump change for most professional sports franchises, but still a dozen or more times what Selig paid for them.
Since Attanasio bought the Brewers the franchise has cleared out a lot of debt, maximized it’s revenues through local media and attendance records, and by 2008, the estimated value of the Brewers was up to 331 million according to Forbes (an increase of 131 million or more in just 4 years.) It’s gone up since then and the estimated value of the team is now in excess of 400 million, more than double what Attanasio paid for it in 2004.
So he must be making loads of cash, right? Not really. He’s jacked up the payroll and the team lost a little money in 2008 and 2010, while making a slight profit and 2009 (as near as Forbes and independent sources can figure).
So you’ve got a business that’s actually lost money in 2 out of the last 3 years increasing in value by about 25% in that same time frame.
Revenues matter, but when it comes to sports franchises, profitability doesn’t when it comes to the actual value of the team when it comes time to sell. It’s the rarity of the business, and the associated benefits and perks, that makes the value of these franchises continue to skyrocket.
BTW, I believe the owners when they say that some franchises (like the Bills) are either barely breaking even or losing money. I don’t think Buffalo would be eyeballing Toronto if that weren’t true.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 22, 2011 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
MLB franchise not same as NFL.
Your analysis completely overlooks the revenue sharing that goes on in the NFL and does not happen in MLB. The crown jewel of the NFL are its TV contracts with Fox, ESPN, and CBS, The MLB contracts with the major networks are no where near what the NFL owner gets. A MLB owner doesn’t have to share his local TV contract with other owners. Thats why the Yankees can afford to spend so much on player salaries and teams like Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Kansas City cannot. It is much, much tougher to make money and be competitve as a MLB franchise owner than it is in the NFL.
The Jerry Joneses and Bob Krafts of the NFL want to see a system more like MLB where the local team doesn’t share as much of the TV revenue. That way owners like Jones can build huge ego centric buildings for his team and the rest of the league be dammed.
I doubt anyone on this board would want the NFL to go the way of MLB.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Doesn’t change the point at all. Owners buy because of prestige, future intrinsic value when they resell, fun, challenge, and hopefully some profit on a year to year basis. They didn’t buy the team to see it lose money every year and fight for stadiums and deal with whiney millionaires that they made. There has to be SOME kind of value for them…don’t ya think???
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
right..
no one, even a Billionaire, would be interested in buying a team that had no chance of ever making money, would they?
Just look at the city of Pittsburgh. Both the Pirates and Steelers have realtively new stadiums. Both have teams rich in tradition and history. Steelers are worth much more. Why? I’m sure it’s because the Steelers make money and the Pirates don’t.
The bottom line has to worth something. Not all sports teams are expensive toys with no prospect whatever of making a profit.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
File under: Snyder, Daniel
Not all sports teams are expensive toys with no prospect whatever of making a profit.
13.
And even with a guy like Synder owning the Skins..
Forbes had the Redskins as the highest valued sports franchise as late as just a year or two ago.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Advanced business degree
Maybe someone w/ an advanced business degree can answer this for sure… But what I’ve learned or been taught is that when buying a business you pay 4 or 5 times the yearly profit margin as a general rule! So if the Packers were for sale say a couple years ago when they made 20M or a couple years before that when they made 30 or 40M then the value of that team should be 100M or 200M tops… Yet the Packers are valued at almost 1 Billion… Explain anyone?!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
That's totally and completely wrong.
And the answer is obvious: because even if they don’t turn a profit on an annual basis, they historically always go up in value on resale.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Tell that to Sam Zell..
The Cubs were thought to fetch over $1B when Zell first put them on the market. The Ricketts family got them for somewhere around $800M.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
LOL! Yeah, you're right.
That proves your point doesn’t it? I guess when the value of a franchise goes from 21 million in 1981 (when the Tribune Company bought them) to 800 million in 29 years, then that MUST prove that the value of sports franchises hasn’t skyrocketed historically.
Is that really your argument? Or am I missing something?
(Besides, the Tribune Company was in bankruptcy and had no choice but to sell, which isn’t exactly conducive to getting the best price.)
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
So tell me..
how does the value of a franchise skyrocket like that?
You seem to be telling me its because there are only 32 of them and they are very prestigace to own.
If only the stocks I owned were like that!
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
That's the explanation I have.
At least for teams on the margins in flawed leagues. Obviously teams like the Yankees/Cowboys etc. are essentially giant ATM machines and their value would continue to go up the same way the value of any profitable business would.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
"Not all sports teams are expensive toys with no prospect whatever of making a profit."
No one said otherwise. I certainly didn’t. nor did I say that the NFL isn’t, on average, a better league to be an owner in than the MLB, especially if you’re talking about a market like Pittsburgh. But none of that has anything to do with whether NFL teams on the margins (like the Bills) are making money when they pay salaries up to the cap.
And by the way, if you think the Pirates aren’t making money, you’re nuts. They’ve kept their payrolls tiny most years and they’re getting 20 million plus per year in revenue sharing via the luxury tax. That’s before they get their money for tickets, parking, local media, national media contracts and concessions.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess the "Baseball is a good example"..
argument then should be ignored.
My point remains the same. You would need to be really bad businessman to not make money with an NFL franchise. The salary cap, shared revenue, and relatively favorable labor conditions vs. other sports make the NFL the best deal out there.
Giving the players a few extra percentage points of revenue will not drive the owners to the poorhouse.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Giving the players a few extra percentage points of revenue will not drive the owners to the poorhouse
Under the last CBA the Packers profits dropped significantly and if it continued the Packers might be looking at losing money (a negative profit) as soon as next year! ANd you want the players to get MORE money? Thats only going to make the situation exponentially WORSE! The owners opted out of the CBA cuz they were on the verge of losing money and need to recoup some of the lost profits!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
We'll agree to disagree..
If you think the average NFL owner is on the verge of losing money, I have some swampland in Arizona to sell you. There is a reason the owners aren’t opening their books..
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Opening books...
When you finance new stadiums costing 100’s of Millions of dollars you have to have immaculate accounting records and financial records! You don’t get that type of credit unless your books are complety clean! Owners aren’t hiding books from the players, its just not the players business!
I live in AZ… No swampland here!!! LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You keep shifting the argument.
The argument isn’t whether the average NFL team is losing money, the argument is that some of the NFL teams are. The fact that the Packers are paying in to support other markets should answer that question for you in my opinion, but if that doesn’t convince you that’s fine, just don’t claim that we’re saying something we’re not.
Straw man arguments are annoying.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Look..
I didn’t say that “Baseball is a good example”. You did.
The system the NFL has set up makes it much easier fro small market teams like Green Bay to be competitive.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
I think we're confusing each other.
I agree with both of those things. I also think that the MLB, while being an inferior league to the NFL by most measures, clearly demonstrates that you can lose money on an annual basis and still make money in the end on the sale of the team because the value of professional teams goes up because they’re a rare commodity. That will continue to be true regardless of costs or profitability, as long as revenues remain stable.
That’s all I"m saying.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Trust me ..
I’m rarely on the side of labor..
The NFL is just different in my opinion..
I’ll stop..I respect your opinion, and thanks for your thoughts.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
Ditto. (On the last part anyway).
And for the record, I’m rarely on the side of employers in labor disputes.
Life’s a funny thing… :)
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Again..
It is my opinion that you’d have to be a really bad business person to lose money with an NFL franchise. I suppose it’s done. Heck, I suppose people lose money with a MacDonald’s franchise.
I’m sure the money losers would open their books to strengthen their case, no?
In any case, if they are losing money, I don’t think it’s because of the CBA.
Just my opinion.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
I don't think anyone lost money last year....
…because the salary floor was gone and many teams cut costs. But before that, I buy their argument.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
No one said anyone's headed for the poor house.
The issue is can all the teams spend to the cap and remain profitable. The owners say no and I believe them. Whether you do or not is your choice, I suppose.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure why you're guessing that (other than the fact that you can't refute it)...
… but whatever.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know what evidence you have that any owner is losing money
I guess no one can refute that either.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
They say they are.
The Bills, who’ve been in Buffalo their entire existence, are exploring the possibility of moving to Toronto.
The Vikings have said they’ll move without a new stadium.
The Jaguars can’t fill their stadium.
The Chargers are contemplating a move to Los Angeles.
All of these things suggest financial instability. Not all of these teams are the Bengals, who are looking to extract as much cash as possible from their team on an annual basis and run their team accordingly.
That’s evidence. If it’s not enough for you, that’s fine, but you’re not entitled to say that said evidence doesn’t exist.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions
This is at best anecdotal..
Wouldn’t it be easier to just open the books?
How many times have the Raiders moved? 3 or 4? The Vikings have been threatening to move for years.
These are owners that could not mange their capital expenditures..not a result of the CBA.
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
"We're losing money" isn't anecdotal.
And all the rest are common sense. You don’t buy it? Fine. But it seems more like you just want them to open the books regardless of whether you’re right or not. And once again, you’re arguing a point I never said I opposed or disagreed with.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Also...
… you’ve shifted the argument again from “there’s no evidence” to “the evidence is just anecdotal”.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions
haha..
ok, there is evidence..just not very good evidence…:)
I love wins. Wins are good for the soul.- Barry Alvarez Sep 25, 2005
That I can live with.
And I don’t blame people for being suspicious when the owners say they’re hurting but refuse to open the books. That’s fair.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I suspect the reason they don't want to open the books...
.. is because they don’t want people to know the insane amounts of cash the most profitable teams are making, regardless of how the rest of them are doing.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
opening books
I read an article that explained it like this… First opening the books is just mostly a negotiating power play. Open books give the players alot of power over the owners. Cuz say a FA is negotiating w/ 2 teams and he knows one is making money and one is losing money. Well if the players knows this info he can go to the team that is making and say.. “Look I know you can pay me more than the other team cuz your making money every year and the other team is losing.” That is something that can really screw the competitive balance.
Also go to Natl Football post and on Brandts archives theres an article on opening the books. Its basically a matter of opening MORE of the books than is necessary… There plenty of books to support the owners position! But the players are using it.. For reason mentioned above and to get public opinion on their side, IMO. It has little to do w/ actually getting more info, but more about a power play in negotiations!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
…and I agree with you. I will be as against the owners as anyone when it comes to their attempts to unlevel the playing field when it comes to the cap and profits! What we have now is a GREAT system and changing it will negatively affect owners profitability in ways they’ll never know until it happens.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Thats what happened w/ the last CBA...
They changed the way the salary cap was calculated! They used to use a percent of adjusted revenue, and switched to the last system of a percent of GROSS revenue! As a result, the players salaries and the salary cap increased dramatically! Leading to where we are w/ the owners wanting and needing to recoup some of the expenses in player salaries… And why the owners opted out of the CBA, to get a better system in place!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
The player revenues went from 51% of total revenue in 2005 to 52% in 2006
The new CBA went into effect in 2006. There wasn’t a dramatic difference in the current CBA when it came down to percentages.
Greinke: "It’s not about the guacamole itself. I just don’t want to let them win."
From everything I've read..
The ‘06 CBA called for players to recieve 60% of gross revenue, not from an adjusted revenue… It may have taken a couple years to get to 60% tho… I’m not sure! I’ll have to see if I can find it and check again.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Where did you get this data?
And do you have the most recent data under the CBA? Like ’08 and ’09?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I posted it in a separate thread
Here, where I link an AP article with the player revenue versus gross revenue numbers.
It doesn’t have 2008 data, but it does have 2009 data where the players got 50% of the total revenue. Granted, there is a gap in data for 2007 and 2008, but seeing as the average of the 2006 and 2009 percentages was the same as the 2005 percentage, it looks like there wasn’t a large shift in who got how much of the pie.
Greinke: "It’s not about the guacamole itself. I just don’t want to let them win."
By the way, I got some of the numbers in my Brewers example wrong.
When looking on line last night I found an article which speculated that the Brewers were worth in excess of 400 million right now. Forbes (a more reliable source) released an article today putting the Brewers value at 376 million.
I think the point still holds regardless, but I thought i’d acknowledge the error.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Mar 23, 2011 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Breaking News!!
NFL considering ending lockout by bringing in replacement owners.
Greinke: "It’s not about the guacamole itself. I just don’t want to let them win."
Gotta love the Onion
They’re about as informative as some things on ESPN these days. On SportsNation, which is already a joke thanks to Cowherd, they mentioned Goodell saying that they weren’t thinking about using replacement players in during the lockout. They didn’t however mention that they aren’t considering it because it would be illegal, since this is a lockout and not a strike.
Badgers Football: Big Ten Champs
Packers Football: SUPERBOWL CHAMPS!
What's next?
Badgers Basketball: National Champs?
Milwaukee Brewers: World Series Champs?
God, I love sports in the state of Wisconsin right now.
What is a pay cut?
Your whole article is based on a wierd definition of a pay cut. It is a reduction in pay,
not a reduction in some unusually defined percent.
Also the union does not want to negotiate expanded rosters, more games, more
franchises, etc which would spread the pot over more players.
The Packers won the Super Bowl because injuries forced them to replace the older
show me the money types with younger just give me a chance type players.
Risk works two ways. Up and Down.





















