This is Heresy, but...
by Curly Lambeau on Mar 31, 2011 2:25 PM CDT
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The argument is being made that now is the time to trade Matt Flynn, because his value is high and we're going to lose him soon in free agency. Therefore, the logic goes, we can either lose him sooner and get something for him or we can lose him later and get nothing for him. Between those choices, who wouldn't choose the former?
Valid point. But here's my counter-argument: If we're talking about the value of our quarterbacks and the amount we'd get in trade, then why wouldn't we trade
...wait for it...
(gasp!)
Here me out and listen to my point.
Strictly from a value-personnel standpoint, the team should really trade Rodgers and keep Flynn.
I offer into evidence exhibit A: McCarthy's QB school.
Our coach has made Rich Gannon and Jake Delhomme into Pro Bowl QBs. He's taken a 7th rounder in Flynn and turned him into a hot-commodity. Brett Favre's play improved dramatically after one year under him. Now he's got Rodgers practically walking on water so that everybody in the league is like "who is this man, that the wind and the waves obey him?" All indications are that McCarthy has done it before and could do it again. So, while it's hard to imagine anyone's value ever being higher than Rodgers currently is, it's reasonable to expect that Flynn's value, which is high right now, will only increase in the future as long as he stays with the McCarthy-coached Packers. So, if you think about it, it's Rodgers whose value is maxed out. Whereas trading Flynn right now would be selling low.
And can you imagine what we'd get in trade for Rodgers right now? For Flynn, we'd be very lucky to get a 2nd rounder. But Rodgers? What do you think, would we start the bidding at three 1st round picks? Do I hear a Ricky Williams "my draft for that guy" type of offer? While I never expected the Vikings to be this dumb again, Rodgers might tempt 'em to go for a Herschel Walker redux. Seriously, after it was reported that he was on the block, you'd have to wait for the offers to come in because it would take awhile for owners to revive their GMs who had passed out like fainting goats. I mean, it would be the greatest time in the world to buy stock in whatever company it is that makes smelling salts.
Now, am I saying we should trade Rodgers? Not on your life! He is simply not for sale. What I am saying is: you can get carried away on this whole "trade when the value's high" train of thought. It's the right idea, and it makes perfect sense, but you can also easily out-smart yourself and trade away somebody that you need. In the case of Rodgers, the "bird in the hand" is so rare that he's worth more than practically any number of birds in the bush. With Flynn, the bird in the hand is a year of quality back-up play (on the cheap, I might add), and what's in the bush is maybe a 3rd rounder. So, while the value isn't on the same scale as it was with Rodgers, still... the certainty of what we've got is worth enough that it would be silly to chase what we may or may not find in the bush. Bottom line: when you've got a winning hand, the thing to do is stand pat and play the cards you're dealt.
Sure, Flynn will probably eventually leave in FA, but that's the way it goes. That's the time when you count on McCarthy's QB school and train up the next Rich Gannon or the next Matt Flynn. But, in the meantime, let it ride. You don't have to break the bank everytime there's a few coins clinking around inside.
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sigh…should have seen something like this coming. I know you are exaggerating to make a point but honestly its the difference between stages of where a team is. If our team was depleted of talent and all we had was Rodgers hitting his peak and a pile of crap around him, then its a good move. In the Packers situation, it allows us to trade from a position of strength (having a pro bowl caliber QB and a very strong backup in a position where only one can play) and using that strength to improve in an area of weakness.
We can’t just assume that we are going to take the same team into next year and have the same results. On paper it sounds great but it just doesn’t pan out that way which is why there is such turnover in the playoffs. EVERYONE will be looking to stop us, we need to be better, faster, stronger, etc if we are going to have a chance to defend the title.
Sometimes you have to roll the dice. The safe move is just keep everyone you have an hope its enough…rolling the dice for some extra picks allows you more chances to improve though.
Just my feelings. I won’t cry if they don’t do it, but I am perfectly fine with trading Flynn. To your point, who says McCarthy won’t have another guy ready to jump in the saddle if Rodgers goes down. Heck Alex Smith will likely even be available and he’s already been in a the QB school! :-)
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
by TrevorR on Mar 31, 2011 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I am totally exaggerating.
I liked your zinger about Alex Smith. That’s a solid point. I could respond with how he only had one abbreviated year in MM’s QB school. Then again, Brian Brohm went through a couple years of it, and he never got it.
To me, that’s all the more reason to recognize that Flynn’s got more value than we’re likely to get for him. Finding his replacement might not be so easy. And, therefore, maybe one year of him is worth more than the 3rd rounder we’d get.
So, sure, there are times when you roll the dice. But there are also times when you don’t.
by Curly Lambeau on Mar 31, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Smith.
has actually never gone through McCarthy’s quarterback school.
Coach Mac conducts his QB school before the draft, so Smith’s first would have been in 2006 — and McCarthy signed on as the Pack’s coach on January 12.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
THE BEARS STILL SUCK!
True…though he did still have a LOT of time working with him though which was more of the point.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
There is a difference.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
THE BEARS STILL SUCK!
Also…
You talked about trading from an area of strength to improve an area of weakness. That’s reasonable, except that the QB position is the most important position on the field. A team has got to be strong there if they want to be successful.
So, again, you’ll get a 3rd rounder for Flynn. Realistically, what you can expect to get with that pick is a guy who will provide depth in the rotation at some position. That’s… par for the course. And that’s nice. But would you take depth at another position at the expense of having no depth at the most important position on the field?
…not to mention that we’ve already got 8 other picks in this draft to get the depth of which you speak.
by Curly Lambeau on Mar 31, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I understand what you are saying about needing a strong backup for such an important position. I think there are some stopgap QBs out there that we could grab though that would be able to be adequate backups like Flynn is. Seneca Wallace might be a good choice and he comes from Seattle originally. Matt Moore, Alex Smith, Billy Volek, maybe Drew Stanton or Tavaris Jackson haha. The first few I was serious about though. I think any of those three could step into the 2 spot quite nicely and be a filler until we feel Harrell is ready or we find another guy. So then we get to bring in a 3rd rounder or use that pick to move up for a guy we want even more and get some more playmakers on our D or OL.
In my plan, if we traded Flynn, we would pickup a key veteran QB that could be an adaquate backup for a worst case scenario. Heck if all goes bad, I hear that Jeff George still has it!
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
ick
What does it say about your list that I’m not entirely sure who is and is not a joke.
e.g. Billy Volek. Is that guy still around? It seems like he was good for about 5 minutes back in the 90s.
Honestly, if you could assure me that we’d get Tarvaris, I might green-light moving Flynn. The best part would be that, after a season or two in the Q-school, I have no doubt whatsoever that he’d actually turn into a very nice QB. That would be awesome. Because that would be us saying to the Vikings “see guys, the problem is not really so much your players as it is your ability to teach them what they’re supposed to be doing out there. Again, not so much a talent issue as it is a basic awareness of the game of football and how to succeed as an organization. …so, yeah. I’d say you guys should work on that.”
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 1, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I would prefer Alex Smith...
Want nothing to do w/ Jackson. I would rather give Smith the time in McCarthys QB school!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Billy Volek has been backing up Phillip Rivers…since he hasn’t gotten hurt, you haven’t heard from him. He’s still only 34 which is not old for a QB. Still many viable years for him.
Tavaris was one of those guys where I was kinda joking and kinda not joking. I think he’s a pretty nice backup option for a team and with McCarthy coaching him up he could become a very nice option for us if Rodgers went down. It would be funny to turn the tables on Minny too.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Except
That you also lose a draft pick if you sign a FA. When you sign a FA and lose a FA, the compensatory pick is lost! So instead of getting 3 or 4 for losing Jenkins as a FA, we get nothing or maybe a 7th instead! And if you have to trade for a QB, you lose that draft pick… If we keep Flynn we get him for another year as a quality backup and gain another compensatory pick when Flynn leaves as a FA…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Signing a backup QB will be much cheaper than paying Jenkins...
So the Packers still may get a compensatory pick. That is if compensatory picks are still allowed under the new CBA.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
might
Yeah you might still get the comp pick… But instead of a 3 or 4, it will be a 6 or 7… And thats IF you get one! Rather keep Flynn and make sure you get the good comp for Jenkins AND another one for Flynn! Then we get 2 picks instead of one, or maybe none.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Not getting a 3rd or 4th anyways...
and compensatory picks may not be allowed under the new CBA.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
I think most of the CBA will be the same!
It worked really well for both sides. No need to make drastic changes! It mostly just how to split the money thats the issue!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Oh and this WHOLE argument is based on us just losing one player and gaining one. We could make this move and still have lost a couple nice players and still get a nice comp. pick. I would never let a compensatory pick dictate if I do a move or not.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
And THIS right here is why relying on compensatory picks is a bad thing. So what you are saying is that rather than getting value for a guy now you’d rather risk maybe getting something nice later in a compensatory pick which could go away and can’t be traded. What happens if we need to make a move after we let flynn go, then suddenly we get nothing at all for letting him go. Herein lies the problem with the “wait and get a comp. pick for Flynn” argument.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Actually No
Mostly I want Flynn w/ the Packer more for his ability to help us win games if Rodgers goes down! After that, getting the comp pick, even if lower than what we could get in trade is a bonus! If Rodgers is out for say 3 games, Flynn keeps us in the playoff race, w/o Flynn we could easily miss the playoffs altogether! I would trade Flynn if we get a 2nd rd pick tho…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
okay…I respect that take.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I respect the compensatory pick angle more
At least he’s shown that teams will sign him. He hasn’t shown he can win a game yet.
13.
Exactly!
but people who want to keep Flynn seem to have forgotten that too. If you’re allowed to argue that Flynn is a great QB who is an indispensable backup for this team, then the other side should be able to point out that he’s never won a game.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
He has particular value to the Packers because of his experience here and the coaches’ familiarity with him.
It’s true that every argument cuts both ways, but I think it’s true that he’s largely an unknown commodity for everybody else and yet he’s also almost indispensable for us for this coming year.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Fixed that for you
I think it’s true that he’s largely an unknown commodity for everybody else and yet he’s also largely an unknown commodity for us for this coming year.
13.
by Wiedmann on Apr 5, 2011 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
No, we’ve got a pretty good feel at this point for how Flynn will do if forced into action. The team knows him, too.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions
…because everybody was figuring things out. Lots of QBs don’t win their first games.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm just saying he hasn't completely proven himself
I think the record is kind of pointless. Also, largely pointless is how he performed against the Patriots* 30th ranked pass defense (which he threw a pick 6 to).
He isn’t much more than an unknown commodity to us, though his familiarity with the system is a nice benefit (though not worth exchanging a 1st or 2nd for a 5th, imo). I won’t be angry if we don’t trade him, but I think it would benefit the Packers to do so.
13.
Flynn is totally a known commodity to the Pack!
Unless you don’t think practice is helpful to the coaches and FO in determining a players abilities!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Poppinga is also a known commodity...
It seems like every year, Poppinga remains on the team in a contributing role because the coaches are impressed by him in practice. And then he shows them why he shouldn’t get the PT that they’re giving him once game times start. Just an example of practice being different from games. Being a known commodity, whatever that means, isn’t worth exchanging a 2nd or 3rd for a 5th or 6th.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
Poppinga is on the roster for ST only.
When we played a 43 he had a position, now he’s ST only. Nevermind his alleged place on the depth chart. However now that we have better options in Zombo and Walden Poppinga is toast. I wouldn’t trade Flynn for anything less than a 2nd! He’s more valuable on the Packers than a 3rd or lower!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Okay, that's fine
Agreed on the Patriots defense. I had been looking forward to seeing Rodgers shred them, and was bummed when he couldn’t play that time.
And, personally, I wouldn’t really be that upset if we DID trade him. I just think it’s a bad idea, and I’m comfortable with how he’ll do if he does wind up having to play.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions
So, basically we agree on everything except for the value we can get in trade
But, we killed some time in this thread, so it wasn’t a total loss.
13.
No, I think we disagree on everything
But neither of us is in control of it, and we’re not going to jump off any bridges if things don’t go our way.
…and, yeah, we killed some time.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 6, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Ok now you're just disagreeing to disagree with his disagreements
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
No no no, go past this part. In fact never play this again!!
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 6, 2011 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
If you disagree with his disagreements....
he’ll disagree with your disagreeing of his disagreements. It will start an endless disagreement cycle…. and who knows what will happen then!?!?!
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cardinals lose the Super Bowl? Again?
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 6, 2011 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Shhh...
Don’t joke about such things! They will never make the Super Bowl again! There is no Kurt Warner!!!!
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 7, 2011 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
The only joke is the Arizona Cardinals.
13.
by Wiedmann on Apr 7, 2011 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
eh…I don’t really agree there. The coaches know what they have in him. Maybe you and I don’t but those guys are with him everyday and they have a pretty good feel for what they have in him. Its just like when Rodgers was in the same position. We really didn’t know for sure what we had in him, but the coaches did…they knew him well enough to know that we would be fine if we cast off our icon of a QB.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
That's fair.
Practice & film study are one thing, game play is another. I’m not saying he can’t be successful, but I feel it’s an unknown.
13.
Yeah its not a guarantee or anything but I think for the most part coaches know when a good guy is going to blossom. Correction, GOOD coaches do. There is always an element of risk though but the fact that the packers gave upon Brohm and never brought in a vet shows they felt pretty good about Flynn and what he could do. IMO
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
To say
a compensatory pick which … can’t be traded.
is overblowing things a bit.
Sure the comp pick can’t be traded, but it makes another pick, most likely in the same round, suddenly very tradable.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
THE BEARS STILL SUCK!
Pick up Alex Smith as a backup?
I like that move
I honestly think it would be a good move too. It was a double meaning when mentioned him cause it was both a zinger to Curly and MM (haha) and a serious thought I have regarding Smith.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I think he can be "fixed"...
just need a QB doctor….and McCarthy is like a brain surgeon in that regard!
Oh and needs more cowbell.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 1, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Smith backing up Rodgers... ?
…awkward!
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 1, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I like it too.
Not worth the 1st overall draft pick, but could be a solid backup and game manager for a good team.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
Why yes, trade arguably the best QB in the league
and weaken your team substantially.
I approve wholeheartedly!
With the 12th pick in the 2011 NFL Draft, the Minnesota Vikings select...
If you think I'm saying the Packers should trade Aaron Rodgers
Then you missed the point.
by Curly Lambeau on Mar 31, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we should trade ARod, bring back Favre.....
and see if we get the same reaction we got in ’08 when it was reversed!
by PhoenicianPakFan on Mar 31, 2011 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
You didn't read the article
Did you? Tsk tsk.
I put the team on my back!!!!!
by Packattack88 on Apr 1, 2011 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I did
Sarcasm just doesn’t translate on the interwebs…
With the 12th pick in the 2011 NFL Draft, the Minnesota Vikings select...
Here you go
@Why yes, trade arguably the best QB in the league
and weaken your team substantially.
I approve wholeheartedly!@
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
that didn't work
Trying to get the sarcasm font…
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
Well, it's not exactly sarcasm.
The people who are in favor of trading Flynn are all wrapped up in this idea that “he’sgotvaluehe’sgotvalue and it’sreallyhighrightnow and omigoshwegottatradehimbecasueofhisvalue” and I’m saying “just because he’s got value doesn’t mean you necessarily trade him.”
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 1, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
That's exactly what we are saying
Nothing like giving up a potential 2nd Round for a guy that may not play a single snap this next season.
Superbowl Champs Baby!!!!!
13 World Championships, soon to be 14 after next season...GUARANTEED!!!!!
Nuff said....
A) You’re not going to get a 2nd for him
B) He MAY not play a single snap.
(I’m not going to say anything more about B (as the Godfather said, “I’m a supersticious man…”), but back-up QBs are sometimes important.)
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 3, 2011 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions
How can you be so sure that we wouldn’t get a 2nd round pick for him? Did you read what I said Whitehurst was traded for below?
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 4, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, and every GM in the league saw how that one worked out. They’re not going to be lining up to repeat it.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
meh…it wasn’t THAT big of a deal. I think you are overdramatising it. We aren’t talking three firsts or something. A team took a chance on a guy they thought had the crap to make it as a starter and ONE year in it looks like they were wrong.
Heck Wolf made an even bigger risk on Favre, a guy who in his only work threw 4 passes, 2 of which were for INTs and the team was clearly unhappy with him. Wolf gave up MORE than what he could have drafted him for just the year before. When a guy sees talent they go after it. GMs take risks on QBs all the time because if they are right, they have secured their job for years, if they are wrong, well its hit and miss and that was one miss.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I don’t see how I dramatized anything, much less over-dramatized it. What I’m saying is that the Whitehurst deal is a negative example for GMs around the league, and it would give guys pause before repeating what pretty much everybody knows was a mistake. Maybe your perception was different than mine, but I clearly remember that that trade was roundly criticized when it happened. …and he’s done nothing for SEA since then to make people change their minds. As a matter of fact he’s flopped in his PT opportunities.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Difference is
The Flynn situation seems to be a lesser version of the Kolb, Schaub, and Cassel situations rather than the Whitehurst situation. I don’t remember any discussion of Whitehurst as a potential franchise QB before he was traded. I don’t think anyone other than Carroll really even wanted him. On the other hand, there has been talk by some very smart people that Flynn could have a long career in this league.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
Sure, I’d agree. I don’t think Whitehurst is actually a good comparison. I was only talking about him because others kept bringing him up. But, like you said, Carroll was pretty much bidding against himself for a total unknown. I stand by the point, though, that Whitehurst is a negative example in the Flynn trade discussion to the extent that it’s even relevant.
But I’m guessing Flynn is well below the Schaub or Cassel examples in terms of his reputation around the league. Cassel, especially, played practically an entire season. I don’t remember what the Pats got for him, but one would expect that we’d probably get less.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
a 2nd rounder seems fair to me...
Schaub brought 2 2nds and KC got Cassell on the cheap from NE. Seemed like a deal was in place between Pioli and Belicheck.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
That’s right… didn’t KC get Cassel for, like, a 4th rounder or something?
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
So a throw in over the hill LB
and Cassell for a high 2nd… Basically amounts to Cassell for a mid 2nd or so?!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Well...
Vrabel’s not chopped liver. I mean, he has some value there.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
The funny thing about that is...
He’s one of the plaintiffs in the anti-trust lawsuit against the NFL.
/NFL owners collective sarcasm, “Rrrrr-ight…”
Super Bowl XLV Champions, the Green Bay Packers!
Whats Vrabel done since leaving NE?
Not much that I can remember… Granted I don’t follow KC at all, but has he REALLY done anything?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
LOL
Yeah I heard that… Can I trade for him? I’m always lookin for a guy who can score me some beers!!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
He may not be much of use to you if he gets convicted
He can’t score you beers from 6 months to 3 years.
13.
A little ridiculous that's the penalty
Stealing from casinos in IN is a class D felony.
I hope he at least stole some good expensive beers, like Delirium.
“What are you in for?”
“I stole 3 Bud Lights.”
“You got a real pretty mouth.”
13.
Yeah, I remember the thought coming out that other teams were a little upset because they would’ve been willing to give more for him. So, that goes along with your “deal in place” point.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree on the face that flynn isn’t thought of as highly as those other two are. I think he’s probably somewhat in the middle of Whitehurst and those two. The NFL is actually aware of him, but he not thought of as an automatic franchise QB like Schaub and Cassel were.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
I don't think anyone thought of Schaub and Cassell
as automatic franchise QB’s. Potential franchise QB’s maybe, not automatic. Otherwise they would have gotten much more than 2nd’s for them.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Well Schaub also got the Falcons a swap of 1st round picks. Though, it was only from 10th overall to 8th overall.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 6, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Is Flynn thought of as alot less than a potential franchise QB?
He showed up big on a big stage… Monday nite, on the road, vs what was thought to be the best team in the NFL at the time!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
by Strohman on Apr 5, 2011 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
They got the 34th pick in the draft and Mike Vrabel for him.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
No, Vrabel & Cassel for 34th overall, not 34th overall & Vrabel for Cassel.
I don’t think Vrabel had a whole lot to do with the deal, and either way it felt like an insider deal rather than market value.
13.
Like I said yesterday...
There was a deal in place between Pioli and Belicheck! I think that deal was in place as soon as Pioli started interviewing w/ other teams… In order to help Pioli succeed!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I agree....
but it seems so weird. I know they worked together and may have been friends, but for Belichick to do something so “buddy-buddy” in the same conference is just so unlike him, even for a friend. I think there was something added in that we don’t know about.
My theory? Pioli actually included plans for a new Belichick Deathstar in the deal.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions
My point is that you are making that trade appear bigger than reality. It was a minor trade of a guy. They took a chance on him and its not panning out. That happens all the time. Its not the kind of trade where GMs across the league are on notice about.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
And how did it work out? Do we really know yet? He really only played in Seattle’s last game of the season which was a must win, and they did win. I think they were perfectly content with letting Hassleback start last season, while having Whitehurst sit and learn behind him with the hopes that he’d be ready this coming season.
Another comparison would be Schaub to the Texans. For him, the Texans swapped 1st round picks in 2007 with the Falcons AND gave then TWO second round picks. All after he had only started two games, and won neither of them. Oh, and his stats in his three seasons prior to being traded were 1,033 yards with 6 TDs to 6 INTs.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2807051
QB’s are hard to find. Period. If a GM sees one that MAY be capable of becoming a good starting QB in the league, he’s going to give something up for him, and it’s going to be at a hefty price. I think it’s extremely unrealistic to dismiss the idea of getting a 2nd round pick for him based on similar situations that have played out in the past.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 5, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Schaub had seen a lot of action for a couple seasons as Vick’s back-up in ATL. He was much more of a known commodity.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
That's true.
Schaub was unspectacular, but solid. And he had a lot more playing time than one would expect, probably because Vick simply couldn’t stay healthy over the long haul.
In the end, Schaub was an AMAZING long-term investment.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 5, 2011 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with that but he hadn’t seen that much more time then Flynn has. Probably two or three games more if you add the one more game started, and the games he came in for Vick (whether for injury or garbage time). He still had some pretty mediocre stats — less then 50% completion rating and a TD to INT ratio of 6 to 6 like I pointed out above. He didn’t exactly light the world on fire or anything, and still carried a hefty price tag.
The ultimate point I’m trying to make is that teams will overpay for potential franchise QB’s just because of how important the position is.
I understand Flynn has value with us as a backup. But he also is only under contract for one more season with us. Yes, we’d probably receive a compensatory pick for him but it likely wouldn’t be more then a 5th or 6th rounder. I also understand that we don’t need anymore draft picks but it doesn’t hurt to get more either. If we were to receive a 2nd or 3rd for him, it’d likely be earlier in either round and could potentially be used in us moving up into the draft to get another impact player. Or it could be used on a guy like Brian Brohm or Pat Lee, like you pointed out elsewhere in this thread.
Either way, it could potentially be a pretty valuable resource to Thompson and I like to think that he could make the most out of it.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 5, 2011 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly. Whitehurst was a no one and he fetched a swap in 2nds and a 3rd…Flynn is better known than he is and had actually done something so I don’t see why people wouldn’t think he’d be worth at least that.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Yeah, that’s my point. Hell, even Sage Rosenfels netted a 4th round pick when the Vikingd acquired him. I just don’t think there’s any way in hell, based on past situations, that we wouldn’t get at the very least a high 3rd round pick for Flynn.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 6, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
yup…just like Mannings and Favre’s for all those years. Look who the Colts have had backing up Manning all these years…complete stooges. Heck they even had a QB from UW backing him up for a few years and we know the track record of UW qbs in the pros. Ultimately we have to keep in mind that if Rodgers goes down, the season is likely lost no matter who is behind him.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
See I disagree w/ that!
If Rodgers is lost for the season then yeah our season is lost. But if he misses 3 games that could cost us a playoff shot when he gets back… With Flynn still on the team, we have a good chance, IMO, to still make the playoffs!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
But could we have that chance with one of a number of FA QBs as well? I think our chances are pretty good there too.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
That depends...
Maybe, maybe not… At least w/ Flynn we know what he can and can’t do and can more easily adjust the game plan for him. And then we get back into losing out on compensatory picks. All in all, I just like knowing that we have Flynn behind Rodgers for another SB run! To me that kinda security is worth at least a 2nd, otherwise its just not worth the risk to me!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I agree with what you’re saying but I think we could find a veteran guy who could keep us in the hunt too if that situation did happen to play out (Rodgers gets hurt for a few games).
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 5, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You mean the track record of illustrious players such as Randy Wright?
Sorgi’s decent. Probably could pitch in a game if Eli was injured, but I wouldn’t want to risk him over a season.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 5, 2011 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah trade him!
wait, what just happened?
WE HAVE AN INFILTRATOR!
/sounds alarm
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 1, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
oops pressed the wrong button
Even if we don’t trade Flynn and he walks we more than likey will recieve some decent compensation as we have Kampman. I have a feeling on the open market a player like Flynn would have enough interest that he will recieve a large contract. This all assumes the new CBA will resemble the last. Since their is no player movement we will have this info before we have to consider moving him.
With 15 players coming off IR and 9 draft choices I’d prefer future draft choices as we will have more than enough quality players being added next year.
I hadn't thought of that.
Excellent point. Even if we were to get, say, a 5th round compensatory for him when he left in FA, that makes a big difference in this discussion.
That changes the question from
“Would you trade a year of Flynn for a 3rd round pick?”
to
“Would you trade a year of Flynn to move up from the 5th round to the 3rd round?”
by Curly Lambeau on Mar 31, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I've said that before too...
Quit a bit actually! If we keep Flynn and he leaves in FA we still get a compensatory pick for him! May not be as high, but if you consider the value of him remaining as Rodgers backup it makes it more palatable to hold onto him!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I think we would get a 4th
With a modest contract and decent production, I think he would net us a fourth. So you have to weigh that fourth in two years verses a potential draft pick now / next year. I would start considering offers around a mid second round personally.
This lockout killed the QB school that McCarthy runs though, so it might not be worth it. Flynn knows the system and does not need as much work as say Harrell.
as much work..
As Harrell or a rookie!! Mid 2nd is my thought as well, as I stated later. Gotta get a premium draft pick for him. Otherwise I am inclined to keep him!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
We got a 4th for Kampman...
Flynn will not be worth the same as Kampman.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
Agreed. I don’t think we’d get anything more then a 6th for him.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Mar 31, 2011 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions
You sure?
It’s all in what a desperate team is willing to pay.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
Fighting the Battle of Who Could Care Less since 12/29/09
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Mar 31, 2011 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Kampman was paid a 4yr 26mil deal
Do you really think a team would pay more than that for an unproven QB who’s started one game?
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
More than that?
Unlikely, but I expect Flynn would get something around that. Kampman was also just coming off an ACL injury.
Whitehurst got a 2 year 8 million dollar deal. Let’s not forget the rep that McCarthy has around the league for developing QB’s. That’s gonna inflate his value too, as will all the teams needing QB’s.
So that's 4 mil a yr for Whitehurst.
Flynn may get a little help from MM’s rep, but I don’t think he’s getting nearly twice that per year without a larger body of work…
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
What did Whitehurst do
Flynn doesn’t have a great body of work, but it is still IMO quite a bit more than Whitehurst. I think there’s a team or 2 out there that will pay quite a suprising sum to see if he’s the real deal
Flynn's started one game?
I’m just saying they’re not going to pay more than 7 mil per yr (what Kampman got) for a QB who’s started one game.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
Well that IS one more game than Whitehurst ever started....
though teams may have learned from that. He didn’t do so hot for Seattle, though I think they need to give him a little time.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 2, 2011 3:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, but he was only paid 2 years for $8 million. Not anywhere near 4 years for $26 million.
And for fun, lets just say a team does pay him around the latter. What do we get, a 4th rounder, or basically a 5th rounder?
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 5, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Fine, but the question is: is GETTING the difference between a #5 and a #3 worth GIVING UP a year of a good back-up QB?
I refuse to say “the i word” in connection with anybody, but let’s just say that even 1 year of having a guy with 3 years experience in our system is worth a certian amount. And I think it’s more than the value of moving a pick up a couple rounds.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions
yes
because we can sign a veteran to manage a couple games in case Rodgers would get hurt.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
by Kuhl on Apr 5, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Okay, well, we disagree then.
Any replacement would be nothing more than a game-manager this year, but I think Flynn could be more than that. How much more? I don’t know for sure. But to me it’s worth the difference between “drafting kid X who probably won’t make the team” and “drafting kid Y who’s 40 time is a hundredth of a second faster than kid X, but who nevertheless will probably not make the team.”
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
“Both will make the team”?
Okay…
But with one we still have a good backup QB.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, because you have no idea who the back-up would be. You guys have put forth lists of possible guys, but you’d still have to acquire them somehow. …hey, I know! We could trade for one!
…oh, wait…
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Free Agents on the market
Mark Bulger
Kerry Collins
Alex Smith
Shaun Hill
Dennis Dixon
Tavaris Jackson
Everyone of these guys has the potential to be more than just a game manager. If this was week 5 in the season and this discussion was happening and we were picking from mid season options, then yes I agree, but the FA pool is ripe with nice backup options who have great starting experience.
Others include Matt Moore, Tyler Thigpen, Kellen Clemons, Billy Volek
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
FA QB's
Bulger will be in high demand as a starter, he won’t come to GB as a backup.
Collins is what 38 now.
Smith I would be OK with… but would he be able to win?
Hill, I don’t think given Staffords injuries Detroit lets him leave.
Dixon? please… Proven he can’t be an effective accurate passer.
Jackson would be my #2 on the list, but not interested. He’s never proven to be an effective QB.
Moore is kinda interesting.
Just my thoughts on them…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Bulger...
just like his last deal right?
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Ravens-strike-deal-with-Marc-Bulger.html
His days of starting are done I think. Maybe someone gives him a shot but he’s what 34 and his last time on the field he didn’t look like he used to. He looked okay but not put the team on your shoulders starter material.
Again…we are talking about backups here so age really doesn’t matter all that much. Just need a guy for a year or two. I am with you though, Smith, Jackson, Bulger, and maybe Moore are the ones on the list that are the most appealing.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I know AZ is really interested in Bulger...
Even last year they were. But he didn’t become available until late when the Cards and other interested teams had already made decisions and signed other QB’s! AZ would love to get him right now as a bridge starter… He’s been talked about as a possible starter here since the day Warner retired! I would imagine a few other QB needy teams would be interested in him too.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
He is Fitz' top FA as far as QBs go.
The big question is whether he really wants to keep playing. He has been very lukewarm on continuing his NFL career, but given the right circumstance, I’m sure he would sign on.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
He’s been talked about as a possible starter here
You live in the Valley?
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah... live in Scottsdale.
Just off Scott rd and Thomas. We’ve had this conversation before. LOL
Big thing w/ Bulger isn’t whether he wants to play, he does. But would prefer to be near St L. His wife is an eye Dr and has her own practice I guess.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Oh I didn't hear that...
I usually have Gumbo and Ass on the radio, and they were talking about his desire to play.
I really didn’t know you lived in the area. Well that makes more sense on our Cards talks then.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions
where do you watch games?
Used to go to Casey Jones, but don’t live in N. Phx anymore. Go to Goldies, but might be looking for a new sportsbar to catch Packer games.
I like Bickley and MJ… Alot more football talk usually.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I like them better too.....
overall I like the national Fox lineup with Toney Bruno, and JT the Brick or Ben Mahler, but I listen to D-Backs games on 620 so thats whta I usually have on these days.
I usually work during the Packers games to tell you the truth, so I don’t get out to sports bars. Otherwise I don’t get the games except on some of the online channels like adht.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions
If you ever have a Sunday off
Or a Mon Nite game let me know. Maybe meet up for a beer to watch.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Yeah I actually live in the same area...
between McDowell and Van Buren on 52nd.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Dixon would be interesting.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 6, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Matt Moore and Tyler Thigpen would interest me, but I’m not as comfortable with any of them as I am with Flynn.
…and I’d want to sign whoever the replacement was going to be before any trade.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 6, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
This I agree with
…and I’d want to sign whoever the replacement was going to be before any trade.
13.
No..
Keep Flynn he is well respected and is a good leader! He’s alot more valuable to us than moving from a 5th round pick to a 3rd, IMO!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Yes, but...
…that’s not my evaluation of the situation. I think we’d get a 4th as a compensatory. And I think we’d get a 3rd in trade. A year of Flynn is worth more than that.
If someone offers a 2nd… maybe, I don’t know. Before I wrote this post and read the discussion in the comments, I probably would’ve said no. I’ve said yes in other comments, and the truth is that I’m on the fence. You can get a good player with a #4, and you can get crap with a #2 (no pun intended, and I hope my joke doesn’t offend Trevor’s delicate sensibilities). My point is that you roll the dice with the draft , whereas you know what you’ve got with Flynn on the roster. …but I admit that an offer of a 2nd would be tempting. …even moreso if you were sitting there looking at a player you wanted and wanted to use Flynn to trade up and get him. But, in the abstract, I think I’d still personally say no. You can get Chad Clifton in the 2nd round, but you can also wind up with Brian Brohm (whereas you can wait till the 7th and just get Flynn). Again, “Who knows” is my point.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 6, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
What we do know...
Is what we have with Flynn on the team! A leader who showed on a big stage, who knows the offense and system cold!! Gotta get a premium pick if we’re gonna move Flynn!!! Mid 2nd or higher!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
It was a pretty big stage...
its not like it was at Lambeau. I know the Pats defense wasn’t the top ranked D in the NFL or anything, but he did make his first start at Gillette, to a hostile fan base, in the winter, knowing they hadn’t lost there in like 1739.4 games in a row.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure, and you can’t trade it. I understand that. The point is that it’s not nothin. We’re not going to be sitting in the cold November rain crying into our beer thinking of what might have been if Flynn leaves in FA someday.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 6, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Its basically a 4th/5th hybred…there are you both happy now? :-)
my new role as stroh/wied peacekeeper
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I had made my point
And could have responded alot earlier, if I was inclined. I don’t need a peacekeeper, but thanx on Wieds behalf… LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I prefer Peacemaker...
at 10 paces.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 6, 2011 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
The two values are tied together
If Flynn would get a lot in trade, then he’d sign for a lot in FA too. If he’d only get a small contract someday, then nobody’d give us even a mid-level pick right now. In both scenarios, the issue is not “is Flynn good” but rather “is Flynn valued by other teams.”
So the point remains the same in regards to the decision we’re talking about. IF you’d be able to trade him for a high pick, then you could also wait and get a relatively high compensatory pick if and when he were to leave in FA.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
If Flynn was worth 7 mil to a team,
I feel like they would be willing to trade much more than the 3rd-4th that we think we could get. Whitehurst was traded for a third. So either Flynn is worth much more than that in a trade(because you think he’ll be paid double what Whitehurst was) or Flynn will get a similar contract to Whitehurst.
The highest compensatory pick given to any team this year was a 3rd round pick to Carolina. If we could get that than fine, just sit on Flynn. I don’t think we will. My estimate is we get a 5th or 6th rounder for him.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
Okay, so...
The question (according to your estimation of the reality of the situation) then becomes:
Would you trade a year of Flynn to move a draft pick up from the 6th to the 4th round?
…because you’re getting a draft pick either way. In one scenario, you get the 4th rounder, but you give up a year of having an experienced back-up. In the other, you “only” get a 6th, but you get not only a year of Flynn, but also a year to train his replacement.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
In this circumstance I’d go with the latter but I think Flynn would net more then a 4th rounder. I think he could legitimately get a 2nd rounder, and at the lowest a 3rd rounder.
Do you think it’d be worth while to trade him if we could get a 2nd or 3rd round pick?
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 2, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Again, the two values are tied together.
If we can get a 3rd for him in trade, then that means that he’s highly valued. …in which case he’d probably wind up having teams fight over him in FA, which would net him a nice contract, and consequently get us a 4th round compensatory.
So, would you trade him to move a pick up from the 4th to the 3rd?
…I think you’re dreaming with the 2nd rounder in trade. If we can get that from a team, then I think even I’d go for it.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
…honestly, I think even getting a 3rd-rounder is wishful thinking.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Any number of things could happen which would prevent us getting a compensatory pick in the 4th
I think a 3rd is as low of an offer as we would get for him, not wishful thinking. Also, it’s not just a 4th for a 3rd (which I think is in and of itself a flawed way to look at it), it’s a 3rd in 2011 or 2012 for a 4th in 2013.
13.
by Wiedmann on Apr 2, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
…and, anyway, even 2nd round picks can easily turn into Pat Lee.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions
The Steelers weren't throwing at Lee in the SB...
…they were throwing at Jarrett Bush. The only reason he hasn’t been cut is because he’s our 4th best CB.
13.
Way to phrase that...
there is a MASSIVE dropoff from Williams to the 3rd CB.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
Fighting the Battle of Who Could Care Less since 12/29/09
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 2, 2011 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions
no disagreements with that
That’s why he’s on the roster, and not because of his coverage skills, which is what I was pointing out.
13.
Yep, that’s pretty telling if you ask me. Lee actually appeared to play pretty well too me.
Not that he’s going to all of the sudden explode onto the scene next season but I think he’s a capable dime back.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 2, 2011 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Lee
Even tho Lee played well, we still had to change from man to zone in the 2nd half of the SB to allow Lee and Bush to be successful. Need to replace Lee and maybe Underwood too. Unless they make Underwood the backup to Collins!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Underwood likely won't survive to the next 53
due to his legal troubles/injuries/inadequate play.
Lee has way more justification to being on the roster.
13.
Play maybe...
But I doubt the Packers dump Underwood for getting raked over the coals by a couple of hookers! Neither Lee, nor Underwood is safe. Both have to get alot better to stick around. Personally, I give Underwood a better chance cuz he might be able to play both CB and S…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
No, but it's not helping him make the team.
I think we have adequate depth at S; I don’t think it will be too much of a factor.
13.
Who's the #4 safety?
I don’t see Smith back, nor Bigby… Both are far better at SS, than FS. Peprah can play both, but w/ Collins, Peprah and Burnett that still leaves room for another safety! And I don’t see them drafting one either.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Underwood played S in college.
Bush did not… And I thought you wanted no part of Bush on the field under ANY circumstances!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Bush worked at S in the NFL!!!!!!
Capers said Jarrett Bush would train again this week as a safety instead of his normal cornerback position and probably will compete with Charlie Peprah, who gave up two big plays that accounted for 100 yards.
13.
I know he played S some in the NFL
After he failed at CB! Bush was a CB in college, thats what I was saying… If you weren’t so argumentative you might realize it.. As usual its impossible to have a civilized conversation w/o you getting all bent out of shape! Have fun w/ arguing w/ yourself!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
See, this where I disagree. I think we really could net a 2nd round pick for him. And the reason I think that is because of what San Diego was able to get for Charlie Whitehurst.
He was their third string QB, and didn’t have any starts prior to being traded. Yet, the Seahawks swapped their 2nd round pick with the Chargers (their 40th pick for the Chargers 60th pick) and also gave the Chargers a 3rd round pick.
I think it’s realistic to think that Flynn could get the same for us, and probably more because of what he showed in his start, and McCarthy’s rep for developing QB’s.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 2, 2011 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Seattle way overpaid
Was there really that much demand that they had to give up so much? But still, I think Flynn will get more than that value, and it won’t be overpaying.
13.
Maybe they did but the point is the same. The value has been set and Flynn is even higher regarded and I know there are teams with him on their radar from what I’ve read. If a team misses out on their guy in the draft I guarantee that TT’s phone is ringing.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Yeah, they probably did but that’s the point. Lately, teams have almost always overpaid in trades for QB’s who they believe will become solid starters.
Was Schaub worth a 1st round swap plus two second round picks? He’s been pretty good but I’d say no.
A team will almost undoubtedly overpay for Flynn, especially when you look around the league and see all the teams that are in desperate need of a QB.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 5, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the thing people forget is that flynn is MUCH less risky for a team than drafting a QB. So they could spend a first on a 50/50 shot and pay him big money or they could trade a second for a QB who’s been trained and is somewhat proven and still draft another important position with their first.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I've been a huge supporter of keeping Flynn unless the compensation is ridiculously generous
But it has more to do with the situation our roster is in. I would probably be for a trade like was for Hasselbeck, Brunell, Brooks and there are others that worked great for us. I was thrilled with each of those trades. I just think our situation is so much different now then those seasons. We have a championship team that could be better and the QB is the one position you have to be great at. If Rogers went down for a few games I’m confident in Flynn to carry us for a few games.
But the biggest reason I wouldn’t want to trade him is because I can’t think of anytime where a Packer roster looked the way it did at the end of the season. We had a solid 53 man roster at the end of the season. We had 15 players on IR from memory there are as many as 8 I think will be on next years team, more likey 7 because I don’t think Barnett will be back, they are Neal, newhouse, Jones, Grant, Finley, Chillar, and Finley. I think Tauscher will retire he didn’t look good before injury,Poppinga no,Harrell ( I’ve been a hopeful supporter but don’t trust him to go on a 53 man roster) Havner I liked him but no Anthony Smith won’t be there.
That’s 8 potential players making the roster. Now try to get rid of 8 Love Jenkins but to expensive sadly, Lee goneprobably the back from Atlanta, I think Bigby’s stay is gone, either Pat Lee or Underwood gone but I believe that to be because of a draft choice which I haven’t talked about yet. Maybe they will let we’ll pick up a WR and let Jones walk but that would be a draft choice taking his position. Walden, Zombo, one of these guys. That’s 6-7 guys that may be replaced I’m sur I can think of 1 or 2 more
7-8 guys making the team from IR 7-8 leaving for various reasons and some of those guys leaving I’d love backJenkins, Barnett, Jones, Bigby if healthy. Most years most draft choices make our team and 1 or 2 free agents. We have 9 draft choices and Ted is going to bring in free agents. I know there are injuries that will help these numbers but unless it is a real high draft choice he may not even make our team. This is the main reason I would keep Flynn.
Sum things up our depth is going to be unbelievably good and I feel keeping Flynn could be the difference in making a SB run or not
Exactly.
Why the urgency to trade for more picks when it’s already pretty much a certainty that we’ll have to cut some good guys as it is? I mean, at that point we’re essentially drafting for other teams.
Nothing about this idea makes sense.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes and if anything I would prefer a future pick
I don’t see the big need now and instead of this years 2nd teams often give next years 1st and that can turn into great value
The CBA will not be resolved by the time of the 2011 draft
The proposed Flynn trade would happen after the draft but before the beginning of the season.
13.
More picks
gives TT the flexibility to move up in a draft if needed. Having an extra 3rd or 4th round pick would minimize the impact of the lost picks.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
We almost get back to back picks in the 4th round.
The 32nd pick, and the compensatory 34th pick of the 4th round.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 3, 2011 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah…that is a good point too. That doesn’t mean that the pick you get for him isn’t used to trade up though or that the compensation is a we give up a 3rd for your 2nd kinda thing either.
i guess at this point I am a skeptic that the CBA will be done before the draft so I think that anything we’d be getting would be in the 2012 draft anyway and who knows what our needs are then
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I would do that
Plus, I’m not convinced that compensatory picks will be around in the same form in the next CBA.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
You're not convinced there'll be compensatory picks?
Look, in order for something to be changed in the new CBA, it will first have to be disliked by somebody, right? In other words, the things people want changed will be changed. Everything else will stay the same.
Have you ever heard of anyone who doesn’t like compensatory system? I mean, have you heard one person say a single bad thing about it?
Y’know, why should I have to “convince” you that it will be there?
Anyway, this whole issue is a case of the forrest for the trees. Flynn’s a good player at the most important position. Therefore we should keep him. Period.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions
This has been discussed on this site in the past.
There is uncertainty about whether or not they will exist in their current form in the next CBA.
As to your argument for keeping Flynn: Flynn is a good player at a position that only allows ONE player on the field. We have Rodgers, any old backup QB that we could sign could hold a clip board and be an occasional emergency game manager if needed.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
Seems to me we one a Super Bowl because of depth
Everyone in the league marveled at the quality of our backups. I don’t care what site you went to they all marveled at our depth. Only when one player went down another stepped in and we didn’t miss a beat. You seem to think any one who can hold a clip board should be our back up at the games most important position. Seems to go against everything the Packers have built. This position makes no sense to me.
Yes, and it wasn't because we had depth at the QB position.
Flynn did nothing to help us win a SB. The team was 0-2 in the two games he had meaningful playing time in.
13.
by Wiedmann on Apr 2, 2011 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's called a learning curve
Flynn has been in games. He’s learned how to lead the team, and the team has learned to follow his lead. Yeah, they didn’t win those games, because it takes time to develop.
Now you want to start over with a new guy just so you can to add a draft pick who probably won’t survive training camp.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions
No, I'd bring in a veteran backup if we traded Flynn
We already have a developmental QB in Harrell.
13.
by Wiedmann on Apr 2, 2011 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
…and btw, what was Rodgers’ record in the first games he had meaningful playing time in?
There are reasons other than the quality of the QB why a team might lose games.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 2, 2011 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe true...
But kinda hard to deny that he showed very well against NE. Their pass D may have not ranked high for the season, but it improved alot towards the end of the year.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
What he did to the 30th ranked pass defense doesn't really impress me
It was better than what I expected, however.
13.
Flynn threw 3 TD passes
but also was sacked 5 times and threw a pick six.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
Fighting the Battle of Who Could Care Less since 12/29/09
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 2, 2011 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, that pick was pretty brutal. Though, it did look like Jones quit on his route too. I think it was a miscommunication between them.
I don’t think the sacks are much of a concern. Awareness in the pocket is typically something that improves as you play more and more.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Apr 2, 2011 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't see it!
THere wasn’t much wrong w/ the CBA except that the owners claimed the overall money wasn’t working! Everything else was fine by BOTH parties as far as ANYONE else had to say. The only thing preventing a new CBA being done is the split of overall money… THat and De. Smith wanting to litigate the matter! Smith is a litigation lawyer after all… Why do think the players hired him?!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
AND its an END of the third pick too. We could get a third from ANY team and it would be a better more valuable pick than the best compensatory pick out there…plus as Stroh pointed out, losing a key guy and banking on a comp pick isn’t a good move either as you may not get it if you make a trade or pick up a FA at any position.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
This assumes compensatory picks are still around in the new CBA. Who knows what will happen with all this stuff.
Also It would be from the end of the 5th to basically near the front of the third (since most teams that need a QB are not great teams). but yeah, it does change the equation but I still have no problem doing it. I think we can fill the Flynn hole with a number of players and be just fine with the players and coaches we have around them.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
How 'bout if somebody offered us a warm pack of peanuts?
A neon St. Paulie Girl sign for the concession stand in section 72?
Oo, oo!! I know! Real urinals for all the restrooms at Lambeau (not just the ones in the Atrium) so we didn’t have to use those stupid troughs anymore?
…just trying to get a base-line on how little you’d take for him.
Seriously, though, I think you’ve radically underestimated how important it is to have a back-up whose actually prepared. …somebody call Blair Keil. Where is that guy? He can tell us about this. Can’t find him? How about Dilweg? (I remember in 1990 a buddy of mine made a t-shirt that said on the front “upon further review…” and then on the back “Dilweg still sucks.”)
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 1, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
If somebody personally offered me $10 for him......I'd let him go!
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 1, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
why do you just discard the fact that there are people out there who could fill his backup role just fine. I have a list of players I’d be just fine with having in his spot that we could sign right now if the CBA was in place. You like to throw around this “the world will end if FLynn isn’t the backup QB” attitude and then you don’t even regard the fact that other players are out there that will be FA.
I guess I don’t regard him too much because ultimately if Rodgers is gone for anything more than a game or two we are toast anyway just like the Colts would be if Manning went down. If our goal is to win a SB, it ain’t happening with Flynn out there IMO.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
The world won't end, but...
I think Flynn’s 3 years of experience in our system make him a better option than anybody you could bring in.
There. That’s why I want to keep him. Now you tell me why you see this huge crisis that makes it so that we’ve GOT to trade Flynn away. I mean, we need a quality back-up more than we need another pick right now.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Are you on estrogen today man? You seem to be trying to drum up drama and controversy on here with your posts. Where did I say anything about there being some huge crisis…stating an opinion dude…just like you are. Get a grip.
I want to trade him to have a guaranteed pick in our pocket that we can use to move up and pick up a stud OLB or another anchor for our line. Having the extra pick allows us to trade it without losing our precious current pick which makes it even more likely that TT will move up to go after HIS guy. I think Flynn is good but he’s dispensable and replaceable. I think we’d be fine with one of a number of FAs that could come in and adequately fill Flynn’s shoes and even win a few games with Flynn hasn’t shown he can do yet. I like Flynn, I think he has a nice future, its just not here so I don’t see the big drama of why wouldn’t take fair value for him to improve the team elsewhere.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Like Rocky said to the dock-worker he was collecting from: “look, I ain’t emotionally involved.” You’re reading a tone into my posts that isn’t there. …and I don’t appreciate your tone, btw, but I’ve been down the road of thowing around personal attacks on the internet, and it’s not worth it, so I’ll leave it alone.
The reason I’m asking about the “crisis” is because: in order for a team to shoot the moon with a trade, there should be some problem they’re trying to fix. Otherwise, you make a calculated estimate of the value of what you’re giving up versus what you’re getting. So, I ask again, where’s the crisis you think you’re addressing? Everything’s fine. We’ve got good starters everywhere. We’ve got outstanding depth, and 8 draft picks this year to further increase that depth. Why do we need to reach with a trade for Flynn. I say “reach” because guys on here are talking about pushing him out the door to move up 2 rounds. That’s an opinion, but it’s a stupid one.
So, if somebody offers us a 2nd round (which I don’t think will happen), then maybe you think about it. But, otherwise, we’ve got a good back-up. Why do you so anxious to mess with that?
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
This is essentially my position
There really is no compelling reason to me to trade Flynn unless someone offers a deal that is too good to pass up. I’m all in favor of planning for the future, but it seems to me that our top priority should be putting the team in the best position to win the Super Bowl next year. I think Flynn as the back up puts us in the best position for next year. After that, who knows? Maybe Harrell can move up to the back up role with one more year under his belt.
"Believe me Delmar, woman is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man."
Yeah, I have no problem with that position
I think we’re just as fine with a veteran QB managing games as we are with Flynn (if not better).
13.
The tone was there…please its all over in your posts.
There. That’s why I want to keep him. Now you tell me why you see this huge crisis that makes it so that we’ve GOT to trade Flynn away.
Oo, oo!! I know! Real urinals for all the restrooms at Lambeau (not just the ones in the Atrium) so we didn’t have to use those stupid troughs anymore?
…just trying to get a base-line on how little you’d take for him.
I could list more of them but I have to actually get some work done.
So you think we are set for next year? Nothing could be improved huh? We don’t need help on the Oline or a better OLB or depth at corner or another guy to plug in on the d line or even another WR? I think you are overconfident then. More draftpicks allows us to more easily trade up to go after the guys TT wants and when TT wants a guy and goes after him GREAT things happen, right Clay?
There is my reason.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
The use of the word crisis I’ve explained. The urinals thing was a joke. …and a good one, I might add. I said that in response to you saying that you’d give Flynn to move up from a 5th to a 3rd. That, to me, is ridiculous. It’s a warm bag of peanuts.
As for the rest of it that’s “all over” my posts… Stop being so sensitive. I disagree with you and I’m trying to be convincing. It’s not being nasty, and it’s certainly not directed at you.
I’d say more, but I know you have a lot of work to do and I don’t want to hold you up. …mmm-buh-bye.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 6, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
…oh and the draft pick is likely going to be in 2012 since the CBA probably won’t be done for the draft so there won’t be trades then. We’ll have all sorts of different needs then. Who knows where we finish after this season.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Who knows where we finish after this season.
Uh, it’s pretty obvious: Indianapolis.
13.
by Wiedmann on Apr 6, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
not if we lose half our team to inj...
nevermind.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
PESSIMIST!
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 6, 2011 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm glad you're not suggesting we trade Rodgers.
Because only a f**king idiot would do so. Fun to play “what if,” though.
Super Bowl XLV Champions, the Green Bay Packers!
I think we should trade Rodgers.... err, wait what?
by PhoenicianPakFan on Mar 31, 2011 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions
So, what you're trying to say is...
You’ve become a Viking fan. :P
Super Bowl XLV Champions, the Green Bay Packers!
That's not funny. You shouldn't joke about things like that.....
some people really are Vikings fans….
=)
by PhoenicianPakFan on Mar 31, 2011 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey guys, this's a family site...
Let’s watch calling each other the “V” word, huh?
Just kidding.
Actually, though, my high-school football team was called “the Vikings” …with the same logo and everything. Our colors were blue & white, but still… this was a high-school in Wisconsin!
And the strangest thing is that we never even thought about it. I never heard anybody even mention it, and I can honestly say it never occured to me that we had the same name and logo as the Minnesota Vikings.
I feel kinda’ dirty admitting this. Like, is there a support group I should be going to for this or something.
“Hey guys.”
“Hey Curly.”
“So, uh, my high-school mascot was (sob) the… I can’t say it.”
“It’s okay, man, let it out. This is a safe space.”
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 1, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, man... I am so sorry.
It’s okay… you can cry. Just let it out… :P
Super Bowl XLV Champions, the Green Bay Packers!
Completely different situations...
ARod is a PROVEN player who is one of the best players at his position in the game.
On the other hand, Flynn is a player who is a backup to one of the best players in the game. He has started 1 game since being drafted and played pretty well in that game as well as in relief.
Flynn may turn out to be a decent starter, ARod already is a GREAT starter.
"I'm tired of pretending I'm not a rock star from Mars."
by Kuhl on Mar 31, 2011 5:41 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Your logic is sound, but...
so was his.
"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop
by Mitchell Maurer on Apr 1, 2011 7:31 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Trade A-Rodg vs. Eat Irish Babies. heheh Yah, which is more objectionable?
Either way, all I know is…
Soylent Green is PEOPLE!!!
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 1, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
To be fair....this was from an Irish person therefore he was probably drunk....
and when you’re drunk EVERYTHING sounds like a modest proposal….and I mean everything.
by PhoenicianPakFan on Apr 1, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Too many comments to address one by one
First, I have been a supporter of keeping Flynn. If Rodgers goes down for one to three games next season, I think Flynn could carry the load in the interim. Sure, other guys could possibly step in and do the same, but none of them will know our system as well as Flynn does right now. Why expend the energy to teach a new QB when we have one in place that should only get better?
I read the argument that we don’t really need draft picks this year. I think this is basically true, but there is nothing that says we have to trade him for a draft pick this year. Perhaps some team will trade their 2nd round pick (or even their 1st?) in next year’s draft for Flynn now — or maybe some package of picks. Is that an option worth exploring, or am I one toke over the line?
"Believe me Delmar, woman is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man."
Why expend the energy to teach a new QB when we have one in place that should only get better?
Because Flynn won’t be here after next season.
13.
Actually, I’d be more in favor of getting picks for future drafts than for this one. Right now we’ve got more good players than we need, and only a couple FAs. I’d rather have picks in year when there’s the threat of a lot of guys leaving. So, yeah, a future #1… I’d pull the trigger on that more than for something like a #3 this year.
…not to mention the fact that there’s uncertainty about whether there’ll BE a training camp this year. …not a good year to be a rookie.
by Curly Lambeau on Apr 5, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
This I definitely agree with
CBA probably won’t be resolved until after the draft, so we are more than likely talking about 2012 draft picks.
13.
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