No Complement To Clay Matthews? No Problem!
by Kevin McCauley on Jun 22, 2011 11:01 AM CDT
in Green Bay Packers Analysis
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PrintYesterday, Brandon wrote a post linking to a Pro Football Focus article about how Clay Matthews is a really, really good pass rusher, while Frank Zombo is rather poor. Of course, as a rookie undrafted free agent, it would be very unfair to expect Frank Zombo to be more than an okay, serviceable player, but there's still an issue here. While it's certainly not Zombo's fault that he was a below average NFL pass rusher last season, it's unreasonable to expect the Packers to be a Super Bowl contender year after year with only one great pass rusher.
Strohman, a guy who everyone who visits this site on a regular basis knows, made what I thought was a decent point in the comments of that article. Or, at least, it struck a chord with me and made me think a bit about our defense and why it's not necessarily a big deal that Zombo (or Brad Jones/Erik Walden) aren't anywhere near the level of Clay Matthews. Strohman said:
Until we get a compliment to Matthews we just have to make due w/ what we have. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. [It is] up to Dom to put them into a position to succeed, and Green to coach them to improve.
Upon reading this, I think one of those cartoon lightbulbs popped up above my head. We don't need a complement to Matthews, we make up for the lack of a complement in other ways.
First of all, guys like Clay Matthews don't fall from the sky, and when a team has a player like Matthews and multiple needs other than a pass rusher, they're not going to reach in the draft or overpay a free agent just to get a similar player on the opposite side. Yes, it would aid the Packers considerably to have another Matthews on the opposite side, but doing so would require sacrifice elsewhere. It isn't worth it.
However, we have ways to make up for that missing player, and we do it quite well. If you're a regular APC reader, you might recall my old post on the Capers Nickel, or the 2-4-5 defense we run where the two outside linebackers are stand-up pass rushers that serve the same purpose as 4-3 ends on third down, while Charles Woodson plays as a rover in addition to a traditional four-man secondary. This allows for great pass coverage, but it also allows for very unique blitzing packages.
Because of Charles Woodson's unique skill set and the abilities of Sam Shields - just about the most talented third cornerback in the league - the Packers can run all kinds of crazy blitzes out of this setup. Obviously, Woodson blitzes quite a bit out of this setup. You'll also see Nick Collins blitz while Woodson helps over the top or one of the corners blitz while Woodson covers in man to man. It's effective, and it covers up for the relative lack of pass rushing skill - at least compared to Matthews - that Zombo, Jones, and Walden have.
As much as I'd love Clay Matthews Part II on the other side of the pass rush, Dom Capers has done an excellent job designing various blitz packages that allow us to get pressure on the quarterback without having that player.
And honestly, who's to say Zombo won't get a lot better? He was an average pass rusher, but he also managed four sacks as a rookie undrafted free agent. I think he has some room (and ability) for improvement. Let's not write off the dude yet.
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Grammar
I hate to be “that guy,” but it should be “complement,” with an e.
I agree, though. Having someone of Matthews’ caliber to play on the other side is not really a necessity, more of a “wish list” item.
Exactly how many of those "guys" are there out there anyways?
Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose : it's how drunk you get.
There are only so many playmakers you can afford to pay for the long-term on each side of the ball. The rest of your guys have to be either young pups or vets good enough not to eff up.
On defense, there’s Collins, Woodson, and Williams in the secondary as guys Getting Paid with Peprah as the vet and Burnett & Shields as the youngsters; Barnett, Chillar, Hawk and Bishop as good vets, with CM3 due to Get Paid soon in ‘backers; and on the DL Picket gets Paid, Raji about to be Paid, and Neal as the youngster on the rise. That’s not a bad distribution of talent, and it’s one the Packers can probably afford. At least one playmaker at each level is a something a lot of teams would kill to have.
Not counting injuries, having only one of your defensive starter positions (ROLB) with potentially sub-caliber talent is not bad at all.
Smoke and mirrors only last so long
Sure Capers does a good job of manufacturing a rush.
Sure the 2-4-5 works well with out personnel.
Sure other people stepped up last year and we won the Super Bowl with only Matthews being the NFL calibur rusher.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that a complement isn’t needed for Matthews though. Smoke and mirrors only works for so long in the NFL, after that you need the players to perform and perform at a high level. What I mean is that a coach can only scheme so much, because those other guys scheme well and watch tape and take lots of time to think up ways to cut through that scheme.
Right now the 2-4-5 is vulnerable against a good running game. That’s why our team was average to below average against the run. a 2-4-5 doesn’t help get the big bodies on the field in order to stuff up those lanes. Strong running teams can attack our defense, and our only hope is that the offense is outscoring opponents. We have the offense to do it, but that offense wasn’t consistent enough to really seal the deal for most of the games we had last year. Really most of those losses, and even the Super Bowl, the defense struggled when put up against a strong running attack. Getting a complement to Clay will help us keep bigger bodies on the field, and it will allow the Packers to remain unpredictable with their sets without having to constantly go with exotic packages.
The other thing ot consider is that Matthews DID have a complement last year. It was a cross between Cullen Jenkins and BJ Raji. Each of them had 6 sacks last year. Raji came on at the end and Jenkins performed when healthy. This allows for pressure to come from both sides of the ball when Matthews was moved over to the other side. Now Jenkins is going to be gone and we don’t know what there is in Mike Neal yet. All the more reason to find that complement very soon.
Finally, most of those corner blitzes and manufactured blitzes work because of Woodson and his special abilities. Woodson is one of the best blitzers on the team right now. That’s great, but C-Wood is getting up there in age and the Pack can’t count on him for the long term. Another LB to complement Clay will help with that transition as well.
Stroh is right on many things, but the biggest need for the Packers is finding another pass rusher. I won’t bemoan that we didn’t get one in this last draft (I think the Pack made the right choices really), but it’s still something that needs to be addressed very soon.
we won the Super Bowl with only Matthews being the NFL calibur rusher.
Gotta totally disagree w/ this statement. Jenkins and Raji are both excellent pass rushing DT. When we went w/ the 2-4-5, and had Raji and Jenkins as the DT, the Packers pass rush was extemely formidable and Capers didn’t need to manufacture anything. With Jenkins leaving in FA, it will fall more on Raji to pick his game up another level and for Neal to provide some consistent pressure. Certainly finding an OLB to compliment Matthews would be ideal, but we had a very strong pass rush last year, and it wasn’t due to Capers manufacturing it. I’ve said all along that finding another playmaker opposite Matthews is a need.
Having Matthews, Raji and Jenkins taking alot of attention as pass rushers allowed those other blitzes to work. THe “other” blitzes being CB, ILB and Woodson. Those were effective due to the attention that CM, Raji and Jenkins drew from the OL. Like I said Neal will need to step up this season.
Certainly the 2-4-5 was a large factor in the run D suffering. Having only 2 DL on the field alot is sure to draw the attention of the offense and inspire them to run alot more. However, when we play a strong running team, we played alot more base 34 D. Thats where having Green along w/ Raji and Pickett became important.
Finding a compliment for Matthews should be a top priority, since the OLB in a 34 D are supposed to be playmakers. But we also know that Thompson isn’t going to reach for one! In the meantime w/ Mattews and Raji the Packers have 2 premier pass rushers at their positions. If Neal can provide a little pass rush, then the “other” blitzes will continue to work very well. The NFL becoming more pass oriented every year, expect the Packers to continue the 2-4-5 for quite awile.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I agree with this
Just wanted to point out the semantics of “priority”.
Is it the most glaring hole on our defense? I would say so (at least of right now, we don’t know how the guys we currently have will develop).
But I wouldn’t say it’s a necessity per se. I don’t think this team has any exploitable weakness. Like you pointed out in that post mentioned, Zombo/Walden etc… do have points of weakness, but the way Capers uses them, it’s rarely exploitable.
"IT IS TIME"
Umm...I don't get your point
So you want to say that we won the Super Bowl with only one NFL calibur rusher, but then you go on to say that we have three NFL calibur rushers?
Huh?
As for when the 2-4-5 was used….he did manufacture the pressure. He sent corners, safeties, and all sorts of other personnel. It’s what he does. Yes, Jenkins and Raji were also able to get pressure, but Jenkins is gone and Raji can only do so much from that position. Another consistent pass rusher is needed.
Yes, the NFL is more pass oriented, and I expect the 2-4-5 to stick. We will see just about as much of it since Neal will basically replace Jenkins and Pickett and Green really aren’t the pocket pushers on the D-line. It makes sense for our personnel. However, given this it makes even more sense to find a playmaking OLB who is able to operate out of this formation and a base 3-4.
Finally, for a person who gets his undies in a twist whenever someone puts words in his mouth you seem to be adding lots of words to mine. Did I say that TT needs to reach for a OLB? (the answer is no). My basic point is that the underlying point of this article, that Matthews doesn’t need a complement, is wrong. He does need a complement. We can muddle through for a couple years without it, but it something the team needs.
Think of the Steelers. They have run this scheme for many years. When it started they were able to make it work because there was a very talented corner who was able to play for a long time and transition to safety able to make plays happen all over the field. It fit their personnel. When that corner (Rod Woodson) left they just loaded up on LB’s, espeically OLB’s, in order to maximise the personnel changes but also have the speed and strength to handle pressuring the QB and stopping the running game.
The Packers right now have a corner who is able to do lots of what Rod Woodson did in Charles Woodson. Right now though Woodson is nearing the end of his career and something needs to be addressed as a result. They can either try to find a guy that can do all that Woodson does or they can try to find a talented OLB. As talented as Shields and Williams are, I think the OLB is the better route to take.
by PackApologist on Jun 22, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
My title was a cut and paste from YOUR comment
The blitzing of CB and ILB is a part of Capers D, so in that way they didn’t have to scheme those blitzes. They used them judiciouly also. Maybe (and I’m guessing here) about 15-20% of pass rushers came from those blitzes. On average maybe 5 or 6 plays a game. If you are having to manufacture a pass rush, you have to use those more exotic blitzes much more often (closer to 50% of pass rushers) bucuz you can’t get pressure w/ your normal pass rushers. We got plenty of pass rush w/o having to bring DB’s and ILB. Capers just used them to create uncertainty not so much out of necessity.
The steelers have been drafting and developing OLB for their 34 D for about 2 decades. The Packers have been doing it for 2 yrs. With the way the NFL is becoming a passing league, your going to see the 34 teams use the 2-4-5 allignment in alot of passing situations.
This year Capers might have to scheme a little more to create pressure due to the loss of Jenkins. But I don’t think it will be a necessity. An OLB that can get pressure on a consistent basis opposite Matthews, is a something that is ideal, but not having one doesn’t necessitate having to scheme alot unless Neal doesn’t develop and Raji doesn’t improve. Both of which seem a little unlikely to me.
I didnt not put words into your mouth! I said my thoughts. Were did I say anything to suggest that You said thompson should reach! I said WE, not you… You seem to be the one w/ the panties in a bunch.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
My title was a cut and paste from YOUR comment
I suggest using the quote function when quoting others.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
HEY!
You don’t mess with the Stroh!
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Smoke and mirrors?
Whatchoo talkin’ bout, Willis?
- in sacks last year
- in sacks the year prior
Not to mention THIS article: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/22/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-interior-defensive-linemen/
It’s a myth that we only had Matthews as a viable pass rusher. Jenkins has been THE best interior pass rusher for the last 3 years, and Raji was an interior force last year.
So, in essence, we have 3 elite pass rushers, and not only Matthews. Not to mention Woodson, the best secondary blitzer in the league.
So the man power is there. We may not have a bookend to Matthews, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have players capable of generating pressure outside of Matthews.
And even then, the “smoke and mirrors” you talk about are, in fact, an innovative defensive system. It’s called the zone blitz. It’s as much smoke and mirrors as the West Coast Offense… We clearly have the players to run that scheme very effectively, as shown by being the #2 defense in the league (ppg). And also shown by that ring the players are wearing…
We do not need another pass rushing OLB. Matthews can create outside pressure on his own, and we have at least 2 interior linemen capable of generating pressure consistantly. In fact, inside pressure is what disrupts QBs the most.
It would surely be nice to have a LaMar Woodley opposite Matthews, but one isn’t needed to win more championships.
"IT IS TIME"
by PackersRS on Jun 22, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
It is a bald face need for the long term
Let’s clarify a few things here.
1. I’m talking long term.
2. Cullen Jenkins is gone.
When you take a look at this defense for beyond this year there are only two very good rushers. Like you said, there are three the Packers had last year. Now there is just Raji and Matthews. Both very good, sure, but it doesn’t make for an unpredictable attack. The fact that you are highlighting Jenkins more brings out the fact how much we need another pass rusher since there isn’t a guy as good as him on our team. Neal might pan out, but that’s an unknown.
Woodson is not a long term answer. I love me some C-Wood, but at this point in his career he’s not a player to build around he’s a player to enjoy the ride and maximize whatever he can bring to the table. This means that an answer for a post-Woodson defense needs to be found. That answer is there for the secondary, it’s not there for the pass rush that he brings.
Finally, when I talk about smoke and mirrors I’m talking about building a defense that is year and year out great. Yes, they did very well creating a blitz through scheme last year. They will probably have success this year….but you can only do it through scheme so long. Eventually you need the players who are able to make things happen and make plays. Right now the Packers need one more guy who can get after the QB. It’s a bald face need on the defense, perhaps the only long term need. That’s not panic button material, but it is a reality that the Pack needs to deal with.
by PackApologist on Jun 22, 2011 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Last year the Packers had 3 great pass rushers, who got it done thru individual ability, not so much scheme. You don’t need to scheme for Matthews, Raji and Jenkins to get pressure. They will do it thru their abilities. This coming season is a little unknown, but not entirely so. We all saw Neal bring some pressure prior to his injury. Its not a given that he will continue that, but is fairly likely. Certainly he won’t be as good as Jenkins, but there is also every reason to believe that Raji will continue to improve.
Nobody is denying that a proven pass rusher opposite Matthews is an area to address, if/when possible. Is a guess, but I have to believe they tried in the draft to get an OLB earlier. There weren’t any that were seen a 1st round talents after Vonn Miller. Its also a position that is difficult to project into the NFL, so using a 1st on that position is pretty risky. I’m not a big believer in Elmore, but he was a 6th rd pick. Until there is a guy w/ Matthews-esque ability available near the Packer draft position, it will continue to be a need, tho not a huge one. Honestly I don’t think the Packers schemed very much to generate a pass rush last year.
Its also a reason why it might make sense to bring in Kiwanuka. He has played OLB and is a good pass rusher.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
There isn't a guy on the team?
Says who and based on what? Was there a shutdown corner on the team in 09, besides Woodson? No. But Tramon turned into one. Was there a great ILB on the team in 09, besides Barnett? No, but both Bishop and Hawk developed immensely last year, to the point that they’re the unquestioned starters.
You have absolutely no idea how Zombo, Walden, Jones, Elmore, Neal, Wilson, Wynn will turn out. You don’t know how they will develop. TT’s system is based on development of young players. Just because they haven’t made much of an impact in 1 or 2 seasosn, it doesn’t mean they’re not capable of in the future.
"IT IS TIME"
^This
Raji is a huge force in the middle, and Jenkins has been a great 3-4 pass-rushing end (whom I hope we hold on to).
Credit also to Capers, of course, for some of the sacks, but mostly it’s been CM3, Jenkins, and Raji taking up blockers and getting to the QB. I would like to get another great OLB but as Kevin writes, they just aren’t out there and easily available.
"I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous."
— Hunter S. Thompson
by I voted for Kodos on Jun 22, 2011 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions
We need someone opposite of Clay.
I’m not saying we have to go out and sign a top fa rush linebacker. But, I believe something has to be done to help out Clay. With Jenkins most likely gone, it would be smart for TT to do the unthinkable and sign a free agents. One name that comes to mind is Antwan Barnes. He is more of a pass rush specialist. He’s only 26 and had 4.5 sacks last year. He is a mid level fa that could help the pack this year. If Clay goes down (knock on wood), we probably won’t have much rush coming from our olbs.
by PACK3RS on Jun 25, 2011 1:15 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I love the picture!
Trent Edwards looks like he’s barely walking and Clay simply looks INTIMIDATING. I’m glad he’s on my team!!!!!!!!!!
Superbowl Champs Baby!!!!!
13 World Championships, soon to be 14 after next season...GUARANTEED!!!!!
Nuff said....
IMO
the entire scheme was based on generating a pass rush. The fact that we played wood in the slot so much with his blitzing and tackling ability, the fact that our corners are so air tight they force the QB to hold the ball, the fact that we moved players around on the line. Isn’t that all part of the scheme?
Capers
In 09 we had the #1 defense against the run, correct? In 10, we were not nearly as good. The primary difference: Jolly was suspended. He was a big, agile body. Everything else was, more or less, equal. The emergence, to me at least, of the 2-4-5 last year is really a testament to the creativity of Dom Capers playing to the strengths of his personnel to create mismatches and surprises. I expect to see the 2-4-5 again this coming year, but I also expect some new wrinkles with the emergence of Neal, the probable loss of Jenkins. Depending upon who does what well, there will be weaknesses that will or won’t be exploited with that as well. There’s nothing smoke and mirrors about it, in my opinion. It’’s just excellent coaching.
To sum up my opinion: the past is not necessarily a reflection of the future when there are so many factors in place.
I’d like to say we need a pass rushing OLB to complement CM3, but I have learned to have faith in TT, MM, and DC to get the absolute most out of what we have and am frankly not terribly concerned. It was good enough to win the Super Bowl!
Jolly
He’s good against the run, but provides almost nothing in the pass rush department. I’d rather be great against the pass than against the run in the NFL today. And to do that means being able to rush the passer. And Jolly doesn’t cut it – and his batted passes at the line don’t count for much. Also, teams had decent running numbers against in part for two reasons: first, QB runs skewed the numbers, and two, Capers is smart enough to know that no NFL teams run the ball ten times in a row to march downfield, so stopping the pass is far more important.
"I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous."
— Hunter S. Thompson
by I voted for Kodos on Jun 23, 2011 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
THS
Completely agree with this in all accounts.
The primary reason wasn’t Jolly, not even close. Stopping the run simply wasn’t the focus of the defense, playing the pass was. When we were asked to (3rd down conversions, endzone) our team was as good as ever, not allowing anything more than 1 rushing TD in any game all season, and generally having the upper hand in time of possession, despite the lack of a running game.
"IT IS TIME"
Nebraska's defense was very similar.
We played a ton of DBs because they were better than the LBs (2 of 3 starting LBs were hurt). The pass defense was tremendous, one of the best in college football. But the run defense wasn’t on the same level. Sometimes you have to make a choice.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
hmmm
I don’t think you’re saying anything different than I did. Jolly was good at stopping the run. I agree he was not great at getting to the QB – but that’s not what this post is about so I didn’t comment on that.
by gern blanston on Jun 24, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
duh...sorry
I meant that thread of the post…
by gern blanston on Jun 24, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
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