How complex is the Packers' offense?
by NorthStarr on Jul 17, 2011 6:13 PM CDT
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PrintIn the comments underneath, one Giants fan (GhostDini) said,
There are so many pre-snap reads in our offense. I’d love to have the Packers offense. It’s so basic.I responded that our offense is not so basic, and threw out the first thing that came into my head, which wss that each of our receivers can line up at any of the receiver positions on any given play, and properly execute the particular responsibilities (route running, timing with Rodgers, etc.) of the position they line up in.
Then, one guy (tommy d.) essentially argued that that only proves that the Packers' offense is simple; so simple that the receivers can do that without being confused by it all, but I counter-argued that the fact that our receivers do that makes our offense exponentially more complex.
So then, tommy d. asked if that is the common belief, that Philbin/McCarthy’s offense is complicated, and I said I wasn't really sure what the common belief is, and would write a fanpost over here to generate a consensus.
So, please, vote in the poll, give us your thoughts (including anything else that you think may make our offense "so basic" or not so basic, and help generate that consensus opinion for tommy d.
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Follow up
I’ll take your post as an opportunity to answer another question some of the bloggers here had about Starks integration into the offense, and McCarthy’s confidence in using him is formations other than the heavy T back set.
Earlier this boring offseason a couple of us were discussing whether or not Starks was used exclusively in the heavy T back set. After re-watching the Falcons playoff game, I can say for certain that McCarthy did not simplify or limit his play/formation selection with Starks on the field.
The first offensive play is a run to Starks. The second however was much more interesting: Starks actually moved out to receiver. The play was a double screen, with Jackson and the O-line running a screen out of the backfield and Starks doing an stop screen on the outside.
Throughout the game I observed Starks lining up in just about every formation we commonly use (multiple variations of 3WR sets, 2 TE sets, and 4 WR sets). His responsibilities included several complex blitz pickups and reads, which were generally successful (I didn’t notice any sacks or pressure given up).
To speak more specifically to your question: I think it’s hard to compare the “complexity” of the systems from a fan perspective and would question that Giants fan’s perceived mastery or authority on the subject.
One phrase you’ll hear a lot when listening to Rodgers and Favre talk about running this offense: “We take what the defense gives us”. Our system has adjustments and built in options at the QB position to allow our QB the power to run within the system while playing their position with freedom and liberty to capitalize on mismatches and opportunities.
It’s simple I suppose, in a sense: if the defense plays man to man, our offense intends to win that battle a majority of the time. So the defense schemes and adjusts in an effort to confuse and inevitable surrenders at least one area of the field. It’s a chess match that isn’t unique to Green Bay, and if I had to guess I’d say Eli Manning is, simply put, no where near the QB that Aaron Rodgers is, (and Brent Farve was). Favre operated on instinct, and Rodgers is technician and brilliant decision maker. Eli’s pre-snap adjustments probably are pretty complex, for that guy.
Its complex!
McCarthy is always talking about how “multiple” our offense is. Multiple formations, personnel groupings, play variations from the same formation… Rodgers has to know every detail of every play w/ knowledge of who is lining up where. Anyone who thinks a WCO is simple, simply doesn’t know what he’s talking about!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
"multiple" our offense is.
Shudder
Sounds like Shawn Watsdon.
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Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
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Aside from Bill Callahan.
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"If you don't tell him what he wants to hear, he's going to find you out. And when he does, they're going to tear your head off and throw your BODY OUT OF AN AIRLOCK!" - Number Six, "Bastille Day"
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Jul 17, 2011 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions
FTFY
Ah, everyone’s favoriteNebraskaLouisville coach…
Good riddance.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
How many shifts are there in the offense?
The Colts run almost entirely out of a 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB package, with almost no motions. The Pats use multiple packages each with multiple formations, and shifts and motions on most plays. A larger playbook would make it more complex to learn.
Every QB should be making pre snap reads, that’s kind of the position. The only QBs that don’t tend to be rookies, and Mark Sanchez.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Well, it seem to me that,
if every receiver can play each of the receiver positions on every play in the playbook, then every passing play out of a three-receiver set in the playbook has six variations, every play out of a four-receiver set has 24 and every play out of a five-receiver set has 120!
That, as I alluded to both at BBV and in this post, makes the playbook ‘larger’ and, in turn, “more complex to learn,” because, on every single one of those variations, the quarterback has to know where every one of his receivers is, as well as where each of them is supposed to go.
And then, from that, he has to be able to read the matchups and recognize the mis-matches — and all of that on top of the usual recognition of things like blitzes and where they are coming from, etc.
Then, on top of that, throw in that, on each variation of each play, each receiver has to have his route-running down precisely pat, and the timing between the quarterback and each of the receivers has to be next to impeccable!
I think if I were a fan of the n y men,
I wouldn’t be wishing that on Eli, haha.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Do the Packers continuously change packages? Lots of shifting pre snap?
3 wideouts this play, 3 RBs on the next, 5 wide after that, 3 TEs (maybe not with Finley out), and so on? Does Jennings line up on the left for this play, but on the next he motions out of the slot to the right?
The WCO by nature is a complex offense (but with simple terminology), but some are more complex than others. McCarthy’s would be much bigger and more difficult than the one Holmgren’s using with Colt McCoy in Cleveland, because he’s got far more experienced personnel.
And if I were a Giants fan, I’d want Eli handing off as much as possible, and only having to make high-low reads on play action otherwise.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Based on my memory I'd say yes.
There are times when we line up in 1 WR sets with Nelson, others with 2 FB/1 RB, in the super bowl we ran a 5 WR with Swain at least once, and even one with Raji at FB! As for pre snap shifting, I’d say it mostly occurs but is not limited to the backfield (moving a TE in to pass block, etc.). Much of Jennings’ success last year came out of the slot, but he was not restricted to that position in the course of the game or even on sequential plays.
Plus, I can only see the offense becoming more complex in the upcoming years as we integrate Cobb into the offense and Driver out.
This year
I think the offense will be pared down due to no offseason practices, OTA’s and minicamps. That should allow the rookies to get the philosophy of the playbook and offense down and be able to build off it in the next couple years agian.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Probably at least until a month into the season...
In Every Climb and Place....
by PhoenicianPakFan on Jul 24, 2011 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/43194894/ns/sports-nfl/
Funky Formations. Using empty backfield and full-house backfield formations as barometers, we can determine just how many different "funky" formations a team runs. The more formations an offense uses, the harder that system must be to install. The Packers (149 "funky formation" plays) and Saints (104) led the league in this category, while the Jaguars emptied their backfield just eight times and never used any kind of full house backfield.
"IT IS TIME"
That article also says the Bills offense is more complex than the Pats.
I don’t k ow what to believe now.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
That's only because they used a no-QB formation every time Trent Edwards was on the field
Snap.
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by Comedic.Sans on Jul 25, 2011 2:17 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
I lol'd.
In Every Climb and Place....
by PhoenicianPakFan on Jul 25, 2011 4:15 AM CDT up reply actions
So did I
Just got done reading this.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
so me and northstarr were sitting on a bluff overlooking cook inlet. to the north lies Denali. a ship sailing south from the port of anchorage comes by.as it nears the name on the bow slowly comes into focus, NORTHSTAR
True story.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Hey NorthStarr.
I see the vote is heavily in favor of complex. But I was hoping for some more evidence in the comment section. I wonder if the lack of comments is because people really aren’t sure (?)
Just get it done already...
No, its definitely complex!
I think most of us are dumbfounded that anyone would think its not!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I didn't know, so I asked.
I realize it says above in NorthStarrs Fanpost that I “argued” that it’s simple. That is not accurate. So I’m just learning here, Stroh, enjoying the Packer talk.
Just get it done already...
No offense
But I’ve always found NorthStarr to be a very straight shooter, I don’t think he would make that claim if it weren’t true. So I’ll take his word for it…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
My only worry was that I would get blasted
here and a whole bunch of people who have never seen my screen name before focused on the word “argued” and started calling me stupid and started picking on Eli. LOL. I have to deal with abuse whenever I go to the Eagles site. They are bitter over there (no championships will do that).
But seriously, to paraphrase, I pointed out that maybe because all the WR’s knew all the positions that that might mean it was simple. I even framed it as a question. Because I don’t know. But then this other guy, who is often abrasive, did argue that very point.
Anyway, I’m just trying to enjoy more football banter over here. I’ll argue a point, but never when I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Just get it done already...
Sorry for that, tommy.
Although, I did say, “esssentually argued.” :)
And, I did link to the fanpost over there, so people could read the discussion, themselves.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
And they say I'm inhospitable!
I argue w/ a vikes fan who among other things said Ahman Green was only a “good” RB and Peterson was Elite, even tho he had the same rushing yards as Peterson after 4 years. All I did was tell him to take off the purple blinders when he visited!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You got that right. :)
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Yeah, but now they're weighed down by
the curse of Lombardi.
They haven’t won another championship since they gave Vince his only postseason loss, when Bednarik sat on Taylor, more than fifty years ago!
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Technically,
the Vikings scoreboard reads
1 NFL championship &
0 World Championships
since they won their only NFL title during the four years (1966-1969) when it wasn’t synonymous with a WC, and then they blew it against the Chiefs.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
NFL championship in the Vikings’ case is semantics.
That means the Packers have 11 championships and 4 super bowls.
What was the criteria that decided the ultimate championship in the years pre NFL-AFL merger? The superbowl, not the AFL or the NFL championship game.
The Vikings never won the final game. There has never been a football season where the Vikings were the best team in professional football. There has been 13 such occurences where the Packers have come out the best team in all of football.
"IT IS TIME"
The Packers
have 13 championships, including 4 Super Bowls.
From 1933-1965, the NFL championship game was the World Championship game.
The Colts are the World Champions! Ameche scores!The advent of the Super Bowl, in 1966, made that the World Championship game, and the merger in 1970 made the Super Bowl the NFL Championship Game.
But, in the interum, from 1966-1969 (and, only during those four years), the NFL championship, and the Super Bowl championship were two different things, and in 1969, the Vikings were NFL champions, but not World Champions.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
by NorthStarr on Jul 23, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just like to set the record straight. :)
And, it does illustrate that the lone championship that their fans cling to is virtually worthless, since they ultimately failed to win it all.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Point being...
If you’re willing to say that the Vikings have 1 NFL Championship, because, even though they lost to the Chiefs, they won against the Browns in the “NFL Championship game”, you need to say the Packers have 15 NFL Championships, since they also won both NFL Championships against Dallas.
If you’re treating the term NFL Championship the same as Pro Football title, the Vikings never had any.
Because, exactly like you said, the meaning and importance of NFL Championship changed. Before the 1966 season, and after the 1970 season, being the NFL Champion equaled being the supreme champion in pro-football. But during that period, the NFL Champinship had an equivalent importance to the NFC Championship.
"IT IS TIME"
You really don't seem to understand.
If you’re willing to say that the Vikings have 1 NFL Championship, because, even though they lost to the Chiefs, they won against the Browns in the "NFL Championship game", you need to say the Packers have 15 NFL Championships, since they also won both NFL Championships against Dallas.
has already been refuted by
from 1966-1969 (and, only during those four years), the NFL championship, and the Super Bowl championship were two different thingsIf the Vikings had beat the Chiefs, that would not have been another NFL championship; neither do Super Bowls I and II count as additional championships for the Packers.
Those were world (ultimate) championships, not BFL championships.
For the 1966-1969 seasons, the term NFL Championship is NOT the same as Pro Football title, hence the Vikings have an NFL Championship, but do not have a Pro Football title, and the Packers won their 10th and 11th NFL Championships when they beat the cowBoys on January 1 and December 31, 1967, and won their 10th and 11th Pro Football titles when they won the first two Super Bowls.
As for
But during that period, the NFL Champinship had an equivalent importance to the NFC Championship.that is also not correct.
Before 1970, the NFL Championship Game had the significance of being for an NFL title (which the Packers have 13 of); since 1970, the NFC Championship game has not had that significance, which was transferred to the Super Bowl.
The significance of NFC Championship game, post merger, was downgraded to that of the 1965 Western Conference Championship Game, which is to say, it became just the game that determined who got to play in the game for the NFL, and Pro Football, title.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
You're saying the same thing I am
You don’t count the 1966-1969 NFL Championships as NFL titles, which is exactly what I said. So you don’t say the packers have 13 NFL championships, but rather 13 NFL titles.
As for the equivalency, when they agreed to make a final game (Super Bowl) between the two leagues, the two leagues started to have the same importance.
The most important game of the season wasn’t the NFL Championship. It was the Super Bowl. The NFL Championship and the AFL Championship were the 2nd most important game in pro football.
And so are the NFL and AFL championship games. The 2nd most important games in football.
"IT IS TIME"
No, that's incorrect
The Ice Bowl was the most important game that season. The SB was an afterthought. It wasn’t until the Jets won that the AFL-NFL matchup was looked at as more than an exhibition (for NFL teams, at least).
13.
That was the belief by the NFL teams.
But they were being passed by in innovation, mostly on offense, by the AFL.
And the AFL teams were just as good on defense. Case in point both the Jets and KC SB winning teams. They both won on the defensive side of the ball. The AFL actually was better after the merger. I know I could easily look it up, but when did the Steelers join the AFC?
Anyway, we may be able to look at it this way: Out of the first 14 SB championships, 10 were from the AFC
Just get it done already...
They were more innovative on offense, but they weren't as good overall
The Packers creamed both of the teams they faced, and the Colts were overly confident in their team so much that they disregarded the Jets.
The AFL was not better than the NFL before the merger. The Steelers were part of the NFL until the merger, when the Colts, Browns & Steelers switched over to the AFC to make the conferences even.
Anyway, we may be able to look at it this way: Out of the first 14 SB championships, exactly 3 were in the AFL in 1965.
The aforementioned Colts who overlooked the Jets, and the ’69 Chiefs & ’76 Raiders (who incidentally both won against the Vikings).
13.
I don't agree with that
I think the AFL was as close in overall level. The NFL was better but definitely not by much
It was just that the Packers were so dominant and so better than everyone else on that decade. When they faded, the NFL couldn’t keep it up and lost to the AFL both times. While that doesn’t necessarily means that the AFL was better, it means it was close enough to be able to win those games.
"IT IS TIME"
They were close
but not as good as the NFL at the time. The NFL got the better talent (for the most part). I’m not discounting the AFL out of hand, I just think that they weren’t quite as good.
13.
Dominant
Actually I think the packers weren’t nearly as dominant in the SB’s as they were in the early 60’s. Especially SB 2 they barely made it to the SB and while they won the SB’s handily, I think alot of it had to do w/ the Packers experience and ability to elevate their play in the really big games. The SB 1 & 2 teams while very good were not all that dominant anymore. Barely making the playoffs IIRC for the year of SB 2
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
This is all true.
And Weidman pointing out that only 3 SB winning teams out of the first 14 were TRUE AFL teams is very telling, IMO. So those teams built their organizations under the NFL “umbrella.”
Question: And I guess this is for Weidman as much as anyone: At what point do you stop looking at a former NFL team as such, and just consider their SB win a legitimate win for the AFL without qualifying them as “a former NFL team?”
Just get it done already...
Well, they'll never count as AFL teams
(and it’s Wiedmann, btw).
If you are talking about individual seasons, you can include the new AFC teams, but if you’re talking about how good the AFL was & you’re using the Steelers to show that, well, that’s just not right.
and I did cheat a little bit to make my point more impressive. The Dolphins were an expansion AFL team, so if you add them in you get:
NFL 9-AFL 5
Going to SB XXXI (one that has special meaning to me)
NFL 24-AFL 7
Raiders 3, Dolphins 2, Chiefs/Jets 1. That’s it.
13.
For the AFL? No.
At what point do you stop looking at a former NFL team as such, and just consider their SB win a legitimate win for the AFL
For the AFC, yes.
“considering their SB win a legitimate win for the AFL” goes with “looking at a former NFL team as such” anf also goes out with it.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Should have said / meant to say
considering anything [including their SB win] a legitimate win for the AFL
sans quote marks
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Might have been a bad choise of words.
Probably sgould’ve said ‘replied’ instead of argued.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
I'm a basketball guy.
I’m not the best one to comment on the complexity of a football offense.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Admitting is the first step.
I’m a basketball guy.
In Every Climb and Place....
by PhoenicianPakFan on Jul 21, 2011 1:14 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Keeping this in simple terms
All the WR’s have to be prepared for any adjustments at the line. Rodgers does change some hot routes or plays. All the WR’s must be able to play in the slot or outside.
The QB and C work together to adjust protection schemes. The C focuses on how the DL lines up, the QB focuses on how the LB’s line up.
The RB’s must be able to move out to the slot.
The TE’s must be able to move to the RB position to pass protect.
The playbook itself consists of 1-5 WR sets, 1-3 RB sets.
This is the first time anyone here has really heard of our offense being “simple.” It’s far from simple, but is definitely QB friendly as the QB has more control of the offense. Everything we have ever read indicates our offense is very complex, along with our defense.
I ran out of quotes.....
Well, I gotta say, tommy,
I, too, was hoping for a little more in the comments, but I think that Jabooty augmented the points in my own comments rather nicely, to sum up in a nutshell why our offense shouldn’t be thought of a simple (although, if opposing DCs want to approach us that way, we’ll take it, haha), and, maybe, many feel that no more needs to be added.
Anyway, you did get your original question, which prompted this fanpost, about whether or not the belief that our offense is complicated is a common one, answered better than I could answer it when you asked, so there’s at least that. :)
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Yeah, some good specifics by Jabooty.
I’m somewhat familiar with how the Giants run their offense, but not to the extent of how Jabooty lists the WR and RB sets. I know that Eli calls out the protections for the line, unlike your center doing that. And that he identifies the Mike Backer for the RB.
Our WR’s move from the outside to the slot and vice versa. Eli of course calls the hot-reads. Which from what I understand, get pretty complicated because they call for the WR’s to figure out which way to go depending on the coverage.
I don’t see our RB’s in the slot too often, though on occasion even Jacobs is out there. :-)
Of course our TE’s lineup in the backfield to block sometimes.
I still feel like I need to know more. Maybe I’ll make a similar fanpost on BBV and see what I can learn. I’ll be continuing to check you out over here, thanks for the knowledge.
Just get it done already...
Just adding what I just said....
This writer feels that the Packers have the most complex offense in the NFL.
While it may scare some people because he is claiming the lockout will affect the complex offenses in the NFL, the Packers have the benefit of not starting any rookies.
I ran out of quotes.....
Giants' fans are morons apparently
Our offense utilizes the most number of personel shifts in the league. That alone makes it complex.
But what really makes it complex is that it’s basically all in the shoulders of Rodgers. He’s responsible for changing plays in the LOS (often does, almost always favoring the pass), call protections, shift snap count. Not only that, but contraty to most of the offenses, there aren’t the typical scripted first 15 plays that was a staple of Bill Walsh.
Our receivers have the same responsability of the Giants’, in terms of making reads and changing routes depending on coverage, it happened in the SB when Jennings went the 7 (corner) and burned Polamalu, because we had run the exact same play twice with Jennings running the 6 (deep in). Not only that, but we actually employ the backshoulder throw a lot, something they don’t do, and that is the most complex throw in football, requiring perfect timing with the receivers, and it is a read throw, it’s built-in (it doesn’t always go perfect, Rodgers missed a couple of those in the middle of the season, because he read one thing and the receiver other).
Also, the Packers employ something I’ve only seen them doing, which is the run/pass option, that are runs with slants and short curls routes, that, if Rodgers believes the D is stacked and the CBs aren’t playing close enough to the receiver, he can keep the ball to himself and throw it to the receivers. In this play the OL runblocks.
They’ve also standards play for offsides.
So, Giants fans, stop talking crap and making excuses for your shitty QB, and actually learn about football before you run your mouth.
"IT IS TIME"
by PackersRS on Jul 21, 2011 3:32 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Regarding number of personel shifts
Read this:
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/43194894/ns/sports-nfl/
"IT IS TIME"
Ok, reading that, it came out very offensive
So I apologize for tha, but I still stand by what I said. Manning is not a great QB (very good QB, top 15), and the reason their receivers run the wrong routes is not because the offense is overly complex, is because the receivers aren’t very smart. Or did they have this problem with Plaxico Buress, Amani Toomer and Steve Smith? I think not.
Our receiving core has been the same since 08, everyone of them is very smart (though not always focused cough James Jones cough) and has the same build. And our coaches aren’t dumb enough to ask them to do what they can’t do. As a rookie, Jordy Nelson wasn’t asked to read coverages, it’s not every single receiver that is asked to adjust routes in every single play.
"IT IS TIME"
Apologies sincerely accepted.
And our WR’s are young. Steve Smith is in his fifth year and he is the elder statesman. Eli has been bringing the youngsters along nicely, but with growing pains. It would have helped to have Amani around, but hey, Father Time gets us all.
And you may be right about our WR’s not being the smartest around. I have heard that about Smith, but he always has run great routes and is where Eli expects him too be. Manningham, however, had intelligence issues coming out of Michigan and I have seen it on the field: wrong routes, can’t keep his feet inbounds, etc. He is only in his third year and I have seen physical and mental improvement each year, so, I mostly optimistic.
My biggest concern at wideout is the health of Smith. He misses games every year and this off season he had micro-surgery on his knee.
Just get it done already...
Smith
had micro-fracture? Thats not good. I wouldn’t count on him much this season. He should be able to play, but he won’t be the same for at least a year after surgery. Used to be longer than even that, but they have made advancements in micro-fracture. I would say Smith is a HUGE ?? this year.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
That very subject has been
a point of debate for us BBVers. I tend to lean towards not seeing his best until mid-season AT BEST, ala Welker from last year. Who knows? We can look to Osi on our team and see how it took him a full year to see hi best, or the Welker example, or TO from last year I think had micro-fracture surgery (?). I think he was good right away.
So, yeah, I guess I gave you the long answer to “I agree, HUGE ??”
Just get it done already...
When did he have surgery?
It’ll be a full year to see him look like himself. Kinda depends on how bad the knee was pre-surgery, but generally a full year. I don’t think Welker was himself last year at all, but should be back to himself this year from the start. TOol just had his micro-fracture this off-season didn’t he? Maybe that will be the end of his career. I don’t see any team lining up to sign a 37 yr old WR coming off that surgery. Be the end of the year before he might be able to play.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
TOol. I like that, may have to use it if it's ok with you. LOL
Smith had surgery in Dec. He is a big ? and a big concern. Coupled with the revolving door at LT, the offense was not the same without Smith.
Just get it done already...
I would put him on PUP
Get him back as early as wk 7 or 8. He’s probably on the edge of being able to do much in the early part of the year. Let him get some explosiveness back before getting him on the field.
I’ve been using the TOol thing for a long time already! LOL
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Totally agree with the PUP for Smith
What concerns do you, as a fan of the defending world champions, have with your team?
I know you had alot of guys on IR last year. Most notably former Giant Ryan Grant, and Jemichael Finely. And what about Woodson? He had a shoulder injury I think?
And I don’t remember specifically who you drafted, but I remember an overall feeling of being impressed with need/value.
Just get it done already...
Honestly
Not any really pressing concerns. LG is a minor one, if we don’t resign Colledge. Getting Finley back makes the offense very explosive, but we have to find a way to keep them all happy. Grant will play this year in GB, after that he’ll be gone. Which is fine we already have more talented options than Grant. Woodson broke his collarbone and should be fine for training camp. We need to find a reliable 4th CB, who can take over when Woodson retires. If Jackson leaves as a FA we need to find a new 3rd down RB. Finding someone who can play Jenkins role is our biggest worry, but even there we have guys in place, we just don’t know exactly how good they are.
Had a good draft… No rookies that will help immediately except Cobb in the 2nd. He’ll be the PR/KR immediately and work in some at WR, but I don’t think he’ll have a impact as a WR. Sherrod our 1st round pick will work as the backup LT. House in the 4th was a very good pick IMO and might be our 4th CB this year and take over for Wood, but he has to show he can play in the NFL. Most of the late round picks are bottom of the roster guys or practice squad guys that have a chance to develop.
Really just minor issues that we have contingency’s for. We are pretty solid up and down the roster. No real big issues to speak of, at least till FA starts and we find out who we need to replace. But as I mentioned we have plans for anyone we might lose already on the roster.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Minor issues. It seemed that way to me too.
I’m heading out early this morning and won’t be at a computer today. I’d like to respond more tonight if I can. Until then, it’s been nice chatting with you Stroh…
Just get it done already...
You're welcome over here anytime, tommyd.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Until we meet in the playoffs, then the gloves come off!!! LOL
Oh, wait. It will be sooner. We meet in the second half of the season at some point. In GB….again.
Just get it done already...
in December.
Three weeks earlier than last season.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Yeah, we have to go to Atlanta again
Doesn’t seem fair, but that’s how it crumbles sometimes. Everybody gets 8 home & 8 away.
13.
About as fair as
going to DallAss seven times in four years (1993-1996) in the nineties.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Except for the designated home team
Everybody gets 8 home & 8 away.
in that game in London.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
GB's chances to repeat:
Adding Finley must scare the heck out of the rest of your division. And who are the more talented options that Grant? Starks? I like what he did in the playoffs, but that is a small sample size, and he was fresh. I think that fact is significant. What do you think of him?
Bulaga at RT last year, Sherrod as the eventual LT this year. Great two first’s you got in the last two years. Build from the inside out. Smart. I like Sherrod. I don’t watch college ball, so keep that in mind, but I catch up on the players going into the draft and I like Sherrod. A bit stiff, but powerful enough, and a good athlete with good upside and great size. I think he’s like 6-6 320 or something? I was hoping my Giants would match need and value in the first and take either him, Carimi, or Pouncey. But the Giants have so much faith in their OLine coach (and the track record for that faith), that they draft OLinemen usually later and develop them. Too many sacks last year, and Rodgers does not need to have his bell rung anymore, so no surprise on those two first round picks. He’s your franchise, obviously.
Oh lets throw the Packers a “Pity Party”, they need a fourth corner! LOL. The only area where you have more of an embarrassment of riches is WR. I loved watching your corners play in the playoffs last year. I enjoy that position alot. Tramon Williams, damn he’s good….
Question, who’s your MVP? Rodgers, or Thompson?
Just get it done already...
Repeat.
Obviously it too early to be talkin repeat. But its out there… Alot of work to do in the next 4 months. More talented than Grant is Starks and probably Green out 3rd round RB. This is no indictment against Grant, but both are probably more talented than Grant. Grant has production on his side and should be the starter, but don’t be surprised if Starks becomes the #1 RB soon enough. He is just more elusive and has better vision than Grant.
Both Bulaga and Sherrod were a perfect match in the draft. Bulaga fell to us and could be a LT, but likely will be a RT. Sherrod is a really good fit for us at LT. Pass blocker and good in space. as a run blocker.
Rodgers simply has to slide sooner this year. He dove for 1st downs last year, and he’s too valuable to risk that from now on. 4th CB is a concern, since its hard to predict how long Woodson lasts. My guess is 2 years. If Woodson can do that, and House develops we’ll be good in the D secondary. Loved House going into the draft, so I’m hopefull to say the least. Tramon should have been a Pro Bowler, but if he can put 2 seasons back to back he’ll get it this year.
MVP? On the field, clearly Rodgers! Off clearly Thompson! He has assembled an extemely talented and deep team. Love em both… Always have!!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Work to do, of course.
But isn’t it just great how F-ing rosey everything looks after a championship? Ya know, that thing that Viqueens fans, and Eagles fans know nothing about? LOL
Just get it done already...
Thinks are pretty Freakin rosey! LOL
Not just the SB that does it for me either. Its the quality of team that Thompson has assembled and the coaching of McCarthy. We have such good depth, that honestly I have few concerns at the moment!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I just looked up GB's cap situation.
$62,000 under if the cap is $120 mil is what I saw. I looked that up because I am curious about Jenkins. Is he gonna stay or go in your opinion? He is soooo important to you D, a lynch-pin some might say.
Just get it done already...
Jenkins
Will sign elsewhere this offseason. He’s a very good player and we’d love to have him back. Just isn’t affordable. They drafted Neal and Wilson last year in preparation for the Jenkins loss. Good player, no doubt. But 30 yrs old and has some injury history. Packers won’t be able to match the 10M salary he gets in FA, nor should they, IMO. We have to release or trade Barnett and Tauscher just to get under the cap and sign draft picks. They might be able to bring back Colledge or Jones too, but its not likely. Raji is the lynchpin for the D, along w/ Matthews and Woodson. Hate to lose Jenkins but its as much a done deal as there is.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
RAJI!!!! OF COURSE!!!!
He is “the man.” If your running a 3-4, that NT is the most important player on the field. Everyone knew when that guy was coming out of BC he had like zero chance of busting. Kinda like Suh last year. Those Lions aren’t push-overs anymore, are they? They are coming on slow and steady…
Just get it done already...
I expect the Lions
to come on like Tampa Bay did last year.
They should finish ahead of the Bares and the Yikes!, and challenge for a wild-card spot.
It should be fun watching those two teams fighting to stay out of last place. :)
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Love me some Raji!
Was all over him heading into the draft and couldn’t be happier that we got him! I think the Lions compete for a wild card this season. Can see 9 wins for them and if Stafford stays healty the could be a challenge. The ’12 season is when I expect them to make a serious challenge for the Packers!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
lets see Stafford stay on the field, then talk about contending
Just get it done already...
by tommy d. on Jul 23, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
THIS
People talk about him and Bradford as surefire elite QBs. It’s not as if they’ve excelled so far…
Without an elite QB, your chances of contending are 0%, unless you have the 2000 Baltimore’s or the 2002 Bucs’ defense, which isn’t the case for neither the Rams nor the Lions.
And for all the grief I give Eli, he was elite in the 2007 playoffs. Every single game, he was the best QB on the field, and made plays that without him they don’t win it all.
"IT IS TIME"
I think Tyree helped a bit on one.
It’s all a bit fuzzy from that time onward.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Sorry Pats fan.
A perfect season with all the dominance along the way would have been a nice thing to hang your hat on. To always be able to say “we had the best team EVER.” But you ran into a better team that day.
I bet if those teams played 10 times the Pats win like 7 of them.
Question for you: IYO, was Brady hobbled enough that day for you to say it was a big factor?
Just get it done already...
Not so much hobbled as flattened.
The O-line was awful that day – 5 sacks, plus a bunch of hits. Brady was lucky not to have been killed on a couple of those sacks, too. Nick Kaczur at RT was awful, Mankins wasn’t great, Matt Light looked slow, and Dan Koppen looked old.
Unsurprisingly, the Pats have dropped quite a few draft picks on the O-line in recent years – Sebastian Vollmer, and now Nate Solder and Marcus Cannon.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Jul 23, 2011 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
OR
The Giants’ DL was THAT GOOD that day (and through the playoffs for that matter)
"IT IS TIME"
by PackersRS on Jul 23, 2011 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Unbelievable. It really was.
I still can’t believe that play though. No way that actually happened.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
I guess the ankle hampered his mobility a bit back there.
But I don’t know. It really was a thing of beauty, that defense, but I think McD was too caught up in Brady to Moss to change it once he knew what was happening. Should have ran draws with Faulk far more than they did, and more Maroney. The final drive they had it figured out though, and just started dumping it to Welker rather than trying to gain 20 yards at a time.
And then that slacker Randy Moss drops two perfect bombs with 10 seconds left. 100 bucks says he catches them if it’s October in Miami up by 40 points.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Anyone else see the conflict in these two statements?
And then that slacker Randy Moss drops two perfect bombs with 10 seconds left. 100 bucks says he catches them if it’s October in Miami up by 40 points.
A move [signing Randy Moss] that was good for the team
13.
So Moss's entire season was determined by exactly two snaps?
Okay. Sure. Whatever you say.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Jul 24, 2011 3:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Nothing important.
You seem to be trying, in your all-encompassing Patriots hate, to make an issue out of the use of the word ‘slacker’ in the first statement, and the contradiction with calling the Moss signing “good for the team,” which statement I, frankly, can’t even find in this thread.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
by NorthStarr on Jul 24, 2011 5:15 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
You'd think the Pats stole his lunch-money or something.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Jul 24, 2011 6:08 AM CDT up reply actions
You gotta cross-reference
http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2011/7/16/2279133/rodgers-place-among-qbs-today#72591131
They’ve invaded the site so much that there’s Patriot discussion on multiple threads.
13.
I have been visiting (invading?),
and commenting on, the sites for all of the teams in the league, lately, and have seen both of these guys on some of them, respectfully talking football, just as they are doing here.
And, I’ve seen you on other teams sites, doing the same thing, yourself.
And. weren’t you part of the crowd condemning Strohman for his vitriol against PJ, who was doing the same thing, last week?
Of course you were.
Pot, meet kettle.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
by NorthStarr on Jul 24, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
It IS a cesspool
And PJ sayin that Peterson is elite and Ahman Green was just good is a complete diss to one of the Packers best RB and career rushing leader. Only difference between them in yrs 1-4 w/ respecive teams was 20 yds a season. ANd Green has THE best season between the 2, and about 3 or 4 runs longer than anything Peterson has had. Thats just one of the things he was arguing too. Ponder being a good QB as a rookie also.
And prior to that I simply asked him to take off his purple goggles, which he did not do…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I agree with this
I don’t see the guys from other teams being nothing other than respectfull. They may disagree with what some Packers fans are saying, but definitely in a polite manner. Heck, I was an asshole to Giants fans and a Giants fan responded with nothing but cordiality.
"IT IS TIME"
by PackersRS on Jul 24, 2011 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bombs
CWeb got a hand on and knocked one away from Moss and the other one did touch Randy’s hands but there were two Giants all over him, bumping, challenging the catch.
Iv’e said this before: That is the best SB ever played, game, circumstances, and the spectacular play (Catch 42). But it could be argued that a couple of other SB’s were as good or possibly better (not IMO, though). But imagine if Moss had caught one of those bombs and scored a TD with seconds left? Would there be ANY doubt that that was the greatest game ever played? I think not.
Side note, and very relevant because were on APC: My favorite Giant game of all time is the NFC Championship win over GB.
Just get it done already...
There was no NFCCG beween the Giants and Packers...
and the entire 2007 season was missed due to a rip in time….
/repeats mantra while rocking back and forth
In Every Climb and Place....
by PhoenicianPakFan on Jul 24, 2011 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Actually I was the Giants biggest fan...
in that Super Bowl against the Patriots and am very happy they won. I don’t think the Packers would have beat the Pats and then they would have had their perfect season….
In Every Climb and Place....
by PhoenicianPakFan on Jul 24, 2011 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Tend to agree
I didn’t feel at all confident that the Packers could beat the Pats in 07, but the NYG had a really good matchup w/ their DL against Brady.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I was rooting for the 1972 Dolphins.
I don’t want anybody but the Packers to break that record.
Putting you on the spot, here, Wiedmann.
Would you root for the Patriots to stop an undefeated Bares or Vikings team in the Super Bowl?
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Wow, that's a toughie
I think I’d root for the Patriots over the Vikings, but not the Bears. Gotta keep them 0-whatever. I respect the Bears; the same cannot be said about the other two teams.
Actually, I think the ‘72 Dolphins are not that great. Look at their regular season schedule, it really wasn’t that tough. The best record of the team they faced? 8-6, just barely mediocre. I added up all the records of the teams they faced that season at some point, I think it averaged out to worse than playing a 6-10 team every week.
13.
If Belichick was no longer the coach...
..I’d root for the Patriots over the Bears too, probably. Though we’ll never know; neither the Vikings or Bears are going undefeated any time soon.
13.
That is a FACT!!!
neither the Vikings or Bears are going undefeated any time soon.
for which reason, I thought about including the word hypothetically in the question.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
I don't think he would have scored,
Unless everyone else fell over on the catch. So game tying FG, first overtime Super Bowl.
But if you remember the Miami game, he made two catches that were in an almost identical situation coverage wise. he even got behind the defense on the first bomb, but didn’t want to jump for it. PI is almost certainly out of the equation, and the WR is never going to be called for it…
Oh well. We’ll just have to score 100 against you guys this year.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
I haven't heard anybody
talk about them as surefire elite QBs; only that they have looked good so far, and appear to be on their way.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Stafford.
I don’t think Stafford is anything near a franchise QB, yet. He could become one if he can stay on the field. If he stays healthy, they are still a year from contending w/ the Packers for the NFCN. Still probably another year beyond that to contend for a SB. Thats even being an optimist for the lions, IMO.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
I'll wait until the preseason
Pats play the Lions in the third preseason game, so Stafford will likely get a lot of game time. It’ll be my first good look at him, since the Pats played the second-string QB Shaun Hill last year (who was actually okay-looking when he played).
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Jul 23, 2011 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
What needs to be done in NY?
Ouch, hopefully Smith will bounce back for you, because he’s a very underrated WR in this league.
So, what do you feel is keeping the Giants passing game from going from “alright” to deadly? Does Eli need to pick up his game? Are the WR’s just not living up to their potential? Is your GM missing on some picks?
In all honesty, none of us are truly familiar with the Giants offense. Eli seems to throw the ball pretty much anywhere on the field, but it certainly doesn’t help when the WR’s are running the wrong routes.
I ran out of quotes.....
Going from alright to deadly:
QB: Eli is a great QB, capable of carrying the offense some weeks, just not every week like I think your guy can. Most people rank him in the 7-13 range within the league. He has progressed every season under center, and never misses a snap.
He is 30, so I think his upside is limited, not much more progression from him, which is fine with me. I already know he can do what ultimately, IMO, is how you truly evaluate a QB. And that is: can he take his team down the field, with the championship on the line, and put his team in the end zone.
He’ll give us more of the same as last year: 4,000 + yards, 25 + TD’s, and more INT’s than I would like, though not the aberration that was last years total (25).
WR, we are very very well off here.
- Hakeem Nicks. You may not be too familiar with the second year pro, but you will be. Michael Irvin comparisons. Last year: 13 games, 79 catches, 1,052 yards, 13.3 avg., 11 TD’s. He’s awesome.
- Mario Manningham: 3rd year guy, poor man’s DeSean Jackson. Progress every year. Last year: 16 games, 60 catches, 944 yards, 15.7 avg., 9 TD’s.
And then there is Smith. Possession receiver. Eli’s most trusted guy. 2009 pre-injury: 16 games, 107 catches, 1,220 yards, 11.4 avg., 7 TD’s.
Those are the big 3 and Eli makes these guys look good.
OL: RT and RG, two of the games best. C, 3 injuries last year and age concerns. LT was a big problem last year. Many blame several of Eli’s INT’s on a revolving door there. 3rd year 2nd round pick Beatty should win the LT job this year. LG there are several possibilities due to age and injury last year.
Ahmad Bradshaw graded the best pass blocking RB in the NFL by PFF.
In a nutshell? The Giants offense is deadly at times but usually not against the best defenses with any consistency. We need to solidify the Oline, and Eli can’t throw 25 picks.
Just get it done already...
Giants
Eli is maxed out. He is what he is at this stage of his career. Few too many INT’s, maybe he can cut that down which would help alot. Nicks is a great WR. At the risk of pissing off all Packer fans, I would trade Jennings for him right now if I could! Don’t think much of Manningham, reminds me of Steve Breaston. Good #3 WR, but not a 2nd WR. Smith and Nicks is a really good duo if Smith can get back to himself after surgery. I wouldn’t trust Beatty at LT… thats inviting alof of hits on Eli, maybe he’ll still get alot better, but I haven’t seen it yet.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You may be right about 'Ham being a #3.
To his credit, though, when the Giants were without Smith or Nicks (3 total games), he did fill in nicely as the featured guy. Agreed he is certainly not a #1, but his skill set fits in nicely as the burner to Smith’s being the possession reciever and Nicks being the all around stud.
In his first game as the #1 @ WAS he only caught 2 balls for 36 yards. Nice 18 yard avg., though. And in this game we didn’t need big production from him because we pounded the LOLSkins with 197 yards rushing.
In his second game as the #1 vs. JAX, 3 catches for 61 yards, 20.3 avg. and a TD.
In the win vs. WAS he caught 4 balls, 101 yards, and 1 TD.
Not too shabby for a #3 receiver being forced into the #1 spot. Add to the fact that we had to sign not one, but TWO guys who were not on anyone’s roster to play the other 2 WR spots and I saw enough to be impressed.
Just get it done already...
IMHO you guys need a running game and better secondary play.
Eli has proven he can win it, but not as the primary offensive focus. If teams can stop the run against you and focus on Eli, he hasn’t proven he can do it. But if there’s enough running game so that the D can’t sell out against the pass, then Eli can carve a defense, specially if there’s a comfort receiver to go to, like Buress. I think Nicks can be that guy, but, again, too young, not the best route runner. Steve Smith makes things a lot easier.
And your secondary is just not very good. Maybe Amukamara will change things, but even in your magical 2007 run, you guys didn’t have a good secondary. What you did have is by far the best DL in the last 10 or so years. But without that freak Micahel Strahan, you can’t get to the QB in 1.5 seconds every single play, so you need your secondary hold up. I honestly don’t see a single good CB on your roster (again, Amukamara may change things) and your safeties are overrated (though haven’t seen a lot from Kenny Phillips).
If you guys can achieve that, I think you’re perennial contenders for the super bowl.
Oh, and stop fumbling in key situations.
"IT IS TIME"
Giants need a running game?
As a teams the Giants are one of the better running teams in the NFL. Ranking #6 in rushing yards last season. Bradshaw ran for 1250 yards and Jacobs well over 800. You want good rushing average? Jacobs 5.6 and Bradford 4.5.. Have you been watching the giants at all? There secondary is probably more talented now that it was when they won the SB.
Tuck and Umenyiora each had 11.5 sacks last year. Pirre Paul had like 6.5… The giants build their D around the DL and getting to the QB.
I don’t know why they didn’t do more last year, but they had a good season. Adding Prince should help the secondary even more.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Look at the games they lost, in all of them, they weren’t able to run the ball effectively. Sure, Bradshaw got off some big runs, but overall, they weren’t able. They got a lot of those stats from rushing against Washington.
In those games, they weren’t able to run 25+ times. It’s not about the running backs, it’s about the OL, which struggled.
As far as the DL, it’s not just sacks. Their DL is very good, but the 2007 DL was so dominant it made up for the secondary, because more than their outside players getting sacks, their inside players where generating pressure, which didn’t happen this year with the same frequency. That 2007 secondary wasn’t good, and this one isn’t either. When your best player is Terrell Thomas, you have a problem.
"IT IS TIME"
Giants
Don’t play much man coverage. They play mostly zone. So they shouldn’t even need a top end defensive backfield. Their OL struggled but still allowed Jacobs to average 5.6 per carry and Bradshaw 4.5 and Manning to throw for 4000? Not saying its a great OL eiher, but those numbers are outstanding.
Are you sure it was a matter of not being able to run 25 times… Or did they chose not to run in those games due to matchups? They had 10 wins were the 6th ranked rushing team and Manning threw for 4000 yds. There biggest problem was turnovers! Plain and simple.. Manning 25 INT’s and Bradshaw fumbled 9 times, Jacobs 2 and Manning 7 more… Thats 43 turnovers by the 3 players who handled the ball the most. Turnovers still determine more games than anything else. So if you average almost 3 per game, your usually not going to win too much. That they won 10 games is pretty amazing!
Nothing wrong w/ their QB presssure, DB play or running game, that not turning the ball over doesn’t fix!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Don’t play much man coverage. They play mostly zone. So they shouldn’t even need a top end defensive backfield.
So, when you play zone, you don’t need good CBs? Because a good CB is measured by how he covers man to man? Ever heard of missed assignment? It’s not easy to play zone, it requires skills, it requires intelligence, understandings of the offense, you need to know what routes the opposing receivers are gonna run, you need proper technique on positioning and breaking the ball.
They don’t have a good secondary. Back in 07, they could do with Corey Webster bumping the receivers, because he didn’t have to hold on for long till the DL got home. Not the case now. Not to mention that when teams play the Giants now, they utilize more screens and draws to counter the way the DL plays (not much containment, consistant gap penetration).
I do agree with the turnover being the biggest problem, but much often in 07 they ran the ball to kill the clock and help their D, which is achieved by running the ball a lot.
Be it due to struggle or poor choice, the fact is the games they lost they didn’t run the ball much.
"IT IS TIME"
NO
Zone CB are easier to find than CB that excel in man coverage! All you have to do in zone is watch the QB’s eyes. You don’t need instincts to know when to look for the ball, don’t really even need as good of ball skills since you see the ball all the way, so its easier to catch. You don’t need to be as good athletically either. And D takes some intelligence. Everything in zone happens in front of you. You see EVERYTHING happening and react to it.
The Giants averaged 4.6 ypc, there was nothing wrong w/ the running game. Alot of teams if they get down early in games (like due to turnovers!) give up on the run almost entirely in the 2nd half. Again turnovers is what killed them last season, nothing else.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
by Strohman on Jul 22, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow. This is so ridiculous I’m actually rec’ing it.
The best part?
All you have to do in zone is watch the QB’s eyes
"IT IS TIME"
Between the two of you,
you got everything right! And in simple terms, TO’s did kill us. Part of the miracle of leading the league in TO’s and winning 10 games is the fact that the Giants also led the league in takeaways.
About two years agoI read that whoever wins the TO battle is the single greatest statistical indicator of who will win a game in the NFL. 80something % of the time the winner wins the TO battle.
Team with the most rushing attempts was the second best stat percentage-wise to see who won, sacks was third.
Just get it done already...
Turnovers
Have historically been the single biggest determining factor in games. Its been proven year in and year out. I have a hard time believing you couldn’t run the ball at least effectively if the game was close? My entire case is made on that fact. Eli and his INT’s and Bradshaw and Eli in fumbles killed you last year, IMO.
I never found zone coverage to very difficult to play. MOstly its about reading the QB cues. Follow his eyes and he’ll lead you to the ball more often than not!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Don't forget Eli and his fumbles.
Got sacked 16 times, but fumbled 7 times and lost 5 of them. Yucky.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
"If you don't tell him what he wants to hear, he's going to find you out. And when he does, they're going to tear your head off and throw your BODY OUT OF AN AIRLOCK!" - Number Six, "Bastille Day"
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Jul 22, 2011 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I mentioned that
in another article I guess. They had 40+ turnovers between Eli, Bradshaw and Jacobs last year. No team can win w/ that! Its amazing they had 10 wins if you ask me!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
2 games against a dysfunctional Washington team
one game against a Chicago team that they COMPLETELY annihilated on defense, two games against a bad Dallas team…well, that’s 4 of their 10 wins; Dallas beat the Giants IN New York after dropping the first game in Dallas.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
"If you don't tell him what he wants to hear, he's going to find you out. And when he does, they're going to tear your head off and throw your BODY OUT OF AN AIRLOCK!" - Number Six, "Bastille Day"
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Jul 23, 2011 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions
On zone coverage I agree. It is easy to play.
For you and I this is obvious. Trouble is, when our best corner, Corey Webster, has press coverage skills. I hope second year DC Fewell will adapt his system some to play a little more press this year.
Just get it done already...
CB
If Webster is good in press and you now have Amukamara will the giants start playing more press coverage? THe CB seem to be well suited for it, moreso than zone.
I’m no expert on the giants, but am I correct that they play mostly zone?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Zone, yes.
Fewell likes to play what amounts to a Tampa 2 with the shell coverage over the top. Zone coverage except for in the slot, of course.
He also likes LB/S hybrid type players so he can use a 3 safety package as a base D most of the time. With the four down lineman and two LB’s.
It was a good D for the most part last year, but Rolle was in the box or at the line of scrimmage too much for many peoples liking. He also was asked to do way too much IMO. Especially when we had Kenny Phillips still getting his knee right after a whole year off. He was like 20-25 yards off the line of scrimmage most plays and did not have the ball hawking skills he had pre-injury.
I have been screaming for more press coverage because that was what CWeb does best, as well as Amuk. But if it is to happen, Fewell will be changing his ways. Which may not be a bad thing. Ya know, adapt to your players strengths.
Just get it done already...
This is what Capers is Great at...
adapt to your players strengths.
Really any Coordinator (offense or defense) that is good at his job, has to adjust his scheme to fit the players strengths. If you force the players to adapt to your D, its essentially putting square pegs in round holes. Just isn’t a good way to coordinate anything!
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Exactly
Thats why I am still reserving judgement on my new DC. Alot of good last year, but enough bad for me to worry.
Which may be a moot point anyway because many see him as an HC very soon. Which I would assume is predicated on success with the Giants. So if he (we) has said success, my Giants may be looking at their 4th DC in 5 years come 2012. Yikes.
Just get it done already...
Wow
4th DC in 5 years come 2012
That would suck! Continuity in the coaching staff is a rather big determinant of a teams success. Good luck if that happens, it would be difficult to overcome.
Of the DC’s you have had, do they all run the same defensive scheme?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Giants DC's
Coughlin came in 2004 and had Tim Lewis from 2004-2006. He had a read and react defense utilizing mostly zone coverage with mediocre success.
2007-2008, Steve Steve Spagnulo employed an attacking style defense with mostly press coverage. He learned from Jimmy Johnson in Philly as their LB coach. Lots of success. Spags moves on to St. Louis.
2009 Bill Sheridan, LB coach under Spags. Similiar scheme to Spags but he had problems with organizational and player motivational issues. Fired after 2009. I blame Coughlin for a poor hire.
2010 Perry Fewell from Buffalo. Esentially a Tampa 2 defense with his own attacking style with the 3 safety base D. Another head coaching prospect who may leave.
So circumstance has dictated the turn-over to some degree. Also, the Giants believe in helping coaches get promoted, even if it means moving on. They provide staff for coaches to use to put together tape of other teams. And basically help them to interview for other HCing jobs to an unprecedented degree.
Just get it done already...
A lot of Packers fans (myself included) were questioning Capers after the 09 season, particularly after the Cardinals game. There were many instances where Capers, after he threw the sink at a QB and said QB countered the blitz, just rushed 3 man, in a sort of a prevent defense, many times utilizing Matthews in coverage rather than in the rush. I still contend that was a mistake.
But, alas, what we saw last year was a magician, nothing short of it. He had the PERFECT gameplan for every single opponent we faced. If we played an immobile QB, he mixed up coverages, but never got too conservative, and always played for disruption and gap penetration.
But when playing a mobile QB, like Vick or Roethlisberger, he instead played sound coverage and gap containment, never allowing any of his players to simply rush the passer, yet push the OL towards the QB, and almost always keeping a spy on the QB.
Suffice to say, we led the league in opposing QB rating, and the same Roethlisberger that had killed our D for 35+ points and 500 yards the year before, managed only 3 points while we still had our starting corner (Woodson) and nickel corner (Shields) (though Woodson plays the nickel position).
So, what I’m saying is, really smart coaches adapt fast, and usually their playbook requires more than one season for the players to fully grasp it. There’s a big chance that Capers was FORCED to play consrvatively like he did in 09, because his players wouldn’t be able to execute something more complicated without even more disastruous results.
"IT IS TIME"
Speak for yourself..
I never questioned Capers after 09. In fact I don’t remember anyone that really did. It seems to me everyone was very happy w/ how he turned a middle of the road 43 D into a top 5 34 D. We weren’t happy w/ the way the season ended in AZ, no doubt, but I can’t recall anyone seriously questioning Capers in the least.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/capers-is-the-key-to-a-super-bowl-run
Just because you didn’t question him and don’t remember doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
I am speaking for myself, but I’m also talking about something that DID happen. Capers WAS questioned. Nobody asked for his head, and I NEVER said anyone did. But he was questioned.
"IT IS TIME"
And we're saying speak for yourself not others as this indicates
A lot of Packers fans (myself included) were questioning Capers after the 09 season,
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
You beat me to that one, lol.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Not me.
A lot of Packers fans (myself included) were questioning Capers after the 09 season, particularly after the Cardinals game.
Through the second half of that season, and beyond, I continued to believe in what I said in the day-after game thread following the 17-7 win over Dallas that year, which, just to refresh your memory had come on the heels of an embarrassing loss to a previously winless Tampa Bay squad.
After another fan had said, in the course of making his observations about the game, “The 3-4 does work!”, I replied,
When the switch to the 3-4 was made, we all expected growing pains.That turned out to be every bit as prophetic as I could possibly have hoped!
The conventional wisdom was that it might take Capers until the second half of the schedule or, possibly, his second season to do with the Packers’ D what he has done every place he has installed his version of the 3-4 during his NFL coaching career – turn it into a top-10, or better, defense.
Then, the Packers’ stellar performance (against vanilla schemes) during the pre-season made many believe that the Packers had adapted to the system and made the transition more quickly than we had dared hope.
Now, the pre-season performance has been exposed as an illusion and, you know what?
The Packers have merely undergone the growing pains that we naturally expected in the first place.
Hopefully, it is, indeed, just part of the journey to the same results that Capers has achieved in the past.
At this point, there really is no reason to think otherwise.
Also, hopefully, that will happen sooner than later.
So, no, don’t include me among those who you say were “questioning Capers after the 09 season.”
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
*meant
the day-after game story, not thread. :)
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
There was a good reason for that,
But, alas, what we saw last year was a magician, nothing short of it.
and you touched on it, in a very simplified way, in your final paragraph.
usually their playbook requires more than one season for the players to fully grasp it.FTFY
Capers D requires more than one season for the coaches to fully install it.It is a very complex defense, and there are aspects of it that the players can’t even be taught, or that cannot be utilized, until the players have spent a season getting a firm grasp on what they were taught in year one.
Only then can they even hope to fully comprehend, and properly execute, what they are taught in year two “without even more disastrous results.”
Understanding this is another reason why I wasn’t questioning Capers after the 09 season,
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
The little I've seen from Steve Smith
He’s gonna be a great WR in the league if he stays healthy. He reminds me so much of Wes Welker and Hines Ward, guys that aren’t physically gifted but are so savvy and reliable that they consistantly carve defenses. But IF he stays healthy.
"IT IS TIME"
I like the info
BUT I CANNOT BELIEVE you don’t remember the abuse Al Harris took from Plax in NFC Championship game via the back-shoulder fade! He had 11 catches, with at least 4 back-shoulder fades. They are in Kevin Gilbride’s offense and Eli throws them to Nicks, Manningham, and Smith. So easy on the moron talk. If you feel like it, see my comments to Strohman above ^^
Just get it done already...
I think that game spelled the end for Harris in GB....
he did get abused….. of course they could have given him help and didn’t.
In Every Climb and Place....
by PhoenicianPakFan on Jul 21, 2011 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I would say your exaggerating here.
Yes the offense in complex, Rodgers IMO, doesn’t call out the protections. I think Wells does that. As for audibles, Rodgers usually goes to the LOS w/ a play call and depending on how many are in the box has an auto-check to change from either a run to pass or vise versa. I think the amount that he audibles beyond that is fairly minimal. Back shoulder throws aren’t seperate play calls, they are a matter of throwing the reciever open more than anything else.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Yeah, I found it awkward describing a back shoulder fade like that. A route is expected, and based on coverage, a QB and a WR will know that that will be where the throw is. Agreed?
Just get it done already...
Yes
But, like you said, it’s dependent of coverage. It’s not set before the play that there will be a backshoulder throw so that the receiver won’t stack the CB, instead play wide and adjust after a certain yardage. Of course, not every play has that option, it’s just some plays. I’m just probably having a hard time getting out what I want to say… But it’s not that the QB and WR will know, sometimes the QB recognizes it and the receiver don’t or vice versa, it requires A LOT of timing.
And Rodgers does call the protections. In fact, he failed to do so in 09 against the Bears, and it resulted in a safety by the safety. Though he has shared responsabilities with Wells.
And as far as playcall, again, maybe I’m not being clear to what I want to say, but IIRC it’s not just run or pass checkdowns, IIRC he has the option of the designed play, of a run checkdown, and a different passing play, usually out of shotgun. And I would love if MM also allowed for a screen checkdown. Maybe he does, but I’ve never seen Rodgers audible and the play be a screen. In fact, McCarthy hates screens for some reason…
"IT IS TIME"
Backshoulder throws
don’t require great timing. Its a throw based on coverage. If the coverage is trailing the WR then the throw goes over the top. If his next to the WR, then the throw goes to the back shoulder. Against zone, you don’t see backshoulder throws cuz the defenders are facing the QB. The backshould throw happens in man coverage when the defender is right in stride w/ the WR. The QB throws the WR open cuz the WR knows when the ball is coming and is looking, he can stop his route as soon as he sees the ball in the air and the defender can’t react quickly enough. Its nothing more than a throw based on coverage to allow the WR to make a play on the ball. Its actually one of the easiest and safest passes in the game. Thrown away from the defender and doesn’t give him time to react. Doesn’t require great timing…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
It’s not really. Like Stroh said, it’s just dictated by coverage. Anytime you see the CB in man against your WR, and his back is to you, you simply throw it back shoulder (and they’re pretty easy throws yardage wise). You do need to have a good rhythm with your receivers to do it though, which can take some time.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Jul 23, 2011 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions
You need PERFECT rythm
Not good rythm.
First of all, he’s not facing the receiver, so he has no idea when the ball is going to be thrown. He doesn’t make any move like in the comeback, and there’s no predefined yardage for him to turn, because he needs to play the CB, the CB needs to turn his hips for the QB to be able to make the throw.
If the CB isn’t in perfect position, and if the ball goes a little bit to the inside, it’s an easy int. Chances of this throw go horribly wrong are big, so it’s one of the hardest throws to make. Not placing the ball, that’s somewhat easy (depending on the depth the WR has taken). But the sync is extremely hard to get.
If it’s an unstoppable throw, and it’s so easy, why don’t they make it all the time?
"IT IS TIME"
Has no idea?
he’s not facing the receiver, so he has no idea when the ball is going to be thrown.
It’s what they practice for!
Among other things, they work on timing.
So, yes, he does know “when the ball is going to be thrown.”
Perfect rhythm
What was that Vince Lombardi said about chasing perfection and catching excellence, again?
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
North Starr! You just mentioned one of my favorite sayings!
I tell my kids all the time to study people from all walks of life who have achieved greatness. And I love to quote successful individuals. I have mentioned that quote to them and many other people I come into contact with.
I’m not sure if I have it right, but the way I say it is: “If you strive for perfection, you will achieve excellence.” One of my favorite quotes from the 20th century.
Just get it done already...
The actual quote:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
my dad taught me
make it perfect. if you try for good enough and fuck it up it’s gonna look like shit. if you try to make it perfect and fuck it up at least it will look good enough
If they're not in sync, they don't know
That’s exactly my point! It’s hard because it requires a lot of chemistry and practice.
And yes, we all love Lombardi’s quotes (though some were altered over the years). Personal favorite?
“It’s not whether you get knocked down. It’s whether you get up.” That is so true on so many levels, I never once met a human being that never failed, and failed big, in his life.
"IT IS TIME"
When I said,
It’s what they practice for!
Among other things, they work on timing.
So, yes, he does know "when the ball is going to be thrown."
it had nothing to do with whether the throw is hard or easy; it was a direct response to you saying that the receiver “has no idea when the ball is going to be thrown.”Then, above, you said
If they’re not in sync, they don’t knowAfter all of the work they do on their timing, during the offseason, training camp and preseason, they had damned well better be in sync, and the receiver, on any given play, had damned well better know when that throw is coming, if it is coming to him.
So, your statement that the receiver doesn’t know when the throw is coming, as support for your argument that the backshoulder throw is a difficult play, is wrong.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
the reciever doesn’t know if the pass is coming, if it’s to him, or another reciever, or a sack, so how in the hell would he know when it’s coming
He doesn't know IF it's coming,
but he knows when it is coming if it is.
He knows when to be expecting it.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
And, you are mistaken, as well,
if you think that I mentioned that Lombardi quote just because it is one of my “personal favorites.”
It was a response to you saying
You need PERFECT rythm [your caps lock (and misspelling), not mine]Since, as Mr. Lombardi said, “Perfection is not attainable,” you need good (excellent) rhythm, not PERFECT rhythm.
Not good rythm.
Your last two paragraphs, concerning your “personal favorite” Lombardi quote, and the quote, itself, had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion!
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Nothing you said had anything to do with the discussion for that matter.
The discussion was about whether it’s hard or easy to make the backshoulder throw. You decided to nitpick some of my words and sentences.And I wasn’t discussing anything with you. Not everything is a discussion, believe it or not.
"IT IS TIME"
Not true.
Nothing you said had anything to do with the discussion for that matter.
The discussion was about whether it’s hard or easy to make the backshoulder throw. You decided to nitpick some of my words and sentences.
packallday555 said
You do need to have a good rhythm with your receivers to do it thoughand you argued that with
You need PERFECT rythmso, I used my reference to what Lombardi said to back up what pad said, because he was right and you were wrong.
Not good rythm.
Completely relevant to the discussion, and not just picking nits.
Not everything is a discussion, believe it or not.
Don’t tempt me.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Because teams don’t always play man coverage, and some CB’s do a better job getting their heads around then others. Like I said, it takes good rhythm to be able to make the throw. Not every QB has that with his WR’s. But if you watch a Colts game or Saints game, it’s a throw you’ll see both Manning and Brees make a fair amount.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Funny enough
Here’s a play to exemplify what I said, ran by you guys (I admit I blocked it completely).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1aKcDryH4Y
Eli sees that Nicks is facing his way and throws the ball in the right spot, with the CB’s hips turned. I’m not sure about the Giants, but if it’s a Packer play, it doesn’t go necessarily like this.
The WR won’t turn if the CB gets beaten, instead he’ll run the go. There has been occasions (WAS game) where Rodgers though he saw one thing and threw the backshoulder throw, but the receiver thought he had beaten the CB (Jordy Nelson IIRC) so he ran a go. It’s a split-second decision. And the CB will be very near the throw.
"IT IS TIME"
So its like I said...
If the CB is in a trail position, the QB goes over the top. But if the CB is step for step, right next to the WR, its perfect situation for a the back shoulder throw. LOL
I’ve seen Rodgers make exactly that throw to Jones (and other Packer WR) many times. That is a pretty easy throw to make. The WR runs about 15 yds looks for the ball and adjusts his route accordingly. No great timing needed.
Its purely a matter of throwing the WR open depending on where the CB is playing.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
So then why did you say
by PackersRS on Jul 21, 2011 1:32 PM PDT
but we actually employ the backshoulder throw a lot, something they don’t do, and that is the most complex throw in football, requiring perfect timing with the receivers, and it is a read throw, it’s built-in.
On one hand your saying its the most complex throw and now its that easy and great timing isn’t necessary?
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Really your the one arguing something on almost every thread going right now.
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
First of all, what’s the point? The point is not that you are arguing a lot. It’s that it’s extremely hard to argue with you, because you’re not interested in making a point, you’re interested in winning arguments and being the loudest one. You even change your points and make shit up just to win it. You had never mentioned anything about CB position regarding the backshoulder throw, then you said that you did.
And regarding arguing a lot:
http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2011/7/15/2277901/nfc-north-short-term-predictions
I would point specifically which post you are arguing a lot, and actually personally attacking others, but there are just so many that it would take too long.
"IT IS TIME"
by PackersRS on Jul 24, 2011 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
you’re not interested in making a point,
Thats all I try to do. I’m not stupid enough to believe I’m going to change your mind (and therefore “win” an argument). I say my piece and will discuss anything as long as someone else keeps debating it.
Takes 2 to argue and you seem to be in all of them now arent’ you?…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Man, you got THAT right!
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Its purely a matter of throwing the WR open depending on where the CB is playing.
It really is. It used to be my favorite to make back in my playing days. I mean, PackersRS is right in saying that it takes rhythm with your WR, but once you have that it really is a pretty easy throw and read concept.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
You make it sound easy to decide whether the CB is in trail position or facing the QB. It might be playing backyard football. In the NFL, with the rush coming your way, it’s a matter of split second. Decide one second too early and it’s a pick, possibly a pick 6. Decide 1 second too late and it’s a sack.
"IT IS TIME"
Haha well I’m not talking about backyard football when I reference my playing days but it certainly wasn’t the NFL either.
Yes, you have to make sure you throw it as sure as you see him face guarding the receiver, which really isn’t that hard. Unless the CB sees it come out of your hand, he’s probably not going to pick it (and he definitely won’t when it’s an NFL caliber QB throwing it). Like Strohman said up above, it’s one of the safest throws in the game because it’s all dependent on coverage, and the particular QB’s ability to throw his receiver open. Usually the worst thing that comes from a bad back shoulder throw is the QB sailing one out of bounds about 10 ft behind the WR. As long as the QB is only throwing it when it’s there, it’s almost impossible for him to throw a pick.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2011 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions
As long as the QB is only throwing it when it’s there, it’s almost impossible for him to throw a pick.
Right, but if he throws when it’s not there, it’s a surefire pick. And if he takes too long to see the CB, it’s a sack. That’s what I’m saying.
"IT IS TIME"
If the throw is not there why make the throw?
You make the throw to a spot the WR is going to be open. Again its called throwing the reciever open. And its pretty easy to see where the CB is in relation to the WR. The CB can’t really cover the over the top throw and the backshoulder both at the same time…
You've been Stroh'd™!!!
Hey North Starr,
this thread started out pretty slow, but look at it now.
Just get it done already...
I'm flabbergasted
186 comments (including this one), even if they aren’t all on topic, haha.
And, to answer your question:
Yes, I’d have to say that it is, more or less, the common belief that Philbin/McCarthy’s offense is complicated. :)
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
Sort of turned in to a discussion on offenses around the NFL.
For the most part.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
For the most part, :)
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
I learn a lot visiting the other teams' sites.
Thanks for stopping by.
"It's a great day to be great, baby!"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet,
and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
You call that job satisfaction?
'Cause, I don't."
The Munsters of the Midway still suck!
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