Top Five Quarterback Analysis
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 4:49 PM CST
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(Posted the following over at BBV. I am interested in hearing what you folks have to say, so have at it)
With the upcoming game against Green Bay, we get an opportunity to see two of the league's top five (at least, in this homer's opinion) quarterbacks take the field. My top five are (not in any particular order):
1) Tom Brady
4) Drew Brees
5) Eli Manning
Matthew Stafford is not on the list. With him, I withhold judgment until we see a greater body of work. He had an incredible season undoubtedly. However, the top five (in my mind) requires some sort of playoff resume. All five quarterbacks listed have a least one ring, and all five listed are in contention to win another this year. Peyton Manning is not active currently, so he has also been omitted.
Yards per game / Completion Percentage / Yards per attempt
Drew Brees (342 / 71.2% / 8.3)
Tom Brady (327 / 65.6%/ 8.6)
Aaron Rodgers (310 / 68.3% / 9.2)
Eli Manning (308 / 61% / 8.4)
Ben Roethlisberger (272 / 63.2% / 7.9)
Drew Brees dominates the league in completion percentage and yards per game. The one area of interest, however, is his YPA, which is lower than three out of the other four quarterbacks in question (Brady, Rodgers, Manning). On that note, what has impressed me most about Rodgers is that his YPA is on par with Peyton Manning in his 2004 record breaking season. To put that in perspective, the only player in recent history to exceed that wasKurt Warner in 2000 (9.9).
For fun, we will give all quarterbacks 657 attempts (what Brees had) and see where that takes us.
Drew Brees (on 657 attempts): 5,476 yards, 46 touchdowns, 14 interceptions
Tom Brady (611 attempts) : 5,235 yards (5,650), 39 touchdowns (42), 12 interceptions (13)
Aaron Rodgers (502 attempts): 4,643 yards (6,044), 45 touchdowns (59), 6 interceptions (8)
Eli Manning (589 attempts: 4,933 yards (5,518), 29 touchdowns (33), 16 interceptions (18)
Ben Roethlisberger (513 attempts): 4,077 yards (5,190), 21 touchdowns (27), 14 interceptions (18)
First, let me start by saying this is not to diminish what Drew Brees did this season. Part of the reason he threw the ball so many times is because his completion percentage is off the charts. Logically, when completing a higher percentage of passes, drives are more easily sustained, and thus, one can have a higher number of attempts.
However, what it does for me, is give an interesting look at the elite passers of today. For starters, one can see how a pass heavy league has led to the unreasonable numbers put up by so many different quarterbacks. And we didn't even factor Stafford in.
Rodgers stat line, on these terms, is ridiculous. It's hard to say that he would sustain such efficiency over another 155 attempts, but one can imagine that the drop-off (if any) would not be too drastic.
Just looking at the numbers, one can assume certain things without watching a single game:
1) Say what you want about what's around him, Rodgers has been a hallmark of efficiency this season.
2) While Brees seems to pile up more yards by completing higher percentage throws, Rodgers completes deep passes like good quarterbacks complete short and intermediate throws.
3) Tom Brady is still Tom Brady.
4) Eli Manning can throw a deep ball with the best of them. His completion percentage is the lowest of the five quarterbacks in question, yet his YPA still ranks third on the list, meaning that he is living (and dying) by the deep pass this season.
5) Roethlisberger has played extremely well despite injury. Not mentioned (up to this point) is the fact that Big Ben has been hurt a great deal this season. To his credit, he has still put up quality numbers despite that, while keeping interceptions per attempt comparable to other top quarterbacks not named Aaron Rodgers.
What is clutch?
Because football is a team game, one might find it difficult to measure exactly how clutch a quarterback is. A quarterback that is dominating games from start to finish will not have many fourth quarter comebacks. So, to look at a couple of different areas in hopes of getting some discussion going on this, I present the following:
Behind (1-8 points):
Drew Brees: 1,349 yards (72.8%) 8.9 YPA with 11 touchdowns, 4 interceptions
Tom Brady: 987 yards (55.2%) 8.5 YPA with 5 touchdowns, 1 interception
Aaron Rodgers: 828 yards (60%) 9.2 YPA with 9 touchdowns, 0 interceptions
Eli Manning: 1,983 yards (60.3%) 8.5 YPA with 15 touchdowns, 5 interceptions
Ben Roethlisberger: 904 yards (55.2%) 7.1 YPA with 4 touchdowns, 4 interceptions
Behind (9-16 points):
Drew Brees: 713 yards (63.4%) 8.7 YPA with 4 touchdowns, 3 interceptions
Tom Brady: 386 yards (72.1%) 6.3 YPA with 5 touchdowns, 0 interceptions
Aaron Rodgers: 265 yards (78.6%) 9.5 YPA with 0 touchdowns, 0 interceptions
Eli Manning: 583 yards (65.7%) 8.3 YPA with 5 touchdowns, 3 interceptions
Ben Roethlisberger: 422 yards (62%) 8.4 YPA with 1 touchdown, 0 interceptions
This sort of comparison makes definitive statements a tough task. Eli Manning has a much greater body of work than say, Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, because the Giants have trailed their opponents more often this season. What we can look at is change in efficiency and make some points based on that.
Quarterback Rating (Ahead / Tied / Behind):
Drew Brees: (114.4 / 117.7 / 106.9)
Tom Brady: (107.9/ 99.0 / 106.5)
Aaron Rodgers: (122.4 / 128.6 / 119.8)
Eli Manning: (94.6 / 78.0 / 101.2)
Ben Roethlisberger: (99.6 / 96.9 / 73.2)
One can look at these numbers and assess that all of these quarterbacks are clutch. Ben Roethlisberger is the only one with bad numbers when playing from behind, but playing well with the score ties is indicative of an ability to handle pressure as well. I found it strange that Manning's rating is down in tied games, but it does point to frustrations I've had with play calling and the inability to get the offense going early on. This Giants offense stalls quite a bit at times, whereas the Saints, Patriots, and Packers are juggernauts that simply don't seem to waste any opportunities they are given.
Fourth Quarter Comebacks vs. Game-Winning Drives (2008-2011):
Drew Brees: 11 vs.15
Ben Roethlisberger: 9 vs. 11
Eli Manning: 8 vs. 12
Tom Brady: 4 vs. 6*
Aaron Rodgers: 3 vs. 5
* Tom Brady missed the entire 2008 season due to injury
I used a sample from 2008-2011 as 2008 marked Rodgers first season as a starter. To me, over this stretch, I find it surprising that Rodgers has very few comebacks and game-winners, given the numbers he's posted and the fact that the Packers' offense has essentially been the same. Yes, there is the argument that he has much fewer because he has not played without a lead much of this season.
However, the Packers posted 27-21 record from 2008-2010, so the opportunities were there.
What is certain is that Rodgers has been lights out in any situation this season. If he continues to play like this in years to come, nobody will care about his lack of comeback victories. Not many people give it much thought right now.
So, anyhow, just putting out some a smorgasbord of stats for you guys to consume, regurgitate, and fight over as we look forward to Sunday's game.
One thing I will say is that no matter what the stats say, Eli Manning is the best interception machine in the history of the game.
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If you could...
I like the analysis btw. I wouldn’t mind seeing the next tier of QBs. To see if those guys are even worthy and should bump someone out.
Idk who you would personally deem worthy, but maybe guys like Stafford, Rivers, Romo, Ryan as suggestions.
That dog just won't hunt.
by Bush League All Star on Jan 12, 2012 5:17 PM CST reply actions
If I get the time to, I might
But after the top five conversation it gets a little bit hazy. I picked this group for a couple of reasons:
1) They all have a solid playoff resume (including a Super Bowl ring.
2) It’s easy to consider each on of these guys “top five”. They have the numbers to back it up. There’s always room for argument, but these guys are generally accepted as elite quarterbacks, so for the analysis, they work.
I understand some might not consider Eli top five. I do, but I am also a Giants fan. So, you could argue that I’m being a little bit of a homer there, but I do think there’s enough in the numbers to make a legitimate case for him.
When you start talking about other quarterbacks though, the playoff/Super Bowl question is important (in my opinion). This group here has won the last 7 of the last 8 Super Bowls collectively. As a group, these five quarterbacks have made 9 Super Bowl appearances in the last 8 years, which is pretty wild.
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
I think that Eli is a better choice than most
to make the top 5. There really haven’t been too many other QB’s this season that could be there.
I’d like to say Schaub, but he’s always injured. He’s a slightly older version of Stafford. Rivers has been way off the mark compared to the rest of his career. Romo, well he’s just…Romo. Ryan fails when it matters most. Smith is a QB who doesn’t get a lot of recognition this year. He’s been very effective in that offense, but honestly I think he’s the epitome of a “system QB”. I laughed at Eli when he said he was elite earlier this year, but at this point, it’s a valid argument to include him in the top 5.
But what I really want to know is…WHY NO TEBOW?? He just wins!
"The script doesn't change for us,… As long as we're taking care of things and keeping our focus on improving the quality of play, I don't think we can be beat. If you had asked me six years ago, I would have said the same damn thing. … We expect to win every time we take the field, and I would think that every team thinks the same thing." -Mike McCarthy
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 12, 2012 7:18 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know about that
Stafford has more of an arm than Eli for sure, but all he does is just chuck it up over everyone’s head to Johnson. Romo has his moments, but I’m just not sold on him.
"The script doesn't change for us,… As long as we're taking care of things and keeping our focus on improving the quality of play, I don't think we can be beat. If you had asked me six years ago, I would have said the same damn thing. … We expect to win every time we take the field, and I would think that every team thinks the same thing." -Mike McCarthy
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 12, 2012 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
give stafford 1-2 more seasons
He’s really only done it for 1 year. And his numbers (like brees) are a little inflated due to the dome effect.
As for Romo… c’mon. Let the guy win a playoff game before you anoint him a top 5 QB in the nfl.
I'm talking this season only
I would put Eli above those two for their careers, but below Rivers for his career.
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
If stafford can prove he isn't made of glass, then I'll give him more credit. He's missed 18 games
in 3 seasons. I might be one of the few that feels this way, but I think points need to be deducted if you keep getting injured. I know it ain’t your fault, but if you aren’t on the field, you aren’t helping your team.
I support the Giants like bras support Kim Kardashian's boobs. It can be a struggle, we've had some jiggles, but we're still firm.
by BigBlueIntervention on Jan 13, 2012 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I would put Rivers above Eli
the guy’s had one bad year. And it really wasn’t even the year, it was a stretch of about 5-6 games where he kept doing all the positive things he always does, but threw a ton of picks. After that stretch, he went right back to what he usually does.
Top 5 is still Brady, Brees, P. Manning, Rivers, and Rodgers.
if you take out P. Manning due to injury though, the next two, to me, would be Eli and Big Ben. Stafford still leans far too heavily on one player, and Romo has been consistently excellent in the regular season but lacks the overall team success, particularly in the playoffs.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
Maybe
but if you look at this year alone, Eli has it over Rivers. You can’t count Payton just for the fact that he hasn’t played this year. I mean, it’s kind of a BS excuse, but sadly, it’s the truth. If we were to go off last year, I could completely agree with your top 5, just not this year. If we do, then we’d also have to say that Tebow is better than Payton, because he’s actually played. It’s not saying he is better, just that he has better stats this year. That’s just my take on the situation.
Garage sales drive me insane. What is that? I don't know. One man's junk is another man's junk.
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 12, 2012 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
even this year, aside from that 5-6 week stretch of bad football, Rivers has been the better QB than Eli
he just plays on a much worse team overall.
As it is, even with the whole season considered, Rivers’ rating was only 4 points lower than Eli’s.
Couple that with the fact that Rivers has been waaaaayyyyyy better than Eli in every season besides this one, which IMO was an extreme aberration for Rivers, and I’d say he’s a better QB by a good margin.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
That's cool man
It’s your opinion, I’m not knocking you for it. That’s why I’m going off this year alone. To me, Rivers was definitely better than Eli last year. This year it’s reversed, but I won’t say it was head and shoulders above. You are right that Rivers doesn’t really have anyone to help him out though, and Eli does have a lot of weapons. Does that mean that we say that Rodgers’ numbers and ability to be in the top 5 qb conversation are skewered because of that? Nope, because then that would be pretty hypocritical and buying into what everyone other teams fans say about him (they’re just jealous they don’t have him, lol). One knock on Rivers though, is that he may be more of a fantasy stat QB. Sure, his stats may be better than Eli’s, but stats alone don’t give you wins or playoff berths. Eli has shown the ability to take it to the next level whereas Rivers hasn’t.
Garage sales drive me insane. What is that? I don't know. One man's junk is another man's junk.
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 13, 2012 12:49 AM CST up reply actions
wait what?
Robert and Matthews have close to 900 yds rec. Hence the high comp. % . Short dump.offs.
Gates (need I say more) then his giant size WRs. Jackson and Floyd .
Not to mention 1 game is the diff. In record.
Please let’s not act like Rivers don’t have people around him . Christ the dude had 2 HOF ers on his team.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
by Troy O on Jan 13, 2012 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Tolbert n Mathews
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
Tomlinson is long gone, and he had only had two good years when Rivers was starting
and those were Rivers’ two worst seasons.
Vincent Jackson and Antonio Gates missed a lot of time this year, but aside from those two he doesn’t have much around him.
you’re entitled to your opinion, but I think Rivers is easily a better quarterback than Eli, and his career numbers bear that out.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
You give him way too much cred.
While Eli is completing 40 yd. Passes Rivers has been dumping off 5 yarders to RBs and his HOF Te…
Also Eli has lost more players over his career to injuries then I care to remember.
Sunny SanDiago is kinda nice to play in.
If u wanna talk stats Rivers wins , if u wanna look a little past them ( wins the big game, 4 th Q. Greatness) its not close.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
Rivers is probably the best deep ball thrower in the league
not sure what you’re talking about with him only throwing five yard dump offs.
Watch him throw a deep route, there’s no better deep thrower in the game than Philip Rivers, and he does it despite having below average arm strength.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
Sorry but your a bit misinformed..
His WRs are all over 6-5 , So he just chucks down field to them Giants.and YES Sproles now Tolbert and Mathews get A ton of yds of the 5 ydrs passes
I watch many SD games (i have a vested interest)
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
agree to disagree
from what I’ve seen, he’s as good a downfield thrower as there is in the NFL
football does not build character, it reveals character.
+1
I think he throws the best deep ball as well.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Jan 14, 2012 12:11 AM CST up reply actions
Eli leads the league
In completions of 40+ yards (18).
Here’s how it goes:
1) Eli Manning (18)
2) Matthew Stafford (16)
3) Tom Brady (14)
4) Aaron Rodgers (13)
5) Drew Brees (11)
Carson Palmer had as many such completions as Drew Brees having only played in 10 games this year.
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 6:21 PM CST up reply actions
So you're saying the Oakland game plan is a solid one?
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
Exactly
Hit the nail on the head. 40+ yard completions are not indicative of a quarterbacks ability whatsoever.
by Max Schwager on Jan 16, 2012 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
I’d take Rivers over Eli. I think Eli would be in my 6-7 range though which is pretty good considering I HATE him. :-)
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
jee i would have never of known
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
That is fine with me ;)
And it does show as well. The only teams to represent the AFC for the Super Bowl have been: Colts, Steelers, and Patriots. Common denominator is the QB play of those teams (also defense).
That dog just won't hunt.
by Bush League All Star on Jan 12, 2012 8:54 PM CST up reply actions
gonna be the Ravens this year though, and they have Flacco at QB :|
doesn’t bode well for them in the SB
football does not build character, it reveals character.
I wish that Schaub was in for the Texans
I think they’d have a really good chance of beating the Ravens this weekend if he was in.
Garage sales drive me insane. What is that? I don't know. One man's junk is another man's junk.
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 13, 2012 12:52 AM CST up reply actions
If they had Schaub, Johnson, and Mario Williams all healthy all year
IMO they’d have been the top seed and gone to the Super Bowl.
With that defense, and that running game, and a top 10 QB like Schaub with Johnson and Daniels to throw to? They’d scare me way more than any of the other AFC teams
football does not build character, it reveals character.
I Think You Need Pure Passing Yards to Judge QBs
I think you need to adjust the numbers for pure passing yards. By this I mean the yards from the point the quarterback release the ball to the point the receiver catches the ball. This tells you how well the quarterback throws the ball and the true passing yards. The truth is that back in the 70’s and 80’s run after the catch yardage was not counted as passing yardage, only yardage the ball traveled in the air. Below is the total pure passing yardage for the top five playoff quarterbacks. I have also included pure passing yards per completion, yards after the catch, and percentage of the yardage each quarterback is credit with that is run after the catch.
Quarterback Pure Passing Yards Yard Completion Yards After Catch % of Passing YDS
Manning 2,958 8.3 1,975 40%
Brees 2,942 6.3 2,534 46%
Stafford 2,635 6.3 2,403 48%
Brady 2,531 6.3 2,704 52%
Rodgers 2,233 6.5 2,410 52%
I disagree
a QB who gets a lower percentage of yards after catch from his receivers is most likely putting the ball in a bad spot, whereas QBs like Rodgers and Brees and Brady who get a lot of YAC from their receivers, are putting the ball in the right spot, leading their receivers into open space where they can pick up YAC. Also, a higher YAC % of their passing yards implies that they are throwing to the open receiver more and less often into coverage.
Where a QB like Rodgers or Brees might get to their third or fourth read, find them open and make an accurate throw that allows for a lot of YAC, a lesser QB might force the ball to a less open first or second read, and put them in a position to take a big hit, or where they have no opportunity for YAC
football does not build character, it reveals character.
BUT LOOK, ELI'S #1 IN THIS STAT!
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
by Wiedmann on Jan 13, 2012 9:34 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
nice job
the comebacks is a little misleading on Rodgers part because more often than not, the defense let him down late, especially in 08 and 09 and this year the Packers only had to come from behind once all year.
The completion percentage: I can’t say much for all the other QBs, but I did an analysis a week ago on Rodgers vs Brees and if you look at the completion percentages down the field, Rodgers >> Brees. Brees is a great QB, however that completion percentage is heavily inflated by the fact that roughly 49% of his passes were targets that were within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage or behind the line of scrimmage. That’s roughly 6% higher than Rodgers, if you factor in that roughly 75% of Rodgers passes that were targeted from 10 yards or closer were completed, that means Rodgers completion percentage would be more like 73% on the season… by far better than anyone ever.
Before this season, IMO, Manning was closer to 10 than 5 in the QB ranks. However he did have a very nice season and his receivers did drop a lot of passes. But I want to see him reproduce this and improve before I put him in the top 5. From what I saw (which isn’t a ton, but as much or more than most outside of NY fans) he benefited greatly from 10-15 yard passes were the secondary completely fell apart and the WR would run 50 more yards for a TD, it all seemed kind of flukey to me. While it’s improved, he also needs to work on his 29:16 TD/INT ratio because that is fine, but not top 5/elite. Eli can make every single throw, he needs to do it more consistently IMO to be a top 5 guy.
REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.
He's also had a ton of beautifully thrown deep passes
Dropped. I’ve been critical of Eli in the past, but he’s done a lot of work with this season with nothing on the offensive line, and his number one receiver can’t seem to catch passes that are beneath a certain amount of difficulty. Nicks makes great plays, but he has way too many back-breaking drops for a number one receiver. And to his credit, Eli’s had little to work with. I mean, Nicks is great, and Cruz ain’t too shabby either. But Cruz is a UDFA who gets a lot of opportunities to make plays because Eli does a great job of getting him the ball in space.
Outside of that, Manningham (our 3rd WR) has been hurt for much of the year, and our tight end Ballard has made a couple big plays, but has been very inconsistent (and also injured). Also a UDFA.
As for Rodgers and Brees, I agree with you in the sense that Brees’ completion percentage is heavily inflated. That’s why the YPA statistic is so important. Also, Brees did a lot of throwing in the fourth quarter (despite the Saints usually having a large lead by then). That’s a stat I didn’t include. But with a huge lead in the fourth quarter, all throws are going to be high percentage on a beaten defense.
Rodgers completion percentage better than anyone ever? That’s hard to say. Passing statistics this season are inflated across the board. Will have to wait a couple years to see if this season will be an anomaly, or if passing stats continue to trend upward.
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
I think with a lot of great players you expect them not to drop them, but eventually, everybody does
Unless you’re Raymond Berry catching passes from Unitas [2 career dropped passes in 154 games].
Yes, they’re “easy to catch” by NFL standards, but you can’t crucify them for dropping balls from time to time. This goes for Hakeem Nicks as well as Jermichael Finley & James Jones.
13.
Build Lasers And Stuff For More Ownage, Dude!
the thing with Jones was that he dropped 5 sure touchdown passes last year
so they stuck in people’s memories. like the one in Philly that would have made it 21-3 at halftime? Huge. The one in the Super Bowl that would have made it 28-10 in the third? Huge. The one against the Jets that could have made it 13-0 in I think the third? Huge.
Those types of drops stick in people’s minds. But it is worth noting that the Packers won every one of the games he did that in.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
I know what he did
Some people wanted to get rid of him this offseason due to those drops. That’s what I meant about crucifying them. The fact that they were good enough to be in position to have the potential is enough of a positive that you can’t get on their case a whole lot because they dropped a couple. Obviously, we’d all like to have zero drops, but realistically, it’s too much to demand.
13.
Build Lasers And Stuff For More Ownage, Dude!
yeah, drops happen
I’d just rather see it happen on a short curl, or out, or in, or when he takes a hit… rather than on a play where he’s in the clear and Rodgers literally could not have handed it to him any better. Which was the case on all of those plays.
but shit happens, he’s still a great receiver, and he caught some tough ones as well to make up for it (the TD in Philly, the TD in Atlanta, that big third down in the Super Bowl that Rodgers threw almost into the turf)
football does not build character, it reveals character.
It's not just that either.
He would drop the easiest catches that would bring for sure TD’s, but then he’d go and make an incredible catch, making you wonder if his hands were like Jekyll and Hyde.
"The script doesn't change for us,… As long as we're taking care of things and keeping our focus on improving the quality of play, I don't think we can be beat. If you had asked me six years ago, I would have said the same damn thing. … We expect to win every time we take the field, and I would think that every team thinks the same thing." -Mike McCarthy
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 12, 2012 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
So he is basically Finley
REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.
Finley this year is what Jones was last year
Jones has done pretty well this year. Not nearly as many obvious drops
Garage sales drive me insane. What is that? I don't know. One man's junk is another man's junk.
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 12, 2012 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
he was playing
with broken bones in his hand last year, in fairness to him
REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.
Sounds like AB
People always get critical of Bradshaw and I have to remind them that the guy’s been running on broken bones in his feet, which is completely nuts.
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
I heard that a while back
and completely forgot about that. Definitely does make a lot of sense. I guess Finley just needs to put more stick-em on his gloves.
Garage sales drive me insane. What is that? I don't know. One man's junk is another man's junk.
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 13, 2012 12:53 AM CST up reply actions
Yes, as others have said,
I am aware of drops. Nicks just has that way about him. I think there’s big-time play-makers in all sports of this variety: make the most ridiculous of plays but can’t seem to come up with the easy ones.
I’m not crucifying Cruz and Nicks. But the fact that they are second and third year receivers shows once or twice a week, which hurts Eli’s numbers a bit.
All teams have drops. I just think people overlook the work that Eli has done with his young wide receivers because they have been so successful. He’s had very few bad throws this season. I’m not saying he’d be putting up numbers on par with Rodgers if Giants receivers weren’t dropping so many passes. Still, I don’t think he gets the credit for what he’s done with very few weapons.
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
Rodgers' receivers have dropped more balls this season than Eli's receivers.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
false
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
yeah, you're right, my bad.
didn’t realize the Giants receivers dropped so many.
Green Bay was still right near the top in dropped passes though, and Rodgers didn’t have nearly as many passing attempts as Eli.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
redacted ^
football does not build character, it reveals character.
True
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232
1 Cleveland Browns 43
2 Detroit Lions 37
3 Atlanta Falcons 36
4 St. Louis Rams 34
5 Philadelphia Eagles 33
6 Green Bay Packers 32
7 Baltimore Ravens 31
8 New York Giants 30
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
It's either true or false depending on your source.
Making it a pointless argument. It’s enough to say both teams had too many WR drops.
"We borrowed golf from the Scottish as we borrowed whiskey. Not because it is Scottish, but because it is good." Horace Hutchinson
No more score predictions...
I haven't seen any sources that have the Giants with more that GB
I have seen some where GB is #1, though.
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
Cruz is a fantastic receiver
he may have been a UDFA, but that has nothing to do with what he is now. He’s probably the deadliest after the catch runner in the NFL right now (aside from Darren Sproles, who’s not technically a receiver)
reminds me of a young Donald Driver.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
Trust me
I am a huge fan of Cruz. I am not knocking him for being a UDFA. Just pointing to the fact that Eli’s got numerous UDFAs around him, and he does a lot to make them look good (see: Ballard).
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
my point was that Cruz also does a lot to make Eli look good
like when he takes a five yard pass and turns it into a 70+ yard TD
or when he makes that ridiculous juggling catch down the sideline for a long TD
plus, his skills in the field of salsa dancing are unparalleled in today’s NFL
football does not build character, it reveals character.
He has MANY more 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks around him. I don’t see this UDFA talk. Its pretty much Cruz and Ballard. The rest of the guys came from the first three rounds. this is a weak comparison for you guys to keep talking about.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
We must be watching different teams!
Starting WR- Victor Cruz (UDFA)
Starting TE- Dave Ballard (UDFA) rookie
Starting FB- Henry Hynoski (UDFA) rookie
That’s 3/11 right there. Exceeds the number of first round picks we have starting:
Eli Manning
Hakeem Nicks
2/11
Second rounders:
Will Beatty (LT) been out for the season
David Baas © injured most of the season
Chris Snee (RG)
3/11
Third Rounders:
Kareem McKenzie (RT)
Mario Manningham (WR)
Oh, and I almost forgot
Ahmad Bradshaw (7th)
So, we’re talking about 36% of the starting offense, when completely healthy, being UDFA or a 7th round pick.
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
For the hell of it I'll do GB
First Round:
Aaron Rodgers
Brian Bulaga
Second Round:
Greg Jennings
Jordy Nelson
Chad Clifton
Third Round:
Jermichael Finley
Fourth Round:
Josh Sitton
TJ Lang
The rest:
Scott Wells (7th)
James Starks (6th)
John Kuhn (UDFA)
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
I guess that furthers my confusion as to what the hell this all means
Who cares when they were drafted, it’s how they play once they’re on the roster. Scott Wells is one of the best interior linemen in the league; it doesn’t matter than in 2004 he fell to the 7th round. Rodgers isn’t “making Scott Wells & John Kuhn better”, they’re playing better than their draft position independent of their QB. Donald Driver has over 10,000 career receiving yards, and he was drafted in the 7th round. The draft is a crapshoot, and the difference between being a 3rd round pick & a UDFA is not as wide of a margin as you might think.
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
by Wiedmann on Jan 13, 2012 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't use it as my argument
I just put it out there because somebody said the Giants had a number of picks in rounds 1-3 on their starting offense. Detroit spent many years picking in the top 10 with nothing to show for it.
But look at players at the skill positions. Any way you cut it, Green Bay has more talent at those positions than the Giants do.
I’m not saying Eli is going to put up Rodgers-like numbers in the same offense, just that he’s working with a little less this season and has played very well in spite of that.
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
I'd rather have an elite offensive line than elite receivers
Which, according to draft position, Eli has a much better OL than Rodgers.
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
Giants Oline if far from elite.
David Diehl (5th) Kevin Boothe (6th) Baas (2nd)Chris Snee (2nd) Kareem McKenzie(3rd)
PFF ranked this line bottom 5 in the league.
though im not sure what im arguing here.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
may be far from elite
still better than Green Bay’s has been this year by a fair margin.
Although now that they’re fully healthy we might see some improvement
football does not build character, it reveals character.
DD should be retired .. He rated out as the worse DL men in the whole game this yr. Boothe is a career backup playing because we lost Beatty at LT for the year. Snee is good but has had a really bad yr. McKenzie has been allowing Eli to get killed this yr.. He also wont be back next yr.
I dont know where u get ur info from but the Giants have a worse OLINE . hence the worse run game in the NFL this yr.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
The draft position, again, wasn't my argument
Packers have a much better offensive line than the Giants do. Eli has spent much of this season running for his life.
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
So 3 of 11 proves what?
And one of them is a FB? This is a garbage point man. Yeah and 7 of the 11 are in the first three rounds, that is a nice number, in fact the Packers only have 6 (thanks for the research) so you could argue (I guess) that Rodgers is doing even more with less then if we are using this way of thinking…
Heck some crackpot at ESPN is even trying to argue Eli has better WRs than Rodgers does: http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2011/story?id=7454014&slug=the-new-york-giants-wideouts-better-green-bay-packers-nfl&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl%2fplayoffs%2f2011%2fstory%3fid%3d7454014%26_slug_%3dthe-new-york-giants-wideouts-better-green-bay-packers-nfl
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I think there were 7 games in 08...
where Rodgers led them to tie or take the lead in the 4th qtr only to have the defense give it up. Plus another in 09.
Begin the countdown to 14:
3
yup, that happened far too often
then last year, the defense stepped up in most of those cases and that was the difference
football does not build character, it reveals character.
Interesting to put the guy who has won his last 4 playoff games
two spots ahead of the guy who has lost his last 3.
Eh.
I don’t know about Roethlisberger playing extremely well while injured. His decision to play the whole game against Cleveland was bona fide stupid considering the Steelers’ hopes of the #2 seed were pretty faint in Week 17. Unless Joe Flacco went FULL DERP MODE in that game, the Ravens weren’t losing to the Bengals.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog, and Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog
Whatever holds the image of an angel IS an angel. The eyes are not the windows of the soul, they are the doors.
Yes, I am on twitter.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Jan 12, 2012 5:49 PM CST reply actions
Probably not the smartest move
And his play while injured wasn’t phenomenal number-wise, but the fact that he still posted a solid season statistically while dealing with some serious injuries deserves some credit. High ankle sprain is tough for any athlete to play through.
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 6:22 PM CST up reply actions
The Ravens have had some very bad road games this year,
so I think it’s at least arguable that the Steelers had a chance to win the division week 17.
Although, the Steelers probably could’ve beat the Browns anyway, starting Charlie Batch. And certainly should’ve pulled Roethlisberger once it became clear Flacco wasn’t having one of “those” games.
by DaveInTucson on Jan 12, 2012 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
If not for the Kansas City game
would Rodgers have had a higher completion percentage than Brees? I know that Brees also had some bad games, so taking away one bad game isn’t completely fair. But Rodgers completion percentage was pretty high in all of his other games. In that one he completed less than half of his passes.
no, but it would have been very close.
If Rodgers’ receivers had dropped the same percentage of passes throughout the season as Brees’ receivers? Yes, he would probably have had an equal or higher completion rate.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
For the gazillionth time
Adjusted completion percentage: Factor out drops, spikes, and throwaways; Brees sits at 78.1%, and Rodgers at 79.4%. Rodgers was undoubtedly more on target than Brees was this year; There is absolutely no question about it.
15-1
Back on track to Super Bowl XLVI!
MattFlynn4StartingQB
dude, chill, I'm aware of adjusted completion percentage.
I just don’t buy into it when you include throwaways. Those happen because he can’t find anybody open so he avoids a negative play by throwing it out of bounds, obviously. But in most of those cases, Brees, instead of throwing it away, tries to throw it into a tighter window. And he completes a lot of passes that way (but he also throws a lot more picks because of that, yet another reason why Rodgers is superior, and why completion percentage is the least important of the efficiency statistics)
football does not build character, it reveals character.
You're the one who blew up thread.
Not me.
15-1
Back on track to Super Bowl XLVI!
MattFlynn4StartingQB
Curious to know
Where do you get these stats from?
Not trying to call you out or anything. I’ve just had a hard time finding stats on drops and so on. Don’t know why they don’t just count drops as an official stat to begin with.
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
it's hard to quantify drops
it’s like passed ball/wild pitch in baseball. Seemingly half of all the passed balls are really the pitchers fault.
There’s some obvious cases of drops, but in tough catches that the player should make (basically anything over his head or behind him) when do you rule it a drop and when a bad pass?
REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.
I rule it a drop it the receiver was not hit in those situations
if the receiver was hit hard, AND the throw was off, but he got his hands on it, it’s harder to consider that a drop
football does not build character, it reveals character.
profootballfocus
and Football Outsiders.
15-1
Back on track to Super Bowl XLVI!
MattFlynn4StartingQB
The clear winner in 2011 is Rodgers
What a pro. I just feel so confident with him at the helm.
If you look at 2009-2011, Rodgers has the strongest resume but it evens out a little.
Include 2008 and things level off a bit more.
I will say that Eli stacks up better then I thought he might. Stafford should certainly be included though. 40+ TD’s and 5000 yards is a big deal. And the chances are good that this was not his career year.
Nice post. Very bi-partisan.
twitter.com/AlfredAugust
by Tedaldtada29 on Jan 12, 2012 9:19 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
Stafford
Would be included in the conversation if he had some kind of postseason resume to look at. Winning playoff games (and preferably, a Super Bowl) is part of the criteria I included just to make this a little bit easier on myself.
Stafford will be in this conversation at some point.
by Max Schwager on Jan 12, 2012 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
If you're using Super Bowls as a determining factor,
then there are only five active SB winning QB’s if you take out Peyton. I’m not trying to knock your methodology or anything, but I’m curious as to why you used past success as a determining factor to compare them on this season.
Begin the countdown to 14:
3
My top five isn't based on this season alone
But past success has to factor into a top five comparison in some regard. The fact that I looked at numbers from this season was to simplify things a little bit. I could go and pile up stats from years past, but that’s where it gets a bit tedious.
Keep in mind that I am not using these stats to determine my top five, per say. It’s more of seeing what the top five has done this year, a year in which passing stats have gone through the roof. They all had great seasons, so I figured it would work well enough.
There’s also the stat on comeback victories over the past four years.
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 8:32 AM CST up reply actions
he also leans far too heavily on one target, something that is not true of any of the top five on your list
take away Calvin Johnson, and Stafford is a shell of what he’s been this year.
The same would not likely happen if you took away Nicks from Eli, Jennings from Rodgers (we saw him drop 5 TDs on Chicago without him), Graham from Brees (been putting up asinine numbers for a long time before Graham was in the picture), or Gronk/Welker from Brady.
It’s hard to give Stafford credit for a lot of the ridiculous plays Johnson makes when Stafford just chucks the ball up in his area. None of the other QBs on this list have receivers who make plays like that (except to some extent Jimmy Graham)
football does not build character, it reveals character.
I agree completely.
Stafford’s accuracy was in question quite a bit this year when it came to making needle-threading throws like Rodgers makes. He did rack up some serious yards this year, but his job was made a hell of a lot easier by one of the most freakish (if not THE most freakish) WR’s in the league who can just jump clear over everyone to get a ball that shouldn’t have been caught in the first place.
Garage sales drive me insane. What is that? I don't know. One man's junk is another man's junk.
by TXPackerBacker on Jan 13, 2012 12:56 AM CST up reply actions
"take away Calvin Johnson, and Stafford is a shell of what he’s been this year."
He does better than Manning or arguably Brady:
Brees without Graham: 4166, 35 TDs
Stafford without Johnson: 3,357, 25 TDs
Brady without Gronkowski: 3,908, 22 TDs
Manning without Cruz: 3,394 20 TDs
13.
Build Lasers And Stuff For More Ownage, Dude!
I don't knock Stafford for having Johnson
But you’re talking about having arguably the game’s best receiver. It’s really hard to say, which is why I leave Stafford in the “need more data” category. No denying he had an incredible season though.
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 8:22 AM CST up reply actions
Do you "need more data" on Kevin Kolb?
He has arguably the game’s best receiver, and threw for 1955, 9 TDs, 8 INTs
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
IN his defense, that is only in half a season. I am not defending him as anything more than an okay QB but those numbers are basically for 8 games of play and he played a bunch of the season injured and he did miss out on some of the easiest games in their schedule (2 of his 8 games were against Balt and Pitt)
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
He started 9 games
Here’s half of Stafford’s season:
2519, 21 TDs 8 INTs
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
That's a flawed argument
I shouldn’t even have to explain it, but because essentially a backup quarterback is working with the game’s best receiver doesn’t mean he is going to be top five.
Stafford is a top ten quarterback in the league, with the game’s best receiver. To put him in the top five category requires a little more than one great season.
And like I’ve said, it’s my top five. People can debate a top five list for days, and so we will likely have to agree to disagree.
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
It's as much of a flawed argument as saying Megatron is the reason Stafford is so good.
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
Maybe, but
if you watch Stafford he overthrows a lot of open guys, doesn’t excel at throwing the ball into tight spots (like Rodgers/Brees), and makes bad decisions late in games. I frequently find myself saying “Calvin Johnson is the only guy in the NFL who could have caught that pass.” Again, I don’t blame him for having Megatron but several of his TDs were of that variety for sure. I don’t think Matt’s ready to make the “elite” list, at least not at the expense of someone like Romo, E Manning, until I know that he can make reads and choose the open guy and make smarter decisions.
He kind of reminds me of early 2000s Daunte Culpepper to be honest, when he had Randy Moss…
by PackerFanInTN on Jan 13, 2012 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
No one's saying he's on Rodgers' & Brees' level
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
good comparison with Culpepper
put up great numbers with Moss, did shit all without him
football does not build character, it reveals character.
I’m pretty sure his catastrophic knee injury had a little more to do with it than losing Moss. Granted he wasn’t exactly playing great in his 6 games after Moss left, but still.
Can I get some hot sauce for my doughnut?
This
if you watch Stafford he overthrows a lot of open guys, doesn’t excel at throwing the ball into tight spots (like Rodgers/Brees), and makes bad decisions late in games. I frequently find myself saying "Calvin Johnson is the only guy in the NFL who could have caught that pass."
Agree here. He also makes some throws that have you saying “HOLY SHIT” to be fair. But yeah, I still think he’s got some more to prove before he’s considered top 5.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Jan 14, 2012 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
A guy on IRC one Sunday called those two "Calvin and lobs"
Megatron has more receiving yards as the Lions’ next two receivers combined (Pettigrew and Burleson), and more touchdowns than the next two guys combined (Young and Scheffler).
He was pretty much a quarter of the Lions offense this year.
by DaveInTucson on Jan 13, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
It would be
If that was my argument. I don’t know where I said that. But how can you consider a quarterback that’s played one full season, a top five quarterback? You can’t.
As for Calvin Johnson’s role in his success, it’s obvious it plays a role in the numbers. Is that a discredit to Stafford? Not at all.
But if you look at the numbers carefully instead of just taking note of one or two incredible stats, you get a different picture.
Attempts: 663 (1st)
Yards per attempts: 7.6 (13th)
1st down percentage: 36.7 (9th)
20+ yard completions: 64 (6th)
To put that in perspective, despite 150 more attempts, Cam Newton had more 20+ yard completions (65). Looks to me like a guy that might be getting a lot of long passes to a big-time receiver.
Calvin Johnson:
20+ yard receptions: 32 (1st)
Yards after the catch: 524 (8th)
When you are the league leader in receiving yards and receptions of 20+ yards, but only 8th in yards after the catch, it indicates going up and grabbing a lot of tough passes. If he was hit in stride more often, or if he got the ball in space, his YAC would be up more (in theory).
To offer another comparison:
Eli Manning
Attempts: 589
Yards per atempt: 8.3
Completions of 20+ yards: 67
Victor Cruz:
Receptions of 20+ yards: 25
Difference:
Eli had 42 completions of 20+ yards to other receivers on 74 less attempts.
Matthew Stafford had 32 completions of 20+ yards to receivers not named Calvin Johnson, despite throwing the ball more times than anybody in the league (Drew Brees included).
by Max Schwager on Jan 13, 2012 6:10 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe that speaks more about Eli's talent around him that multiple guys can get long passes.
Calvin is by far his best weapon, and he’s not THAT much better than Nicks. How many 20+ yard completions went to Hakeem Nicks?
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
that's a ridiculous line of argument
nobody is arguing that Matt Stafford isn’t head and shoulders above Kevin Kolb.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
by sheehan on Jan 13, 2012 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
but is Fitzgerald that much worse than Calvin Johnson?
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
I’d definitely say he’s worse. Maybe not by much but he’s still not as good imo.
And even if the two were even, you have to take into account the rest of the offenses then too. The Cardinals OL is horrible and they have no other receivers. The Lions OL is pretty solid and Pettigrew, Burleson, and Scheffler were all viable weapons.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Jan 14, 2012 12:21 AM CST up reply actions
this is a good point as well
and neither team had much of a running game to speak of
football does not build character, it reveals character.
I don't think he is, I think they're roughly equal although Johnson is faster
but I don’t see the point you’re trying to make, it makes no sense given that everyone is aware of Stafford being far superior to Kolb or any other QB on Arizona
football does not build character, it reveals character.
Kolb is what happens when you don't have an elite QB throwing to a great weapon.
The way some of you are talking about Stafford, I wonder if you think he’s better than Kolb.
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
I just said he's head and shoulders above Kolb and easily top ten
he’s just not quite at the top level yet. Has done it for only one season, and leaning extremely heavily on one player and what he forces the defense to do which opens things up for other receivers.
He’s good, and better than a guy like Kolb, by a mile, but he’s not, IMO, shown that he’s better than guys like Rivers, Eli, or Roethlisberger yet (personally I put Cutler in this group as well, but people just generally dismiss him because his most recent numbers don’t stack up as well, and he plays for Chicago, ignoring the fact that he has no offensive line and no receivers or tight ends).
As of right now, he’s just behind Tony Romo (and if you’ve read some of my other comments you know I think Romo is a very good QB), because he’s won in the regular season, made a playoff trip, and put up big numbers along the way, but he hasn’t done it for several consecutive years like Romo.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
you completely misinterpreted the point I was making.
All of those other QBs have proven over a long period of time that they can be great with or without those great receivers. There was a long stretch where Brady had Branch as his number 1 receiver and we all saw how terrible he was without Brady throwing him the ball when he went to Seattle. Eli has won a Super Bowl before Cruz or Nicks were in the picture. Brees was great in New Orleans when he was throwing to a bunch of no names in 2006.
Stafford has never achieved anything close to this prior to this year, and it’s hard to put him on the same level as those other guys when he has a receiver making freak plays that no other receiver in the NFL can make.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
Interesting take on Rodgers here
Somebody brought this to my attention. Written last year, the thing I find most interesting is that Rodgers is just shy of Favre when it comes to fourth quarter comeback percentages.
They also adjust then numbers to account for games in which a quarterback leads a 4QC to have their defense blow it.
Eli had put up a legit QB elite season
but it’s just this one season he put it all together. Is that really enough to propel him above Roethlisberger who has been 2 three super bowls and is generally consistent and Rivers who has been putting up great numbers for most of his career?
Rex Ryan: "There’s no way that we’re looking to replace Mark Sanchez"
Patriots Nation: "Thank God"
Giants Fans: "FOUR MORE YEARS!! FOUR MORE YEARS!!"
by Chris Kole on Jan 13, 2012 3:32 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
no, reasonably it's probably not enough.
football does not build character, it reveals character.
How soon people forget
2008:60.3pct 3238yds 21td 10int
2009:62.3pct 4021yds 27td 14int
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
2008 was a good year not ELITE
2009 Eli was very inconsistent. The Giants didn’t make playoffs that year and Eli’s inconsistency was a big reason why. Eli wasn’t the biggest reason or the only reason that they missed the playoffs, but he deserves a lot of the blame.
Rex Ryan: "There’s no way that we’re looking to replace Mark Sanchez"
Patriots Nation: "Thank God"
Giants Fans: "FOUR MORE YEARS!! FOUR MORE YEARS!!"
How soon Giants fans would like to forget
2010:62.9pct 4002yds 31td 25int
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
This is a great point. Eli has shown how good he can be in his career but he’s also usually been good for a few absolutely terrible games too. This year he didn’t have those games.
Though, I don’t know that I’d put Roethlisberger above him. I think people overrate him at times because of the SB wins. Not that he shouldn’t get credit for them (he had a fantastic GW drive vs. Arizona) but I think having the league’s best defense probably has helped him out.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Jan 14, 2012 12:29 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree, I think Roethlisberger would be a great QB on any team
his YPA has been at or near the top of the league every year since he came in, he extends plays behind a below average line, and he wins games. When he has to put up points to do that, he usually does (remember the 2009 game against the Packers and their top 5 defense?)
football does not build character, it reveals character.
He certainly extends a lot of plays in the pocket.
13.
In '62, Green Bay's 7th Championship season, the Packers took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and lost. In '11 they took a 10-0 record into Detroit on Thanksgiving, and got it right this time.
In '07, the Packers hosted a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and lost. In '11 they host a playoff game against a Giants team that they had defeated during the regular season, and, again, we’re gonna get it right this time!"
I think Big Ben is a bit overrated too. Not to mention I Think he hurt his team by playing the few games when he clearly wasn’t himself.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I think blame goes to the coach for that
Those guys are never going to sit themselves out, its up to the coach to tell him to sit.
Go Giants!
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
Stats to indicate Eli might be in your top five
(2011)
Yards: 4,933 (4th)
Yards per attempt: 8.4 (4th)
Completions of 20+ yards: 67 (4th)
Completions of 40+ yards: 18 (1st)
Eli had more 20+ yard completions than: Everybody not named Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, or Tom Brady
Eli’s leading receivers in 2011 (20+ yard receptions):
Victor Cruz: 25 (3rd)
Hakeem Nicks: 17 (17th)
40+ yard receptions:
Victor Cruz: 9 (2nd)
Hakeem Nicks: 5 (9th)
(2010)
Yards: 4,002 (5th)
Yards per atempt: 7.4 (9th)
Completions of 20+ yards: 57 (3rd)
Completions of 40+ yards: 7 (17th)
Eli had more 20+ yard completions than: Everybody not named Matt Schaub or Philip Rivers
Eli’s leading receivers in 2010 (20+ yard receptions):
Hakeem Nicks: 20 (5th)
Mario Manningham: 19 (6th)
40+ yard receptions:
Mario Manningham: 4 (11th)
Hakeem Nicks: 1 (61st)
(2009)
Yards: 4,021 (10th)
Yards per attempt: 7.9 (8th)
Completions of 20+ yards: 60 (5th)
Completions of 40+ yards: 12 (7th, tied with Tom Brady and Philip Rivers)
Eli had more 20+ yard completions than: Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Jay Cutler, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady
Eli had more 40+ yard completions than: Drew Brees, Peyton Manning
Eli’s leading receivers in 2009 (20+ yard receptions):
Mario Manningham: 15 (13th)
Steve Smith: 14 (20th)
40+ yard receptions:
Hakeem Nicks: 5 (9th)
Mario Manningham: 2 (41st)
He is consistently up there in downfield throws
And 2011 is the first year that the Giants have a YAC receiver in the top 10 (or anywhere close). The Pats have three such receivers this year (Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez).
by Max Schwager on Jan 16, 2012 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
he's also consistently up there in INTs though...
not necessarily disagreeing with you, but when you chuck a lot of balls down the field you open yourself up to a lot more turnovers than when you pick your spots throwing deep like Rodgers and Brady do
football does not build character, it reveals character.
Granted
You bring up a valid argument. I can’t really excuse the 2010 season because of tipped balls. The interception count was still too high. Still, I think that the added pressure of an offensive line that was a shell of its former self, along with an extremely young receiving corps had something to do with it.
Brady also has had one of the most talented receiving groups since 2007 (during and post-Randy Moss). Rodgers has had great weapons, but they do seem to drop quite a few passes. Still, when they are clicking, as we’ve seen, nearly unstoppable.
And that’s where I think a guy like Wes Welker doesn’t get nearly enough credit, because he consistently leads the league in catches and YAC, and his hands are like magnets. Even in traffic, you never expect him to drop a pass.
So, I’d say it’s a lot easier to pick your spots when you have confidence in your receivers, and when you have guys that can create separation. Great route-runners are always underrated. Giants have developed some much needed talent in that department.
by Max Schwager on Jan 16, 2012 9:56 PM CST up reply actions
also a good point.
I would expect Eli’s numbers to continue to improve if Nicks, Cruz and Manningham continue to progress the way they have this year
football does not build character, it reveals character.
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